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    Default Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    This was just a thing I thought would be funny, and decided to do it. I almost wonder whether or not it's playable.

    Most magi advance quickly from the point where a Ray of Frost is the answer to all life's problems, and for a Cleric, the ability to create water is the most interesting of these lesser powers. However, there are some who never quite make it past this basic hurdle - so lost are they in a kind of perfectionism that forces them to work to learn everything there is to know about this level of spells before moving to the next, that they are stuck eternally refining their cantrip-wielding might.

    They are the cantrip magi, and they know no bounds!


    The Cantrip Mage
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    Cantrips Known
    Cantrips Per Day
    Maximum Metamagic
    1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Cantrips
    6
    8
    0
    2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Metamagic Feat, Automatic Metamagic
    7
    11
    1
    3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Heights of Power +1
    8
    14
    1
    4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Unlimited Power! x2
    9
    17
    1
    5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Metamagic Feat
    10
    20
    2
    6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Heights of Power +2
    11
    23
    2
    7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Piercing Power
    12
    26
    2
    8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Metamagic Feat
    13
    29
    3
    9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Heights of Power +3
    14
    32
    3
    10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Unlimited Power! x4
    15
    35
    3
    11th +5 +3 +3 +7 Metamagic Feat
    16
    38
    4
    12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Heights of Power +4
    17
    41
    4
    13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Replication x2
    18
    44
    4
    14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Metamagic Feat
    19
    47
    5
    15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Heights of Power +5
    20
    50
    5
    16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Unlimited Power! x8
    21
    53
    5
    17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Metamagic Feat
    22
    56
    6
    18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Heights of Power +6
    23
    59
    6
    19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Replication x3
    24
    62
    6
    20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Ultimate Arcane Might, Metamagic Feat
    25
    65
    7
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d4

    Class Skills:
    The cantrip mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency
    Cantrip magi are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a cantrip mage’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.

    Cantrips
    Cantrip magi can cast zero-level arcane spells, or cantrips, from any spell list. Regardless of which spell list they're drawn from, they're still arcane spells. They learn spells in a similar manner to a sorcerer. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a cantrip is 10, plus the cantrip mage's intelligence modifier, plus the spell's level (for example if the cantrip has been heightened).

    Each level, they may swap out a single cantrip for another one, as well as learning a new one.

    A cantrip mage's number of cantrips known and cantrips per day are given on Table: The Cantrip Mage. She gets a number of bonus cantrips per day equal to her intelligence modifier.

    Automatic Metamagic
    From second level, and every third level thereafter, the cantrip mage can apply a single level's worth of metamagic to each and every cantrip she casts. For example, a second-level cantrip mage can apply the Still spell metamagic to all her cantrips. A fifth-level cantrip mage can apply Still spell and Silent spell, or Empower spell, for example.

    These metamagics can either be those she has the feats for, or additional metamagics enabled through class features. She learns a new metamagic feat, to apply to her cantrip mage cantrips only, at second level, and every third level thereafter. If she actually acquires the feat in earnest, she can swap this ability to a new type of metamagic immediately.

    Heights of Power
    Every third level, the effective spell level of the cantrip mage's cantrips increases by 1.

    Unlimited power!
    At fourth level, and every sixth level afterwards, any numerical restrictions on a spell - including range and duration - are doubled (Or halved, if appropriate, as chosen when casting). For example, if a 4th-level cantrip mage casts Detect Magic, the cone is 120 feet, she may concentrate up to 8 minutes, and she only needs to concentrate one round to gain two rounds's worth of information. The spell is stopped by two feet of stone, two inches of steel, a thin sheet of lead or 6 feet of wood or dirt. If she casts Mage Hand, the range is 70 feet, and the hand can lift 10 lb, propelling it up to 30 feet.

    She doesn't have to double the range of a line or cone, or similar effect. She can choose, when she reaches the requisite level, whether to double the range, or multiply it by four, or by eight, or not at all.

    Also, any numerical bonuses or penalties given by a spell are also multiplied in the same way.

    Further, from fourth level, the cantrip mage no longer suffers any restrictions on how much a spell can be affected by caster level. For example, a 6th-level caster casting Ghost Sound would normally be limited to the noise of 20 humans. However, for a cantrip mage, the limit is lifted, increasing the number to 24 (Which is then doubled as normal).

    Piercing Power
    From 7th level, the cantrip mage's spells ignore spell resistance.

    Replication
    At thirteenth level, the cantrip mage can choose to copy any spell she casts. She can choose new targets for the copy. From nineteenth level, she can copy any spell she casts up to twice. In any case, this doesn't take an action to do. She can't copy a copy.

    Ultimate Arcane Might!
    At twentieth level, the cantrip mage decides she's learnt all she can learn about cantrips, and starts moving onto first-level spells. She learns three first-level spells, and can cast them from her five new first-level spell slots (which can also be used to hold cantrips with an eighth level of metamagic on). She doesn't get bonus first-level spell slots for a high intelligence modifier.

    She can use all her cantrip abilities on her first-level spells as well. For example, if she casts Burning Hands, it does 20d4 points of damage in a 120 foot cone, and can have 7 levels of metamagic on it. It counts as a 7th-level spell.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2015-09-27 at 06:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Well, to be honest, I love the idea a lot. A 'perfectionist' mage who has to master all the 0-Levels before he can move on, and in a way develops his own style of spell-slinging. That's really interesting to me.

    But how does this class work? I mean, put it in combat, and what does it do? Cast Ray of Frost? Shot from 600 Feet away, Empowered and Maximised and Split, Ray of Frost is still 8 damage. 4 if you only land one touch attack. The Replication feature is very vague, and even if you're trying to say that the caster can cast any of his spells three times with one daily use and the action it would take to cast one, that's an absolute upper maximum of 24 Cold damage. Am I missing something?

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by manwithaplan View Post
    Am I missing something?
    Fell. Drain.

    Also, there must be a way to cheat Explosive Spell onto Detect Magic, right?

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Also, there must be a way to cheat Explosive Spell onto Detect Magic, right?
    I think the same combo works here as the Locate City Bomb.

    Take the Snowcasting feat, which grants a spell the [Cold] descriptor if you have snow or ice on hand to use as a material component.

    Take the Frost Flash Spell feat, which is a +1 metamagic. It adds a small amount of cold damage to [Cold] spells with an area.

    Take the Energy Substitution (Electricity) feat, which is a +0 metamagic. It allows you to change the energy descriptor and damage type of a spell from whatever it normally is to Electricity.

    Take the Born of Three Thunders feat, which is a +0 metamagic. It allows you to change the energy descriptor and damage type of an Electricity or Sonic spell to be both Electricity AND Sonic. More importantly, it forces a Fortitude save against being stunned, and a Reflex save against being knocked prone.

    Take the Explosive Spell feat, which is a +2 metamagic. It only effects spells with an area that force a Reflex save, so you've got to have a Snowcasted Frost Flash Electricity Substituted Born of Three Thunders Detect Magic first, to make a Snowcasted Frost Flash Electricity Substituted Born of Three Thunders Explosive Detect Magic.

    Now you can stare at people so hard that they explode. Its only a 3rd level spell at this point, so I don't see why you shouldn't put Still and Silent on it (which also increases its damage via Frost Flash?), so you can cause people to explode and hurdle through the air for seemingly no reason just by looking vaguely in their general direction.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    you can cause people to explode and hurdle through the air for seemingly no reason just by looking vaguely in their general direction.
    Okay, this made me giggle. Good work.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Well, yeah, you made a full caster that can sort of make a Locate City bomb. There's a few of those in the Player's Handbook, too.

    Fell Drain is clever and a bit simpler, but 1. Immunity to Energy Drain is a thing and 2. That is some serious Feat Tax. Really, it makes Natural Spell look like Toughness.

    Again, I love the idea here, and I really want it to work! But...outside of repetitive tricks, I don't think it does yet. I think that specific spells need to be improved in specific ways. So, take everything that does 1 die of damage, and change it to 1 die per level. Take everything with a HD Limit, make it equal to the Cantrip Mage's HD or the original number, whichever is greater. You get me? Now you have a class that can affect the game without a feat.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by manwithaplan View Post
    Take everything with a HD Limit, make it equal to the Cantrip Mage's HD or the original number, whichever is greater.
    Bear in mind you are multiplying it by 8, eventually.

    Which means that at 20th level, that is gonna be one hell of a colour spray.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    As a Cantrip Fiend I love this
    Spoiler: A Little About Me
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Hope I won't incur too much wrath for necro-ing this thread what do you mean by copy a spell?

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Does replication basically let you double and triple cast the spell in the same action?
    Last edited by nikkoli; 2015-09-25 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Hey, I have thread ownership here. Command unthread!

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli View Post
    Does replication basically let you double and triple cast the spell in the same action?
    Yeah.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    This is sweet! I love the concept of using cantrips to smite your enemies.
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    My only problem with this class (because I've tried a few times to make a Cantrip mage), is that they have a limited number of cantrips per day! Don't all Arcane casters get infinite cantrips per day? I mean sure, they can only prepare/memorize a few at once, but they can still cast them ad infinitem. Why doesn't the cantrip mage get this basic right?
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    My only problem with this class (because I've tried a few times to make a Cantrip mage), is that they have a limited number of cantrips per day! Don't all Arcane casters get infinite cantrips per day? I mean sure, they can only prepare/memorize a few at once, but they can still cast them ad infinitem. Why doesn't the cantrip mage get this basic right?
    Not in 3.5. Sadly.
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Not in 3.5. Sadly.
    Yeah, in PF you should feel free to spam cantrips until you're blue in the face.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    What happens when you cast resistance while level 20 in this class?
    Do you give +8 resistance bonus to saves to the target?

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    What happens when you cast resistance while level 20 in this class?
    Do you give +8 resistance bonus to saves to the target?
    No. The +1 bonus is numerical, but it isn't a restriction. It's not affected by Unlimited Power!

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    What does ultimate power do for things life ray of frost?

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli View Post
    What does ultimate power do for things life ray of frost?
    If you mean Unlimited Power!, it increases the range and nothing else.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Meanwhile Ultimate arcane might(which is also a thing) allows you to cast three level 1 spells with all the cantrips bonuses and so you can add one level of meta-magic to some of your rays of frost by using up your precious level 1 slots.
    Last edited by noob; 2015-09-27 at 02:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    You refer to the Cantrip Mage as a Warp Mage in a few places.

    Unlimited Power is also a bit wonky. As written, it only affects restrictions of the cantrips, not any bonuses they might give. So Guidance is going to give you a +1 bonus regardless.

    So maybe a note that any non-variable, numeric bonuses or penalties created by a cantrip receive the same multiplier?
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    You refer to the Cantrip Mage as a Warp Mage in a few places.

    Unlimited Power is also a bit wonky. As written, it only affects restrictions of the cantrips, not any bonuses they might give. So Guidance is going to give you a +1 bonus regardless.

    So maybe a note that any non-variable, numeric bonuses or penalties created by a cantrip receive the same multiplier?
    There was one place that I saw, which I fixed.

    Maybe, yeah. I guess I thought that might get a bit OP, but it's not like a +8 to all saves for a little while is going to destroy everything.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Maybe, yeah. I guess I thought that might get a bit OP, but it's not like a +8 to all saves for a little while is going to destroy everything.
    Resistance bonuses usually cap at +5 pre-epic, though, so you may want to reduce the multiplier to x4 or x5 for non-variable, non-restriction numeric effects.
    Last edited by Network; 2015-09-27 at 11:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    Resistance bonuses usually cap at +5 pre-epic, though, so you may want to reduce the multiplier to x4 or x5 for non-variable, non-restriction numeric effects.
    Superior ResistanceSpC grants a +6 resistance bonus for 24 hours and is a (iirc) 6th level spell. Where this would be +8 for 8 minutes.
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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    So Unlimited Power! With your first level spells let's you use them with a x8 to any level based variables? So the standard CLd4 (cap of 5) for burning hands turns into the 20d4 you have listed or would it be 40d4 or 5d4x8 or am I just confused on what applies where?

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli View Post
    So Unlimited Power! With your first level spells let's you use them with a x8 to any level based variables? So the standard CLd4 (cap of 5) for burning hands turns into the 20d4 you have listed or would it be 40d4 or 5d4x8 or am I just confused on what applies where?
    Burning hands "no longer suffers any restrictions on how much a spell can be affected by caster level" but because damage isn't "any numerical restrictions on a spell" or " numerical bonuses or penalties given by a spell", it's not multiplied up.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    but you get three casts at once per cast so you deal a total of 60d4 damage each time(or more with metamagics) but it is still not as much cool as T1 omnipotence.

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    Default Re: Fear the wrath of cantrips, fool! (3.5 class, PEACH)

    Aaaa. Thanks for clarification. Time for some shenanigans. I'll tell you how the detect magic bomb goes.

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