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    Default How to get the most use out of double shields?

    In the Plot and Poison: A guidebook to Drow book, there is a feat called Double Shielding, which allows you to employ 2 shields with an armor check penalty of -1 or better (so -1 or 0). And gain the armor bonuses and enchantment bonuses from both shields, while suffering the combined armor check penalty of both shields.

    I need ways to reduce the armor check penalty for shields. Any and all published D&D 3.5 books are allowed. Pathfinder is on a case by case basis. (I'll list off what I've been able to think of off the top of my head. It's 1:45 am at the moment, so I don't care to rummage through the books right now, maybe when I awake.)

    Masterwork from core reduces the penalty by 1.

    Shield Mastery is in the Plot and Poison, which reduces the penalty of a type of shield (buckler, small, large, or tower) by 1. Not great, especially not for a feat.

    In the Chainmail Bikini book, there's an armor customization: Custom Fit, purchasable up to 3 times, reducing armor penalty by 1 each time. Probably not intended for shields, but I'll take what I can get to dual wield tower shields.

    Mithral (Bloody hell if I know the book it's from) reduces check penalties by 3.

    So, between these above 4 items that I know about, that can reduce the armor penalty of a tower shield down to a -2.

    Hellforged Armor property (suggested by Darrin) reduces this penalty by an other 1. It's from the DMG 2. And now, we can dual wield tower shields.

    Dragoncraft (from draconomicon) reduces check penalty by 1, in addition to the masterwork, but it's a material, thus can't be stacked with mithral

    Inside Dragon Lance ""War of the Lance" there is an NPC base class called the master. It's like Expert on Steroids or a pitiful nonmagic artificer. A level 13 Master who focused on Craft can make for you tower-shields of Legend. The of Legend property is a non-magical enhancement with is like applying the masterwork quality five times (doesn't stack with masterwork). So for an extra 750 gp a pop, the base ACP of your tower-shields is -5, before any magic or special quality from the material, or anything. - great replacement for mithral and custom fits if you're already starting at level 10+, when lvl 13 NPCs start becoming a thing, and you haven't already invested in a set of shields.
    -------------------------
    In player's handbook 2, I think, there's a feat called Shield Specialization, which grants +1 AC to shields, but specifically only works with small, buckler, or large shields. -pointless for our purposes. But, I guess, if you wanted to use large shields with this, then you'd not need quite so much investment. I did a cost/benefit assessment at the bottom.

    But aside from that, I can't think of anything. Anyone got some ideas?

    JeenLeen suggested use of the feat: Divine Shield to sacrifice a use of turn undead to gain + Charisma mod to our shield's bonus to AC for a number of turns = to 1/2 our character level. If lucky, because of the wording, it could be construed to be possible to apply our Cha Mod 2 times on both our shields, ignoring dexterity in favor of Cha for armor class bonus, AND super heavy armor. Since having ultra armor imposes no spell cast penalty on clerics, this is a viable option. EDIT: Actually, no, it would seem as though it's not possible to gain it 2 times because it's sacred bonus (noted by JeenLeen)

    In terms of practicality, one could make an argument for animated shield working with a regular shield if you have double shielding, and allow you to use normal attacks with normal weapons.

    You can go full Cabrakan, and take Shield Specialization from Plot and Poison, which explicitly lets you shield bash with your specialized shield type, and keep the shield bonus as a free action - as well as explicitly allowing the dual-wielding shields to be recovered from bashing as a free action as well. (So basically it's an Improved Shield Bash that only works on a specific set of shields, but allows shield bash where it normally isn't.) But would the damage dice basically just be one larger than standard large shields or what? Since there's no reason that tower shields couldn't have spikes, but simply could never bash, most GMs would probably allow you to have shield spikes with this feat, which would allow you to get those shield spikes enchanted with Defending, giving an additional +10 untyped bonus to Defense, potentially, if put on both of their spikes by using the Greater Magic Weapon spell. (That bit might not work, as JeenLeen mentioned, it might not truly be 2 different sources of bonuses, even on 2 different shields. ask your GM.)

    Of course, I could just go full tank mode, and take a turtle suit, allowing me to take up a 10ft space, take the Parrying Shield Feat to say "screw you" to magic touch attacks and the Goad feat from complete ...Adventurer or Scoundrel, forcing them to attack me by either flat out being in the way, or a skill check.
    ...Or both? Why not?


    --------
    Let's make a cost/benefit analysis of using 2 large shields, taking Shield Specialization (from PH2) and 2 tower shields, taking Shield Mastery (Plot and Poison). Anything that is shared between both methods will be ignored, as it will make no difference either way (like shield spikes, enchantments, etc). All costs, bonuses, etc are multiplied by 2, as we are comparing them as though both shields in the set had it, unless specified otherwise.
    -
    Large Shield (wooden) for 14 gp
    AC bonus: +6
    Masterwork: 300 (else you can't dual shield)
    Potential replacement materials: standard (cheap option, makes this available faster), dragoncraft (minor resistances, but non-magical), adamantine, everything else is pointless in every instance
    Standard: 0 gp
    or Dragoncraft: reduces ACP by an additional 1, down to 0, and 5 resistance of an element, for an unmarked amount, but it's reasonable to assume it's the price for light armor, 6000 gp (since it says "armor and shield" in the property's title and description) - really meh
    or Adamantine: 4000 gp + 26 gp over base, for using metal rather than wooden large shield base, -300 for auto masterwork - It's not armor so it gives no damage reduction. It's not the weapon part of this, if you add spikes, so don't get weapon bonuses. This just seems really pointless unless your GM has a hard on for sunder.

    Total cost: probably just 314 gp. The other options aren't great.
    -
    Tower Shield for 60 gp
    AC bonus: +8
    Mithral: 2000 GP
    Hellforged Property: 2000 gp
    Custom Fit (x3): 900 gp

    Total cost: 4960 gp.
    -------
    Difference: 4646
    AC difference: 2

    Is it worth it? Let's use other items as a comparative. Bracer of Armor +2 costs 4,000 gp. That's pretty close. The difference between +2 and +4 costs 12,000 gp, and the gap increases from there. It seems to be worth it. Amulet of Natural Armor +2 costs 8000 gp. already worth it. Ioun Stone costs 5,000 for +1. Still worth. Ring of Protection costs 8000 for +2.

    OK, yes, it's worthwhile, and you get optional full cover. And it's just too cool to pass up.
    It would only cost 4960 gp to get both of them, without shield spikes. 5060 with them, assuming no self-crafting. That's plenty doable by level 4. You could just use a single tower shield to tide you over until then.
    With crafting (and being allowed to craft it, because hell if the DM just let you randomly run across stacks of mithral so early), it would only cost 1686.66 gp, which is doable by level 3, and have a near majority of your expected gold left over.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-03-29 at 07:17 AM.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    You ARE aware that's not a WotC book, yes?

    Either way, a description of an Extreme Shield is here. That has some other stuff you might find interesting.

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemeral_Being View Post
    You ARE aware that's not a WotC book, yes?

    Either way, a description of an Extreme Shield is here. That has some other stuff you might find interesting.
    Unfortunately, the description didn't have the details, but hey, at least I now know that I can give up my tower shields for something I might use....maybe.

    Otherwise, that link's pretty cool. Still didn't find an additional point penalty reduction. :(
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-03-26 at 02:17 AM.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    This isn't how this game works. You play a character. You don't play the equivalent of an object. You can buy something that does what you're trying to do. It isn't even that expensive.

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    This isn't how this game works. You play a character. You don't play the equivalent of an object. You can buy something that does what you're trying to do. It isn't even that expensive.
    You think? Should everyone who wants help with such and such feature post 2 pages of stuff that's completely irrelevant to the question? Didn't think so.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    The Hellforged template in DMGII improves the ACP by one, but the Max Dex Bonus is reduced by 1. (Most shields don't have a Max Dex Bonus.)

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    The Hellforged template in DMGII improves the ACP by one, but the Max Dex Bonus is reduced by 1. (Most shields don't have a Max Dex Bonus.)
    That's useful, lol.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    In terms of practicality, one could make an argument for dancing shield working with a regular shield if you have double shielding, and allow you to use normal attacks. Tower shields can't bash, though I think extreme shields might.
    Of course, I could just go full tank mode, and take a turtle suit, allowing me to take up a 10ft space, and the Goad feat from complete ...Adventurer or Scoundrel, forcing them to attack me by either flat out being in the way, or a skill check.
    I think that if you use Dancing (as in the weapon enchantment), the shield probably wouldn't function as a shield in the meantime since it's a dancing weapon then. However, there is Animated that makes it float around you and thus not take up a hand. The Animated enchantment doesn't say it can't be used to shield bash, but it also doesn't say it can and it only states that it protects... so I reckon you couldn't bash with it. You should ask the DM, though.
    But you could bash with your other shield, so that's not really an issue.

    I could see a cleric working really well with this. Have one shield be your in-hand weapon/shield, and your animated shield be the main defense. You can cast spells or shield bash that way. You'd have to take the Proficiency feat (or dip Fighter, but honesty that could work with this build for the bonus feat) for Tower Shields if you want them, but if you want an Exotic shield, you'd need to use up a feat for that anyway, so I reckon that's not a big problem to you.

    I think Player's Handbook II had some shield bash feats. I'm not sure if they're any good. Whichever book (Complete Divine?) had the 'spend turn attempts to do x' feats had at least one that helped with shields, I think, but I don't recall it ever being interesting enough that I really cared about it. There's at least some art in the book of a dude looking cool blocking something with a holy-infused shield.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2015-03-26 at 08:56 AM. Reason: added links

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    good stuff.
    Herpa freaking derp. I blame insomnia for that mistake.
    Complete Warrior has Divine Shield, where you spend a rebuke attempt, and gain your cha modifier as a bonus to your shield's armor class. If read by a lenient DM, this could be interpreted as affecting one of your shields, allowing you to stack it by giving up 2 uses.

    And that art is of holy resistance.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-03-26 at 09:21 AM.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    In the Chainmail Bikini book, there's an armor customization: Custom Fit, purchasable up to 3 times, reducing armor penalty by 1 each time. Probably not intended for shields, but I'll take what I can get to dual wield tower shields.
    As an SCA fighter, I can assure you that a shield hung correctly for me is much easier to wield than a borrowed or found one.

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I think that if you use Dancing (as in the weapon enchantment), the shield probably wouldn't function as a shield in the meantime since it's a dancing weapon then. However, there is Animated that makes it float around you and thus not take up a hand. The Animated enchantment doesn't say it can't be used to shield bash, but it also doesn't say it can and it only states that it protects... so I reckon you couldn't bash with it. You should ask the DM, though.
    But you could bash with your other shield, so that's not really an issue.

    I could see a cleric working really well with this. Have one shield be your in-hand weapon/shield, and your animated shield be the main defense. You can cast spells or shield bash that way. You'd have to take the Proficiency feat (or dip Fighter, but honesty that could work with this build for the bonus feat) for Tower Shields if you want them, but if you want an Exotic shield, you'd need to use up a feat for that anyway, so I reckon that's not a big problem to you.

    I think Player's Handbook II had some shield bash feats. I'm not sure if they're any good. Whichever book (Complete Divine?) had the 'spend turn attempts to do x' feats had at least one that helped with shields, I think, but I don't recall it ever being interesting enough that I really cared about it. There's at least some art in the book of a dude looking cool blocking something with a holy-infused shield.
    Now we need to find a way to tri wield shields :P

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    As an SCA fighter, I can assure you that a shield hung correctly for me is much easier to wield than a borrowed or found one.
    I can most definitely agree on that bit. Still, it probably wasn't "intended" for use in shields. I'll hope that your words of encouragement allows me to convince my GM otherwise, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsondawn View Post
    Now we need to find a way to tri wield shields :P
    Hell yeah.

    EDIT: found a way to shield bash with tower shields. Posted in OP.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-03-26 at 11:02 AM.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    JeenLeen suggested use of the feat: Divine Shield to sacrifice a use of turn undead to gain + Charisma mod to our shield's bonus to AC for a number of turns = to 1/2 our character level. If lucky, because of the wording, it could be construed to be possible to apply our Cha Mod 2 times on both our shields, ignoring dexterity in favor of Cha for armor class, bonus, AND super heavy armor. Since having ultra armor imposes no spell cast penalty on clerics, this is a viable option.

    In terms of practicality, one could make an argument for animated shield working with a regular shield if you have double shielding, and allow you to use normal attacks with normal weapons.
    You can go full Cabrakan, and take Shield Specialization from Plot and Poison, which explicitly lets you shield bash with your specialized shield type, and keep the shield bonus as a free action - as well as explicitly allowing the dual-wielding shields to be recovered from bashing as a free action as well. (So basically it's an Improved Shield Bash that only works on a specific set of shields, but allows shield bash where it normally isn't.) But would the damage dice basically just be one larger than standard large shields or what? Since there's no reason that tower shields couldn't have spikes, but simply could never bash, most GMs would probably allow you to have shield spikes with this feat, which would allow you to get those shield spikes enchanted with Defending, giving an additional +10 untyped bonus to Defense, potentially, if put on both of their spikes.
    Of course, I could just go full tank mode, and take a turtle suit, allowing me to take up a 10ft space, take the Parrying Shield Feat to say "screw you" to magic touch attacks and the Goad feat from complete ...Adventurer or Scoundrel, forcing them to attack me by either flat out being in the way, or a skill check.
    ...Or both? Why not?
    With Divine Shield, you might not be able to apply it twice because of how similar bonuses do not stack. For example, if it is a sacred bonus, it might apply to both shields, but it doesn't stack (unless the feat from Plot & Poison overrides the basic rule that bonuses of the same do not stack, which it might (looks like it does for armor (shield?) and enchantment (enhancement?) bonuses from your opening post, but those are distinct from sacred bonuses to AC).

    Defending might work, because, if I recall correctly, it gives an untyped bonus, "as a bonus that stacks with all other." Untyped stacks with untyped, as long as it's from a different source. However, it's unclear if two different shields with Defending would be the same source (Defending) or different sources (two shields), or if Defending's text means a Defending weapon even stacks with a Defending weapon. (My GM ruled that Defending did not stack with Defending, but I could see someone else ruling differently.)
    Also, keep in mind that Defending is a +1 bonus, so even if it works as best for you, you'd get at most +8 from two +4 Defending Shield Spikes--assuming non-epic gear.

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    With Divine Shield, you might not be able to apply it twice because of how similar bonuses do not stack. For example, if it is a sacred bonus, it might apply to both shields, but it doesn't stack (unless the feat from Plot & Poison overrides the basic rule that bonuses of the same do not stack, which it might (looks like it does for armor (shield?) and enchantment (enhancement?) bonuses from your opening post, but those are distinct from sacred bonuses to AC).

    Defending might work, because, if I recall correctly, it gives an untyped bonus, "as a bonus that stacks with all other." Untyped stacks with untyped, as long as it's from a different source. However, it's unclear if two different shields with Defending would be the same source (Defending) or different sources (two shields), or if Defending's text means a Defending weapon even stacks with a Defending weapon. (My GM ruled that Defending did not stack with Defending, but I could see someone else ruling differently.)
    Also, keep in mind that Defending is a +1 bonus, so even if it works as best for you, you'd get at most +8 from two +4 Defending Shield Spikes--assuming non-epic gear.
    I just keep derping :( Thanks for having my back dude.
    Yes, I do believe that you couldn't apply divine shield, because it is a specific sacred bonus. And "enchantment" is an actual type of bonus, which is specifically stacked by this feat, while sacred is not.
    I however, never heard about the difference sources thing, but since it specifically says it stacks with all other bonuses, wouldn't it be able to?
    Also, I prob shoulda clarified that you could use Greater Magic Weapon to artificially give it a +5 enchantment, at it's highest potential, even if it's a +1 /whatever magic enchantment/ shield spike.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsondawn View Post
    Now we need to find a way to tri wield shields :P
    Weld three tower shields together into a single big tower shield, use it as a mobile wall to block corridors while the party wizard shoots poison gas through the purpose-made hole.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Weld three tower shields together into a single big tower shield, use it as a mobile wall to block corridors while the party wizard shoots poison gas through the purpose-made hole.
    Duct tape - the answer to all problems.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Clearly, this build needs more Thri-Kreen.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    The Empyreal ability is good for that.

    Can you make a Mouth Pick spiked shield?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    The Empyreal ability is good for that.

    Can you make a Mouth Pick spiked shield?
    If you are referencing http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...empyreal-armor then no, that actually seems kinda meh, as well as it's fluff being of legendary status - not something you can just buy.

    Couldn't find any references to Mouth Pick online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Chuckles View Post
    Clearly, this build needs more Thri-Kreen.
    YES! Oh...Even with multiple arms, can't get the benefit of that many shields until I find another feat...or perhaps publish my own book.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-03-26 at 10:50 PM.
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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    If you are referencing http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...empyreal-armor then no, that actually seems kinda meh, as well as it's fluff being of legendary status - not something you can just buy.
    Here's everything you need to know about pathfinder.
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    Book of Exalted Deeds. It concerts the bonus to sacred bonus to saves.
    Couldn't find any references to Mouth Pick online.
    Lords of Madness. Lets you hold a weapon with a bite attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
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    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: How to get the most use out of double shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Book of Exalted Deeds. It concerts the bonus to sacred bonus to saves.
    Lords of Madness. Lets you hold a weapon with a bite attack.
    Couldn't find what you were talking about in the BoED.
    The bite pick thing though, has some potential.
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