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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnomes2169's Avatar

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    Default Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    The sorcerer is... well, I actually like it. I like it rather a lot. The class's ability to duel, infiltrate and disable are almost untouchable by any other casting class in the game. However, I don't think it's any secret that the sorcerer is relatively limited once it has chosen which role it wants to fulfill, and this makes the sorc's playstyle a bit one-dimensional. Sure, it's a dimension that you choose... but the class is still limited by its exceedingly sparse spells known. Metamagic might be good, but it is not quite good enough to make up for this massive lack of options, and that lack (to put it like other posters in the 5e subforum) makes the class feel like the "little brother" of other full caster classes. On top of that, the wild mage isn't really all that useful of a subclass and the lack of armor proficiency keeps the subclass (and any future non-draconic sorc subclasses) rather squishy. So here are the small edits I would propose to try and patch these minor holes in the otherwise wonderful sorcerer.

    Subclasses
    Draconic sorcerer
    -The draconic sorcerer learns a new spell at levels shown on the table below. Once the spell is chosen it may not be exchanged at later levels for new spells.
    Sorcerer level Spell choices
    1st Shield or one damage dealing 1st level spell of your chosen energy type
    3rd Alter self or one damage dealing 2nd level spell of your chosen energy type
    5th Fear or one damage dealing 3rd level spell of your chosen energy type
    7th Arcane eye or one damage dealing 4th level spell of your chosen energy type
    9th Scrying

    Wild mage
    -The wild mage learns a new spell at levels shown on the table below. Once the spell is chosen it may not be exchanged at later levels for new spells.
    Sorcerer level Spell choices
    1st Bane or Bless
    3rd Crown of madness or Blur
    5th Bestow curse or Hypnotic pattern
    7th Confusion or Freedom of movement
    9th Animate objects
    -Tides of Chaos refreshes at the end of a short or long rest.
    -The die rolled when you use Bend Luck increases to 1d6 at level 10, 1d8 at level 14 and 1d10 at level 18.
    -Controlled Chaos now additionally procs a wild surge on a roll of 1 or 2.
    -When you use Spell Bombardment, you may roll one additional die for each die that shows a maximum or minimum die value, and add the number rolled to the spell's damage. This effect only works once per spell, and may only be used once per turn.

    -New ability added at level 6: Elemental chaos
    --When you cast a spell that deals damage other than bludgeoning, slashing or piercing, you may choose to activate this ability. Upon using this ability, you tap into the wild magics maintaining the planes and use those to shape the spell, randomizing the damage type the spell deals (as determined on the table below) and add your charisma modifier to the damage dealt.
    d20 roll Element
    1-2 Acid
    3-4 Cold
    5-6 Fire
    7-8 Force
    9-10 Lightning
    11-12 Necrotic
    13-14 Poison
    15-16 Radiant
    17-18 Thunder
    19-20 Roll twice, apply the best

    And... that's it. Comments, questions, concerns?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    So I hadn't really thought of the Sorcerer as you describe but it does make sense. I like the Sorcerer but I would try a light touch first. I won't say the following are better options but they might be alternative ways of broadening the Sorcerer's horizons a little without breaking their theme of Specialist.

    1) Add a feat to give +1 to Int, Ch or Wis and gives access to one more spell known, chosen from the spell list each day. Marginally useful for clerics and Druids as well.

    2) Allow two sorcery points (and the appropriate spell slot) to be spent to cast a Sorcerer spell that is not on the list of spells known.

    I think the Sorcerer is a very powerful damage dealing class as it is (and as you point out it can do other things nearly as well) and I worry about simply making it better. You need to make sure that it will not outshine other party members who chose to specialise in those roles.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    In principle I really like this but I don't think the armor is all that thematic and I would probably have a couple different spells for the Wild Magic.

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    So I hadn't really thought of the Sorcerer as you describe but it does make sense. I like the Sorcerer but I would try a light touch first. I won't say the following are better options but they might be alternative ways of broadening the Sorcerer's horizons a little without breaking their theme of Specialist.

    1) Add a feat to give +1 to Int, Ch or Wis and gives access to one more spell known, chosen from the spell list each day. Marginally useful for clerics and Druids as well.

    2) Allow two sorcery points (and the appropriate spell slot) to be spent to cast a Sorcerer spell that is not on the list of spells known.

    I think the Sorcerer is a very powerful damage dealing class as it is (and as you point out it can do other things nearly as well) and I worry about simply making it better. You need to make sure that it will not outshine other party members who chose to specialise in those roles.
    The largest change is that the sorcerer is getting 5 more (thematic to their subclass) spells that are not necessarily on their class list. While this does give the sorc a few more options (exactly 5), it still keeps them below the spells prepared by the druid or wizard, and especially not close to the number of spells prepared by the cleric or land druid (who get access to 35 spells/ day), and falls short of the Bard as well, who can default steal 6 of whatever spell he wants from other lists. As well, those other classes (besides the bard) can change which spells they have memorized every day on top of having more prepared even with these edits.

    For these reasons, I would say that the sorc is still a specialist with these edits, but a bit less restricted to being only a specialist. If you'll note, I said that the sorc could be good at one thing, and then basically has to ignore everything else (a complaint leveled at the fighter and barbarian as well). I don't feel like allowing the sorc to dabble lightly in other aspects will really outshine a specialist.

    As for the suggestions: The feat is sort of out of place, given there is one that grants spells already, and the spell it grants isn't interchangeable. As well, that would benefit all casting classes, while I'm just trying to help out the sorcerer with these (minor) edits. Meanwhile, the option to burn sorc points and a spell slot to cast any spell you do not know is far, far more game-breaking than just getting 5 more very specific spells permanently known. Even limiting it to just the sorcerer list would be massive, and allow the sorc to do basically any job they want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    In principle I really like this but I don't think the armor is all that thematic and I would probably have a couple different spells for the Wild Magic.
    The armor prof is really just there to make the sorc more distinct from the wizard in one respect, but it should probably be cut. As for the wild sorc spells, I tried to look for the ones that seemed to fit the theme of controlling luck/ causing confusion to fit the luck-based and confusing nature of the wild mage. Awaken I can see needing replacement, but what others do you think are out of place/ what would you suggest I use instead?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    I think trying to "help out" the sorcerer alone is not really needed. It isn't like the Sorcerer is an underpowered class. As you suggested yourself the Sorcerer can do almost anything, he just can't do everything.

    If class power was determined by spells known alone then yes, the Sorcerer would look pretty meek for a caster. If sorcerer power also benefits from metamagic, adding Cha bonus to damage and so on then it actually looks pretty damn awesome as a class.

    Adding 5 more spells isn't "a few more options" to me (or it could be if they were limited in scope). Just looking at the Draconic Sorceror:

    They get arcane eye making them a better scout than Rogue or Ranger.
    They get Alter Self to be better able to bluff their way into places than Bards and Equal to Warlocks (who also have to make sacrifices to take the spell)
    They get fear to give them crowd control and battlefield manipulation equal to an enchanter at that level

    There doesn't seem to be anything that the Sorcerer is giving up to get these awesome abilities.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    They get arcane eye making them a better scout than Rogue or Ranger.
    They get Alter Self to be better able to bluff their way into places than Bards and Equal to Warlocks (who also have to make sacrifices to take the spell)
    They get fear to give them crowd control and battlefield manipulation equal to an enchanter at that level

    There doesn't seem to be anything that the Sorcerer is giving up to get these awesome abilities.
    1. The only real advantage of Arcane Eye is not having to move and its size otherwise it actually it has worse senses than many of the races you can choose. You still need to actually make the check against anything concealed..etc.
    2. Alter Self is a quick disguise and says nothing on whether or not you can actually act the part. Sure may be you can slip in as a nobody or a somebody but that all depends on how trained or knowledge of the people you encounter.
    3. Save DC's in this edition are crap so it isn't all that reliable especially considering its the Frightened condition.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomes2169 View Post
    The armor prof is really just there to make the sorc more distinct from the wizard in one respect, but it should probably be cut. As for the wild sorc spells, I tried to look for the ones that seemed to fit the theme of controlling luck/ causing confusion to fit the luck-based and confusing nature of the wild mage. Awaken I can see needing replacement, but what others do you think are out of place/ what would you suggest I use instead?
    Except wild magic in theme in other stories often is random things being destroyed, thrown across the room, or other such event. Awaken I would definitely replace with Animate Objects or Telekinesis.

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    Default Re: Some tweaks for the sorcerer (Feedback appreciated)

    ... That awkward moment where you agree with a comment, but thing you hit submit and dream about editing the post without actually doing either. Level 5 spell selection for wild mage is now only animate objects.

    So with the new release of the storm and favored soul bloodlines, I thought I would revisit these ones and try to spruce things up. I still think that having only one bonus spell at each spell level is better for the sorcerer, so I've kept it at that, but only given one choice once level 5 spells are available (following the example of the storm sorc). As well, I've decided that the wild mage just needs something more, not just an improvement on their (admittedly still requiring a buff) subclass abilities, so I've given them the bonus ability "Elemental chaos" to add a bit more RNG and use into their blasting spells. As well, not enough rolling on the wild magic tables happen! So making a wild surge happen on a roll of 1 or 2 is now a thing once the sorc gets Controlled Chaos

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