See through this egh!?

[Hario]

I have a church inquisitor with a will save of +16, now my DM says because the party changeling (eberron) rogue who always appears as an elf, and supposidly has been travelling with us for a long time has too high of a disguise check that I couldn't ever notice, I'm a 6th level church inquisitor so whenever I see an illusion or disguise I can make a spot check to see through it, he has a +21 modifier, should it be every time I see the person I get a new check for it? I mean I should be able to see through it eventually, I mean seriously.

[Innis Cabal]

ya i think you should, i mean your going to roll a 20 sometime, and you just need a 15, which isnt impossible to roll normally

[melchizedek]

Try Again
Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.

As far as I can tell, you should be able to try as many times as necessary.

[Mike_G]

I would rule that if you've already been fooled by a disguise, you'd need a good justification to get another check. You belived the disguise the first time, and now that's how you think of the character. If something rosues your suspicions, then sure, but not just every time you see him.

Other than that, what's to stop you from metagamishly rolling every round? That would make disguise kinda pointless.

[Fax Celestis]

I would rule that if you've already been fooled by a disguise, you'd need a good justification to get another check. You belived the disguise the first time, and now that's how you think of the character. If something rosues your suspicions, then sure, but not just every time you see him.

Other than that, what's to stop you from metagamishly rolling every round? That would make disguise kinda pointless.

Church Inquisitor's get auto-retries on illusions, IIRC.

[Beleriphon]

Church Inquisitor's get auto-retries on illusions, IIRC.

Disguise checks aren't illusions, nor are the changeling's natural abilities.

[TheOOB]

Unless his disguise mod is over 20 of your spot mod, you can assume that via the law of averages you will eventually notice the disguise.

[Olethros]

The ruling "You will NEVER notice" is heavy handed and a little stupid. By the same token, no every time you see him you shouldnt get a new role. I would argue that you are entitled to a new role when the changling does something to arrouse susspicion (mention how good a nites sleep fealt/be asleep durring your watch if you have good knowlege of elven characteristics) and everytime the changeling sifts out of and back into his elven guise. After all, there is the chance he will forget some minor detail you catch.

[TheOOB]

I think Olethros has it right, unless he changes his disguise or does something to risk revealing their identity, there is no reason you would get additional spot checks. However, if there every is a long break in time where nothing happens, give a few rolls, when you spend a lot of time with something you tend to figure out secrets, intentional or not.

[Variable Arcana]

Your Will save is irrelevant. Rolls of 20 are irrelevant.

The relevant numbers are the changeling's Disguise skill and your inquisitor's Spot skill.

If his total disguise bonus beats your total spot bonus by 19 or more, you will literally never notice. If he beats you by only 18, you should eventually notice -- but it might take a months or even years of adventuring together. (You need to roll a 20 while he rolls a 1 -- this will happen one time in 400 checks.)

[Jack Mann]

Well, you're right, Vary, but there's a reason why his spot could be applicable.

See, if the changeling had actually cast disguise self, he would get a will save, because of the Pierce Illusion special ability of the Church Inquisitor class (presumably this would be opposed by the disguise check, but the text isn't entirely clear). However, the ability Minor Change Shape only acts like disguise self. It isn't really a spell, or even a spell-like ability. So, he'd have to roll a spot check.

Still, there's hope, Hario. If you've put no ranks into it, your spot modifier is still probably within ten ranks of his disguise, thanks to your Pierce Disguise ability and high wisdom score (I'm assuming you're a cleric). As well, spot is a class skill, so you can put more ranks into it. Next time he acts suspicious, ask for an opposed roll. Don't do it all of the time, but every now and again. Eventually, he'll roll low and you'll roll high.

[Matthew]

I think the real question here is why do you want to have your Character be able to see through his companion's disguise? I mean, you already know, out of Character. Is there some in game reason or is it just to satisfy some sense of ego? Surely, this is the kind of thing that should be integrated into an engaging storyline?

[Lemur]

As Variable Arcana said, what's important is your spot check modifier, not your will save. If you don't have a good modifier for Spot, it's possible that the rogue is always going to fool you with his disguises.

Spot is a class skill for Inquisitors though, so if you don't have many ranks in spot, you should really start pumping some in there (not to see through disguises- just because Spot is really useful).

Additionally, you should get a +4 bonus to checks to see through disguises from your Pierce Disguise class ability. Also, per the Disguise rules, the rogue should count as "friends or associates" since he's a fellow party member, which gives you an additional +6 bonus to see through his disguise. Remember, there's more to disguises than just appearance: even if he only appears in one form around you, you can still pick out mannerisms that are unique to him, which is largely what the familiarity bonus is about.

That alone gives you a +10 to see through any of his disguises, plus whatever your wisdom modifier is (should be good, being a divine caster). That alone hardly sounds impossible. Unless you have ranks in Spot, you're not going to be doing it reliably, but you could do it (if he takes 10, his check DC is 31).

If he's able to take 20 (I'm not sure on this point, I get confused on whether or not you can do this) then his DC is 41, which might be unattainable, unless you have Spot maxed, or close to being maxed.

[Jack Mann]

Er, why his Will could be applicable, rather, not spot. Obviously spot is applicable.

[Wehrkind]

You should get a +6 familierity for any of his disguises OTHER THAN the one you always see. The inquisitor is only familier with the elf persona, and so gets no bonus since he is completely unfamilier with the changeling aspect.
Honestly, if he ever caught the changeling out in its "normal" shape, he probably should get a -6 penalty to recognizing it for what it is, since his brain is saying "Oh, it's just Dave in a disguise. Nice try, Dave. I recognize you."

[Matthew]

Unless some unusual circumstance presented itself, I would assume the Inquisitor was 'taking 10' on his day to day rolls.

[Olethros]

I am currious, is the "desire" to see through the disguise a matter of annoance at heavy handed DM'ing, or is the changling hurting party dynamic.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Consult with your DM, and treat it as if you took 20 in your Spot check. Treat the disguise roll as if took 10 (total Spot DC of 31), and if rolling 20 will not be over that DC, then you will never notice.

However, being a Changeling is not something that a Church Inquisitor will persecute, but if he is evil, it might. Nevertheless, in an Eberron campaign, being evil does not equal deserving to be smiten (a cardinal of the Silver Flame is LE, if I remember correctly).

Also, since a Changeling's shapechanging ability is not illusory, you may notice some oddity in the elf's appearance, but you will not see the true form of the rogue unless you cast True Seeing.

Well, that's how I'd handle it.



Edit: Also, if you stay with a disguised character for a long time, you automatically roll Spot check every hour, as SRD states:

Spoiler

Show

SRD, disguise entry
Usually, an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you've made an Inquisitor, a character specifically about discovering threats from within, I'd say the DM is being stingy if he doesn't let you actually use your abilities. If he didn't want you to find out about your ally he shouldn't have let you play that class.

[Hario]

Ok here is the problem, the changeling is played by a guy, the changeling is a female, and being CN (cough probably CE) he tries to swindle everyone (almost party members too) out of money by pickpocketing, and almost being a litteral Hoe (mmm farming equiptment), This has been horribly derailling the campaign because everytime we stop he flirts with nobles, changes shape so the party doesn't know its him and does some pretty evil acts (though he hasn't gotten an alignment change) I fear that if he goes evil (he's the only neutral aligned party member, everyone is good) that he will begin to either steal from us or try to kill a few of us, I didn't take the PrC to mess with the changeling, but if it stops me from being backstabbed its better, and I can prepare true seeing from my inquisition domain but I have little good reason to. I have detect evil at will so if needed I will find out if he becomes evil, though the DM said just for being evil I shouldn't smite them, which makes me wonder what do Paladins of the silver flame do? seriously, they would need to break their oath by being in league with evil people.

[SpiderBrigade]

Ohh, man, it sounds like the guy is a spotlight junkie, what with all of this extra behind-the-scenes running around and pickpocketing. But the first step would be talk to him about it.

I mean, in this situation you need to think about the metagame at least a little, since its a fellow party member you're dealing with. You don't want the game to break up because of PVP right? It's kind of bad on you if you spend all your energy trying to break his careful disguise, which is part of his character concept. But at the same time, it's very bad on him for stealing from the party etc. So again, talk with him about it, and with the DM as well, about these issues.

Finally, Eberron is pretty clasically more alignment-relaxed. There's a great example of how paladins (of the Silver Flame, even) deal with not-outrageously-evil people. It's not by smiting them. But still, you'd have a hard time partying with the girl if she becomes evil. As the DM how likely he is to force an alignment change, and work from there.

[Hario]

Ohh, man, it sounds like the guy is a spotlight junkie, what with all of this extra behind-the-scenes running around and pickpocketing. But the first step would be talk to him about it.

I mean, in this situation you need to think about the metagame at least a little, since its a fellow party member you're dealing with. You don't want the game to break up because of PVP right? It's kind of bad on you if you spend all your energy trying to break his careful disguise, which is part of his character concept. But at the same time, it's very bad on him for stealing from the party etc. So again, talk with him about it, and with the DM as well, about these issues.

Finally, Eberron is pretty clasically more alignment-relaxed. There's a great example of how paladins (of the Silver Flame, even) deal with not-outrageously-evil people. It's not by smiting them. But still, you'd have a hard time partying with the girl if she becomes evil. As the DM how likely he is to force an alignment change, and work from there.

The DM is very lienent and probably wouldn't ask for an alignment change under any circumstance unless the player asked, though he has claimed in full truth "I don't care what he says that if he's CN, he's definatly evil" So he can be evil in mind just not on paper, which is kinda bad in its own right, the character has never done anything ever even to be concidererd good, and just enjoys being evil. If I was a DM, I'd sit him down and ask him if he truely think he's just being evil, and if he says no, and then explain to him that being evil doesn't mean you are on team evil with demons backing yourself, it can be selfish and coniving like what he is doing, he planned to make a character to go against the party already, and is pushing the alignment card, if he does one more bad thing I'd bring him down to an alignment shift and let the party deal with him because most of them would indeed smite him if they found out anything of what he's been doing.