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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Jun 2012

    Default Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    I don't remember all of the forum code and my tablet doesn't like to play nice with all of the buttons, so this conversion is going to be written without fancy tables and formatting. I also don't know much of the class' fluff, so I'm sticking to the crunch. If anyone wants to redo this with the proper code and fluff, be my guest. It's built on a Sorcerer chassis, with tweaks to make it closer to a War Cleric.

    Favored Soul

    Hit Die: 1d8

    Proficiencies
    Armor: light and medium armor, shields
    Weapons: all simple
    Saving Throws: Constitution, Charisma
    Skills: Arcana, History, Insight, Perception, Persuasion, Religion (choose 2)

    Multiclass Prerequisite: Charisma 13
    Multiclass Proficiencies: as Cleric

    Spellcasting Type: Full Spontaneous
    Spell List: Cleric
    Spellcasting Ability: Charisma
    Cantrips Known: as Cleric
    Spells Known: as Bard, minus Magical Secrets (4 at 1st/16 at 20th)
    Spellcasting Focus: Holy symbol

    Divinely Chosen: 1st level. Gain Celestial language. Double proficiency bonus to Charisma checks when interacting with celestials and clergy.

    Favored Weapon: 1st level. Gain proficiency with weapon of choice.

    Font of Divinity: 2nd level. Reskin of Font of Sorcery. Can also spend SP to cast Cure Wounds/Healing Word without using a spell slot according to slot creation costs.

    Divine Weapon: 3rd level. Spend 3 SP to cast Magic Weapon on Favored Weapon you wield without using a spell slot. Doesn't count against concentration spell limit, as if cast via Twinned Spell, but ends via failed concentration check or weapon leaving your possession for more than a round. Can spend 3 SP to increase spell level by 2 at 7th/11th level. Max 1 weapon.

    ASI: 4th/8th/12th/16th/19th level

    Divine Flurry: 6th level. Can spend 1 SP when taking Attack action with Favored Weapon to make a second attack. 1/turn. Doesn't stack with Extra Attack.

    Divine Resistance: 7th level. Choose one of the following damage types when gaining this ability: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder. Spend 1 SP as action to gain damage resistance to chosen type for 1 hour. Choose an additional damage type at 12th/17th level. Max 1 active type.

    Improved Divine Weapon: 10th level. Can spend 2 SP when hitting with Favored Weapon to add damage equal to Charisma modifier. Damage type based on Divine Resistance choice, if active. Otherwise, damage type is that of Favored Weapon.

    Favored Flight: 14th level. Reskin of Dragon Wings.

    Divine Resilience: 18th level. Spend 3 SP as action to gain damage resistance to B/P/S from nonmagical/nonsilvered weapons for 1 minute.

    Divine Restoration: 20th level. Reskin of Sorcerous Restoration.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2015-02-22 at 12:16 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    Spells Known: as Bard, minus Magical Secrets (start 4/end 16)
    Nope. This right here turned me off to the entire thing.
    Favored Souls were excellent blasters (as much as any class was a decent blaster in 3.x). The Bard spell list has zero blasting capability.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    Nope. This right here turned me off to the entire thing.
    Favored Souls were excellent blasters (as much as any class was a decent blaster in 3.x). The Bard spell list has zero blasting capability.
    What I meant by Spells Known was the number, not the source. It uses the Cleric spell list.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Ah, spell list: Cleric. Yeah, I missed that. My bad.
    But then you're making a "divine" sorc with a lot more spells known. I'd just stick with the sorc chassis, like you've done with everything else.
    The potency of metamagic is tempered by the lesser spells known. They know less spells, but they can do more with the ones that they know. Your build removes that balancing factor.

    Unless they don't get any meta, and they spend all of their SP on the other abilities shown?
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-20 at 03:54 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Correct, there is no metamagic. Points are spent to fuel abilities and create spell slots. Metamagic abilities are replaced by Favored Weapon, Divine Resistance, and Divine Resilience. Favored Weapon is my attempt to mix the Sorcerer's ability to break the concentration limit via Twinned Spell with the 3.5 Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization feats. The other two are adapting the ER/DR of the original FS to 5e standards, using Elemental Affinity as the base. Removing the always-on aspect of DR allowed it to fit in the 18th level slot, so I could keep the Sorcerer capstone.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    In that case, I think the 'per hour' abilities should be changed to 'per minute' instead. Basically that would limit it to one use per combat, rather than the possibility of one use covering multiple combats.
    Without that change, those abilities would basically always be on. By changing it, you would need to ration their use or blow slots to get more, which is kind of the point.
    And Favored Flight should come with an SP cost as well, but that one could be per hour.
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-20 at 04:20 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    The duration of the resistance abilities is the same as Elemental Affinity, which is only a 6th level ability. Favored Weapon is still susceptible to concentration checks. If you look at the Sorcerer's origin abilities, you'll see that they have similar effects as certain spells. I believe that this was done to shore up the limited amount of spells known, similar to the intention of Invocations and Magical Secrets. That's why I'm okay with leaving all of those abilities as-is, as I feel they reflect that design scheme. Although I will increase the cost of Divine Resilience to 3 SP.

    Also, a +3 Favored Weapon costs 9 SP to activate. Keep that in mind as well.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2015-02-20 at 04:41 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    The duration of the resistance abilities is the same as Elemental Affinity, which is only a 6th level ability. Favored Weapon is still susceptible to concentration checks. If you look at the Sorcerer's origin abilities, you'll see that they have similar effects as certain spells. I believe that this was done to shore up the limited amount of spells known, similar to the intention of Invocations and Magical Secrets. That's why I'm okay with leaving all of those abilities as-is, as I feel they reflect that design scheme.
    Yes, but those abilities don't require SP to use for a Sorc. A Sorc uses his SP for Metamagics.
    With your concept, the SP are going to linger, and you'll have enough to both power all of the abilities that you want, plus enough left over to create spell slots whenever you need them.
    That's OP.
    You should have to choose, just like a Sorc has to choose between Metas and extra slots.

    By giving them such long durations, you are removing the need to make that choice. And that makes it too powerful.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    You're forgetting that most combats don't occur within an hour of each other. Given the average adventuring day of 4-6 encounters and 1-2 short rests, the most overlap that you'd get is two minor combats. If your group is running multiple major combats within the same in-game hour, the problem lies with your DM and not the duration of my abilities.

    FS also lacks ritual casting, placing a demand on SP to recover spell slots for utility spells. Combine that with the increased risk of losing concentration by being a frontline class, and you should see the greater potential demand of SP offsets the surplus in the SP supply created by removing metamagic. It may seem OP on a whiteboard, but actually balances itself out once RNGesus gets involved.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    I think it looks decent, however the SP usage seems odd to me. This looks like it expects a significant amount of SP to be spent on favored weapon, but the moment you find a magic weapon as treasure, that ability becomes useless. Without that ability putting a drain on your SP, you end up only needing 4SP/hour to maintain the other abilities. 5 hours per day of coverage will likely cover most combats.

    The other thing to consider is that any ability to bypass the concentration 'slot' limit on spells is considered game breaking by the designers. (I personally think its fine in this instance, but many others won't.)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by xyianth View Post
    I think it looks decent, however the SP usage seems odd to me. This looks like it expects a significant amount of SP to be spent on favored weapon, but the moment you find a magic weapon as treasure, that ability becomes useless. Without that ability putting a drain on your SP, you end up only needing 4SP/hour to maintain the other abilities. 5 hours per day of coverage will likely cover most combats.

    The other thing to consider is that any ability to bypass the concentration 'slot' limit on spells is considered game breaking by the designers. (I personally think its fine in this instance, but many others won't.)
    Remember that the uncertain availability of magic items in 5e means that they shouldn't be a factor in class design. Also, the magic weapon in question would have to be the same type as the proficiency gained by Divinely Chosen to render Favored Weapon moot. Your SP consumption model fails to factor in that a FS is likely to be the primary healer in most parties. A portion of the SP budget should be set aside to replenish spell slots expended on supporting the party. Admittedly, SP has more use out of combat for a FS than a Sorcerer, but I don't see that as a problem. It's just a fundamental difference between combat casters and support casters.

    As for concentration limit bypass, the Sorcerer already has one via Twinned Spell. Therefore, the designers made a precedent in how to exceed the limit without breaking the game. Favored Weapon is essentially a twinned magic weapon that has even more restrictions than a normal twinned spell. Plus it's still subject to concentration failure, removing any guarantee of full duration.

    All in all, I designed this to fall somewhere in between clerics and paladins. Part of the reason it may look OP is because I used my experience as an AL DM to gauge the practicality of the design instead of pure theorycraft.

    Edit: Just added a line to Divine Resistance to clarify that it's 1 SP per type resisted. Should make the SP budget a little clearer.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2015-02-20 at 01:01 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    Your SP consumption model fails to factor in that a FS is likely to be the primary healer in most parties. A portion of the SP budget should be set aside to replenish spell slots expended on supporting the party.
    But that's the thing. Like I said, with your hour long buffs design, you don't *have* to set anything aside for that, because your abilities last long enough that it will be set aside by default.
    A Sorcerer has to "set some aside" if he's going to want more slots.
    Your Favored Soul does not.
    That's what's wrong with it. There's no choice required. It's supposed to be about resource management, but you removed that aspect. There should be a choice required.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    But that's the thing. Like I said, with your hour long buffs design, you don't *have* to set anything aside for that, because your abilities last long enough that it will be set aside by default.
    A Sorcerer has to "set some aside" if he's going to want more slots.
    Your Favored Soul does not.
    That's what's wrong with it. There's no choice required. It's supposed to be about resource management, but you removed that aspect. There should be a choice required.
    I just adapted the PF Oracle's free cure spells into a SP ability to make Font of Divinity more unique. Granting access to both Cure Wounds and Healing Word is akin to a specialized Quicken Spell.

    In terms of resource management, the FS' challenge lies primarily within its spells known. The cleric spell list has more utility than the sorcerer, which makes the FS have to weigh their options' longevity with greater scrutiny. If you look at the total spells known, the FS has one less cantrip and one more leveled spell than a sorcerer. I understand the SP issue, but I think you're overlooking the SK issue.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Do not attempt to balance anything in 5e against something in Pathfinder. Pathfinder is more broken than 3.x was in terms of power gaming.

    And I'm overlooking the SK issue? You mean spells known?
    Because your FS gets 50% more spells than the class it's based on.
    I didn't overlook it. I just didn't mention it.
    I'm not overlooking it. I'm reading it the opposite way than you are.
    SK is an issue, but it's an issue because you have too many, not because they don't get enough.
    Sorc knows 15 spells. Bard knows 22. How is that "one less leveled spell?"
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-20 at 02:11 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    Do not attempt to balance anything in 5e against something in Pathfinder. Pathfinder is more broken than 3.x was in terms of power gaming.

    And I'm overlooking the SK issue? You mean spells known?
    Because your FS gets 50% more spells than the class it's based on.
    I didn't overlook it. I just didn't mention it.
    I'm not overlooking it. I'm reading it the opposite way than you are.
    SK is an issue, but it's an issue because you have too many, not because they don't get enough.
    Sorc knows 15 spells. Bard knows 22. How is that "one less leveled spell?"
    Once again, you misread the math. Bard - Magical Secrets = 22 - 6 = 16. Description of Magical Secrets states that they are included in the table.

    How does my class have too many spells known? Before weighing in the spell equivalence/access of other class features, this is how my FS compares to clerics and sorcerers, in terms of spells known/prepared.

    Cleric: 5 cantrips/25 spells
    FS: 5 cantrips/16 spells
    Sorc: 6 cantrips/15 spells

    Now let's weigh those FS and Sorc class features.

    Font of Divinity: +2 SK
    Draconic Resilience: +1 equivalent (Mage Armor)
    Favored Weapon: +1
    Metamagic: +1.5 equivalent (open-ended bending action/concentration economy is pretty powerful)
    Elemental Affinity/Divine Resistance: +1 equivalent (Protection from Energy)
    Dragon Wings/Favored Flight: +1equivalent
    Draconic Presence: +1 equivalent (AoE enchantment)
    Divine Resilience: +1 equivalent (nonmagical damage resistance)

    Add those to the previous numbers.

    Cleric: 5 cantrips/35 spells
    FS: 5 cantrips/22 spells
    Sorc: 6 cantrips/20.5 spells

    I don't see how out of balance my FS is in that regard, but I welcome any detailed proof to the contrary. As for adapting PF to 5e, I wouldn't touch most of it with a 10' pole. The only reason I used the Oracle ability was because it was essentially a precursor to the way 5e changed spell levels, thus not really adding the 9 spells known that PF does.

    Edit: Final Cleric number adjusted for domain spells.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2015-02-20 at 03:02 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    So you're subtracting the 2 spells learned from the Bard's chart each time Magical Secrets is gained?
    Then it's no longer using the Bard chart. Because the Bard chart learns 22 spells.
    Magical Secrets is a feature that allows a Bard to choose any two spells from any list. It's a feature which tells a Bard *which* spells he can learn at certain levels. Magical Secrets has no bearing on how many spells a Bard knows.

    Just use the Sorc chart if you want to limit spells known.
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-20 at 03:04 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    So you're subtracting the 2 spells learned from the Bard's chart each time Magical Secrets is gained?
    Then it's no longer using the Bard chart. Because the Bard chart learns 22 spells.
    Magical Secrets is a feature that allows a Bard to choose any two spells from any list. Magical Secrets has no bearing on how many spells a Bard knows.

    Just use the Sorc chart if you want to limit spells known.
    From Magical Secrets: "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table."

    I think it's the quick and dirty nature of the writeup that's rubbing you the wrong way. If I went through the hassle of formatting a table to show the progression from 4-16, you probably would have understood it from the onset.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    From Magical Secrets: "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table."
    Right, which means:

    Magical Secrets has no bearing on how many spells a Bard knows.
    Because that feature makes no changes to what is shown on the table.
    What that feature does is allow you to choose one (or both, or neither) of those two spells from a different list.
    That's all that the feature does.
    So once again, if you want to make spells known limited, and considering you're basing this entire thing on a Sorc chassis, then you should just use the Sorc table for spells known.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Quick and dirty Favored Soul conversion

    I'm not going to argue numerical semantics beyond this post, so can we please move on to other areas that may need adjusting? The last thing I will say about the total spells known is this: which progression makes more sense for a spell list of only 7 cantrips? 5C/16S or 6C/15S?

    As for the SP buffs, I have a couple tweaks in mind. Favored Weapon is perfectly aligned with a twinned magic weapon casting, so it merits no change. Divine Resistance will be limited to one type at a time, but duration will remain the same. Divine Resilience will drop to one minute bursts.

    If you're concerned about SP resource management, I've currently got a blank space for abilities gained at 10th level. If you have an idea for a worthwhile option, feel free to suggest it.

    Edit: Added Improved Favored Weapon as alternative SP use.

    Edit 2: Changed Improved Favored Weapon. Replaced Extra Attack with Divine Flurry.

    Hopefully, that should put an end to the complaint of lacking SP options.

    Edit 3: Renamed old Favored Weapon to Divine Weapon. Separated weapon proficiency from Divinely Chosen to be the new Favored Weapon.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2015-02-21 at 01:05 AM.

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