rpgs with depth [called shots, something to do besides "i attack" every turn, etc]

[LucianoAr]

Ive been playing a lot of dnd5 lately... and thou i love the flavor, i hate the "i attack" combat. i dont mean for tactical combat or something overly complicated, id just like to be able to do different stuff and outsmart my opponents (rather than math them to death)

any rpgs you guys would take a look into?

[Benthesquid]

Fate has a fairly basic system for modelling conflicts of all sorts- it's equally applicable to hacking your opponent up with a sword, beating them in a game of chess, or embarrassing them in an exchange of barbed comments at high tea. At least, that's the theory- I haven't had an opportunity to play, myself.

[BootStrapTommy]

I will shamelessly plug GURPS. While the system is mechanically simple (all d6s), its system of Advantage and Disadvantages and its plethora of Skills combined with its loose application of rules result in a myriad of option for tackling obstacles.

Plus its mechanically enforced roleplaying means that everyone plays a unique and challenging character.

And tge U stands for Universal. Any setting you want, you can play.

[Telok]

Call of Cthulhu: Run, gibber, faint, scream, throw lit dynamite, spray and pray with a tommy gun, run faster, die.

Paranioa: Die in an amusing, ironic, or embarassing manner. Take pictures of teammates dying. Engineer teammates deaths (bonus points for nuclear weapons, explosions, and toilet humor or bad puns).

Um, actually anything that isn't just basic hack'n slash is better than default D&D melee combat.

[Gavran]

Or, for something that shares many of the themes you said you enjoy, give 4E a shot. All characters have "Powers" that if nothing else add more variety than "I attack."

[mikeejimbo]

I will shamelessly plug GURPS. While the system is mechanically simple (all d6s), its system of Advantage and Disadvantages and its plethora of Skills combined with its loose application of rules result in a myriad of option for tackling obstacles.

Plus its mechanically enforced roleplaying means that everyone plays a unique and challenging character.

And tge U stands for Universal. Any setting you want, you can play.

Not to mention, GURPS has quite a bit of tactical depth to the combat. While you can just say "I attack" each round - and granted, there are situations and characters where that is effective - there are a lot of other choices you may need to make with which combat maneuver you need to use, or even specialized technique. This is particularly expanded if you're using GURPS Martial Arts, which adds even further maneuver options and techniques.

Oh, and called shots. I like going for the neck. :)

[kyoryu]

Fate has a fairly basic system for modelling conflicts of all sorts- it's equally applicable to hacking your opponent up with a sword, beating them in a game of chess, or embarrassing them in an exchange of barbed comments at high tea. At least, that's the theory- I haven't had an opportunity to play, myself.

Additionally, Fate has Maneuver/Create Advantage, which is used to model whatever sorts of "non-attack" things you do.

[Vitruviansquid]

Ive been playing a lot of dnd5 lately... and thou i love the flavor, i hate the "i attack" combat. i dont mean for tactical combat or something overly complicated, id just like to be able to do different stuff and outsmart my opponents (rather than math them to death)

any rpgs you guys would take a look into?

"Deep" but not "tactical," a game where you do "different stuff" but not "math them to death."

I'm afraid it sounds like you're looking for water without wetness to me. Do you have any examples of what you might be looking for?

[Firest Kathon]

I know you asked for anything overly complicated (and everyone has a different perception of complexity), yet I recommend Das Schwarze Auge (The Dark Eye). Its combat system allows you to add many maneuvers to your attacks and defenses, making combat much more dynamic than a simple "I hit you".

[Seto]

"Deep" but not "tactical," a game where you do "different stuff" but not "math them to death."

I'm afraid it sounds like you're looking for water without wetness to me. Do you have any examples of what you might be looking for?

As I'm understanding it, OP would like something in the style of "I hit the chandelier hanging above his head to make it fall and knock him out", or "I give him a good kick to the privates so that he'll be incapacitated", or "My sweeping kick makes him lose his balance, and I seize the opportunity to cut off his hand", or "I wait till the last moment to avoid him rushing at me, and he falls into the water".

I don't know D&D5e, but in most systems, you can do this stuff even if there are no rules for it. Either you have a DM that's good at making up reasonably-balanced advantages and disadvantages on the fly, either you use the basic rule of "I hit" and you fluff it a little differently.

[Eldan]

As I'm understanding it, OP would like something in the style of "I hit the chandelier hanging above his head to make it fall and knock him out", or "I give him a good kick to the privates so that he'll be incapacitated", or "My sweeping kick makes him lose his balance, and I seize the opportunity to cut off his hand", or "I wait till the last moment to avoid him rushing at me, and he falls into the water".

If he wants that, that's FATE. As mentioned above, FATE has a very standardized way of modelling any advantage or disadvantage and how to create them.

[TheCountAlucard]

Once the new edition of Exalted comes out, I'd suggest giving that a look. Fights have a lot more cinematic back-and-forth to them, and the stunts system allows for creativity in combat to be generously rewarded.

[Beta Centauri]

Or, for something that shares many of the themes you said you enjoy, give 4E a shot. All characters have "Powers" that if nothing else add more variety than "I attack."

Right, that was one of the main goals of 4e. In the past (and apparently in the future), if a melee character wanted to do something particularly cool in combat they certainly could - they just had to ask the GM's permission first, and not all GMs were open to such things. In 4e, you can still do that, but if the GM isn't inclined to allow improvised stuff, you still have a stock of really fun, thematic stuff your character can do, picked by you.

Called shots, not so much. You still need to ask your GM for that. But you can reliably get effects like damaging an adjacent target, pushing the target, gaining extra mobility, gaining extra HP, etc.

[illyahr]

GURPS is extremely versatile and can be set up however you decide. I once made someone from the Naruto Hyuuga clan in GURPS. Special attack involved multiple strikes that damaged fatigue instead of health.

[endur]

I don't know D&D5e, but in most systems, you can do this stuff even if there are no rules for it. Either you have a DM that's good at making up reasonably-balanced advantages and disadvantages on the fly, either you use the basic rule of "I hit" and you fluff it a little differently.

Exactly. We don't need 17 rules for something that can be resolved with 1 rule.

[Mr Beer]

GURPS is perfect for this.

[veti]

Champions, and its fantasy sibling Fantasy Hero, are good for this. First you build your character to have a range of attack options; then the rules themselves give you another range of options that are always available in melee.

Also, the 'initiative' system-equivalent makes for more tactical and thoughtful planning of the combat round.

[elliott20]

OP would need to define better what he means by "depth" exactly.

Not to be pedantic, but there are a LOT of systems out there that can cater to just about any type of game you'd want to play.

Fate, as mentioned already, is a pretty good system for more cinematic style of games. It's also got enough crunch to it that it'll satisfy the more crunch-happy side if you need it. But ultimately, Fate is a game where writing good aspects is 99% of the challenge. That's where a lot of new Fate players stumble. The way the game works is that all of your stuff is powered by fate points, and you can only earn fate points when your aspects get you into trouble. So good aspects aspects that basically can be used to both give you an advantage narrative-wise AND get you into a bunch of trouble in the process. And fate also has the issue that sometimes, there is no real mechanical difference between taking an advantage or doing a re-roll. (Mathematically though, the only time it's worth a re-roll is when you have 3 or more minuses on your die roll) It's also the type of game that frankly doesn't support long term growth very well.

If you're looking for tactical depth though, I think Riddle of Steel is by far one of the best combat simulating games out there.

If you're looking for narrative depth, I recommend any type of system built off of Apocalypse world engine i.e. Monsterhearts. This is actually my group's go to game when we don't know what to play because it's so easy to set up and go.

If you're looking for system depth and juicy setting baked into the mechanics, Burning Wheel and it's sci-fi variant Burning Empires is amazing. (But be warned, the system like 3.5E has a high system mastery bar to succeed)

One of my personal favorites is Tenra Bansho Zero, which is a mech-martial arts-type game that is based off of a popular Japanese manga. It's one of my favorites because it's basically every indie game mechanic that you'd want baked into a single game that is still crunch heavy enough that you can have a LOT of fun creating fun builds. You know what, just go read the site yourself. It's pretty awesome.

[goto124]

How does one come up with Aspects without disrupting the game so much the Fate Points are useless? You could be Blind, which gives a lot of problems, but it's hard on the DM and you and everyone else.

[kyoryu]

How does one come up with Aspects without disrupting the game so much the Fate Points are useless? You could be Blind, which gives a lot of problems, but it's hard on the DM and you and everyone else.

An aspect is just a note of a fact in the game. So I'm not entirely sure what you mean? Can you give me specifics on where you see the problems being?

I find the give-and-take with aspects to be a far more interesting part of the game than throwing Fate Points around, but that's me.

[goto124]

If I got this right, an Aspect is an obstacle that lets you gain Fate Points whenever you RP your difficulty with the Aspect.

Extreme example here, to show my point.

You made your character Blind. She can't see anything. It'll cause a lot of problems. You can RP this difficulty pretty much all the time. She walks very slowly, since she has to feel her way around, can't aim well, etc.

But it makes the game difficult for the DM. When he tells the other players 'you see a large room with a red button', he suddenly remembers there's a blind person in there. He'll have to redesign the entire campaign around the blind, modifying descriptions to not rely on sight. The other players also have to accomodate a person who uses senses other than vision. Frustrating both in and out of game.

[golentan]

Once the new edition of Exalted comes out, I'd suggest giving that a look. Fights have a lot more cinematic back-and-forth to them, and the stunts system allows for creativity in combat to be generously rewarded.

Seconding this. Combat is extremely cinematic in 3e.

[Blackhawk748]

In line with the Exalted suggestion, i recommend nWoD in general. Pretty general with enough rules that the ST can figure out how do do what your asking.

[kyoryu]

If I got this right, an Aspect is an obstacle that lets you gain Fate Points whenever you RP your difficulty with the Aspect.

Extreme example here, to show my point.

You made your character Blind. She can't see anything. It'll cause a lot of problems. You can RP this difficulty pretty much all the time. She walks very slowly, since she has to feel her way around, can't aim well, etc.

But it makes the game difficult for the DM. When he tells the other players 'you see a large room with a red button', he suddenly remembers there's a blind person in there. He'll have to redesign the entire campaign around the blind, modifying descriptions to not rely on sight. The other players also have to accomodate a person who uses senses other than vision. Frustrating both in and out of game.

So you're talking about character aspects, not things laid on a character as part of play.

Other games allow you to be blind as well. GURPS comes to mind, and I'd be surprised if HERO didn't have it as a disadvantage as well. You deal with it the same way - if you think it's going to be disruptive, you tell the player "um, no". Otherwise, it is what it is.

A great example of an aspect in Fate might be "Jabba wants his money." If the original trilogy was an RPG, that would be compelled fairly frequently through the first two movies.

[JNAProductions]

Shame Darth and Droids doesn't run on the Fate system...

As a side note, I think it'd be interesting to have an entire blind party. Totally hearing, olfactory, and tactile based adventures. (And some tasting too.)

[goto124]

IMHO blindness would require an entirely new system. Most systems are sight-centric. What is line of sight for example?

[JNAProductions]

Line of sense. Touch, if they're close enough and you're touching them. Smell, if you've got supersmell or there's a strong wind (for direction) and they just stink to high heaven. Most commonly, hearing, which would work best in certain acoustics.

...

I'm not much for homebrewing entire systems, but if someone else decides to try, I will do all I can to help make it happen.

[Arbane]

If you want cinematic combat, I'd recommend Feng Shui - since the whole point of the game is to imitate Hong Kong action films, 'cinematic' is kind of a given. but as the book says, "if you know a lot about guns in real life, you'll have to do a lot of forgetting to enjoy this game' - it's unrealistic and gleefully so.

If I got this right, an Aspect is an obstacle that lets you gain Fate Points whenever you RP your difficulty with the Aspect.

Aspects can be good, bad, or both. My usual example is "Stubborn as a Mule" - you can spend a fate point for a bonus when rolling to avoid being convinced, scared, etc, but the GM can give you a fate point to stick to you guns when it's clearly going to make things more difficult for you. Harry Dresden has "Everything Is On FIRE!" as an aspect, because that just keeps happening to him.

Admittedly, it's hard to think of situations where 'Blind' works in your favor - so word it as "Blind, but my other senses are sharper to compensate", and now you've got one that can can work for or against you...

[JNAProductions]

Blind and "helpless"

For tricking enemies into believeing you're weaker than you are. (The other half of the Matt Murdock school of kicking butt while being blind.)

[Magic Myrmidon]

Legend from Rule of Cool is still my favorite system ever, even if it's... nearly/might as well be dead/on hiatus (depending on who you ask).

http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index....ic,1341.0.html

I have NEVER had a combat devolve to "I attack" over and over again in that system. You have a use for all your actions at all times (usually, sometimes you might not have a swift). Beyond spells and special abilities, even basic attacks give you options right from level 1 (you CAN just attack, or you could disarm or trip, which both do basic damage on top of the extra effects), and your move action can be used to move, or use several special abilities, or use several skills. All social skills like diplomacy have in-combat uses that give debuffs, and take half your move action. There's also vigor, which can give you temp hit points ever turn for half your move.

And that's ALL available at level 1. I haven't even gone over all the options, really. And it's based on DnD, so you won't have to really work hard to familiarize yourself with the rules.