Clerics & Turning Why?

[Wilsoros]

Hello All,

it's been many years since I've played D&D, been thinking about DM'ing again, and I was curious why Clerics can turn undead? I figure in 2nd Ed it was a good vs evil thing, but "if" it's still around, what is the reason? Or is it now tied to your deity?

Thanks for the help,
Malfarian

[Mr Beer]

Clergy traditionally are ascribed the power to ward off supernatural evil beings with the power of the holy cross. This trope was folded into D&D and then expanded upon. So that's the reason.

[Arbane]

Hello All,

it's been many years since I've played D&D, been thinking about DM'ing again, and I was curious why Clerics can turn undead? I figure in 2nd Ed it was a good vs evil thing, but "if" it's still around, what is the reason? Or is it now tied to your deity?

Thanks for the help,
Malfarian

Because Gygax, that's why.

More specifically, it's because (IIRC) someone back in the OD&D days played a vampire, so Gygax made a class based around Vampire Hunting (Universal Films' version of Dracula style), and that became the Cleric class.

[Sidmen]

In 5th edition, it is rolled into the Cleric's Channel Divinity feature, which can be used for multiple different effects. All clerics can turn undead - undeath apparently quails from the sight of the holy, but the Clerics of Life can channel their divine power to heal instead, trickster gods can let you channel illusions, and gods of battle will let you channel incredible abilities to strike at your foes.

[Xuc Xac]

Turning undead is the reason the cleric class was invented in the first place. One of the earliest PCs was a vampire in the style of Christopher Lee as Dracula. He got to be a bit unstoppable so they made an anti-undead fighter to reign him in a bit. The other stuff like healing came later

[Thrudd]

Because priests have power over possessing demons, ghosts, vampires, as exorcists. Being undead could be conceived as a body being possessed by an evil/demonic force.
Good gods, maybe even neutral ones, give their servants power to combat the forces of their enemies (evil gods) on earth. Or maybe undead represent negative energy creating unbalance on earth, and the gods want their servants to remove that.

[SimonMoon6]

Yeah, as others have mentioned, it's a remnant of the strange merging of the Judeo-Christian mythology's mindset onto the polytheistic societies found in a typical D&D world.

There is little reason why a priest of Poseidon, Thor, or Arioch should have any influence over undead creatures.

But because priests of the Judeo-Christian mythology have been reported to have had such abilities in various legends and stories, their abilities get added to the abilities of the polytheistic D&D clerics. Might as well ask why they wear plate mail (like real world Templars) and why they use maces (can't draw blood, but can smash your head to a pulp). What any of that has to do with worshipping, say, Aphrodite, I do not know.

[johnbragg]

Yeah, as others have mentioned, it's a remnant of the strange merging of the Judeo-Christian mythology's mindset onto the polytheistic societies found in a typical D&D world.

There is little reason why a priest of Poseidon, Thor, or Arioch should have any influence over undead creatures.

But because priests of the Judeo-Christian mythology have been reported to have had such abilities in various legends and stories, their abilities get added to the abilities of the polytheistic D&D clerics. Might as well ask why they wear plate mail (like real world Templars) and why they use maces (can't draw blood, but can smash your head to a pulp). What any of that has to do with worshipping, say, Aphrodite, I do not know.

I've never been a fan of the D&D priest/cleric/etc. The whole "no edged weapons" thing comes from the Bayeux Tapestry, where a bishop was using a mace--further research has pretty well shown that was a random, personal inclination and not a restriction for the clergy. And why priests of farming and love and the sea and light and wisdom and death and wine all carry maces and wear full plate--

But Turning Undead is much more reasonable. If you figure that clerics exist because communities find clerics useful, so the gods they pray to provide clerics, then clerics Turning Undead makes sense--priests who can't protect the village against a two-bit necromancer and his zombies and skeletons are pretty useless to their flocks.

[Maglubiyet]

Well, nowadays they can also Command, Rebuke, and Bolster undead too.

[cobaltstarfire]

It seems to just boil down to tradition.


That said, the 5e game I'm in, we replaced the turn undead part of channel divinity with a delightfully destructive tornado ability. Because to the DM (and to me) it doesn't make sense for my Tempest Cleric to just randomly be able to turn/rebuke undead.

[SimonMoon6]

But Turning Undead is much more reasonable. If you figure that clerics exist because communities find clerics useful, so the gods they pray to provide clerics, then clerics Turning Undead makes sense--priests who can't protect the village against a two-bit necromancer and his zombies and skeletons are pretty useless to their flocks.

I don't really get that. Replace "undead" with "Dragons". A priest who can't protect the village against dragons is useless, so clerics should be able to turn dragons?

And why should a priest of Aphrodite be protecting a village? That priest should be helping people find true love, not protecting the village. A priest of Thor should be helping with the weather, not protecting the village. A priest of Poseidon should bless people's boats and grant people safe passage through the sea, not protecting the village.

Priests of various gods have purposes, but before D&D arrived on the scene, that purpose was not physical confrontations. Heck, I can't imagine even a priest of a Judeo-Christian faith being called upon to protect a village. Can you imagine Father Mulcahy being expected to fight off the North Koreans in a episode of MASH? Should he put on his plate mail and pull out his mace and run around smashing people? No, that's not what priests are for.

[johnbragg]

I don't really get that. Replace "undead" with "Dragons". A priest who can't protect the village against dragons is useless, so clerics should be able to turn dragons?

Wouldn't hurt.

And why should a priest of Aphrodite be protecting a village? That priest should be helping people find true love, not protecting the village. A priest of Thor should be helping with the weather, not protecting the village. A priest of Poseidon should bless people's boats and grant people safe passage through the sea, not protecting the village.

I think the way I picture it, to most people, you're a priest of Townsville, and only secondarily a priest of your god. So make with the cure wounds and calm animals, Mr Servant of Kord, before we lose the mare _and_ the new foal, this ain't an easy birth.

(This also relies on gods being powered in some way by worshippers--if Kord isn't healing the sick and warding off the undead, what's he good for? A Cuthbertist or Pelorian etc can kick just as much ass.)

Priests of various gods have purposes, but before D&D arrived on the scene, that purpose was not physical confrontations. Heck, I can't imagine even a priest of a Judeo-Christian faith being called upon to protect a village. Can you imagine Father Mulcahy being expected to fight off the North Koreans in a episode of MASH? Should he put on his plate mail and pull out his mace and run around smashing people? No, that's not what priests are for.

Well, in the setting, the undead (and demons and devils and daemons oh my) are set up as the opponents of all the gods in general, so if a North Korean vampire showed up, yes, that episode would be about Fr. Mulcahy.

TLDR: It's not 100% logical, but having all clerics Turn Undead makes more sense than having all clerics be plate-clad warrior-types.

[veti]

I don't really get that. Replace "undead" with "Dragons". A priest who can't protect the village against dragons is useless, so clerics should be able to turn dragons?

It's vague, but there is a traditional connection between "undead" and "religion" that doesn't apply to most monsters.

And why should a priest of Aphrodite be protecting a village? That priest should be helping people find true love, not protecting the village. A priest of Thor should be helping with the weather, not protecting the village. A priest of Poseidon should bless people's boats and grant people safe passage through the sea, not protecting the village.

If you accept the premise that a village priest should have class levels at all, then she is probably one of very few characters in the village who does, and very likely the only spellcaster. She can't afford to be too fussy about her speciality, she'll have to weigh in to whatever needs to be done. If there's a flood coming, she'll use her magic to dig; if there's a drought, she'll pray for rain even if her patron deity has nothing to do with weather; and if zombies are shambling through the main street, she'll grab her holy symbol and stand in their way.

[SimonMoon6]

It's vague, but there is a traditional connection between "undead" and "religion" that doesn't apply to most monsters.

*Judeo-Christian* religions. Not others. And even then, the connection to being anti-demons is even stronger, so clerics should turn outsiders too (or instead).

There's not much connection between Norse religions and undead, as far as I'm aware, but I'm not an expert. Likewise, I don't think priests of the Greco-Roman gods had much to do with undead. In fact, I don't think the concept of "undead" is really on the radar of most early religions. (Vampires and zombies are relatively recent inventions. Animated skeletons are an invention of Hollywood movies. There are the occasional evil spirits in old tales, but those are more often demons than ghosts.)

So, to me, it's a painfully obvious ethnocentrism to assume that all these other polytheistic religions work exactly the same way as the Judeo-Christian religions.

[johnbragg]

*Judeo-Christian* religions. Not others. And even then, the connection to being anti-demons is even stronger, so clerics should turn outsiders too (or instead).

There's not much connection between Norse religions and undead, as far as I'm aware, but I'm not an expert. Likewise, I don't think priests of the Greco-Roman gods had much to do with undead. In fact, I don't think the concept of "undead" is really on the radar of most early religions. (Vampires and zombies are relatively recent inventions. Animated skeletons are an invention of Hollywood movies. There are the occasional evil spirits in old tales, but those are more often demons than ghosts.)

So, to me, it's a painfully obvious ethnocentrism to assume that all these other polytheistic religions work exactly the same way as the Judeo-Christian religions.

In earlier editions, (good) clerics can also turn Evil outsiders.

There's a lot of ethnocentrism in D&D. 2nd and 3rd edition, as time progressed, came out with options to swap Turn Undead for other abilities.

[Keltest]

*Judeo-Christian* religions. Not others. And even then, the connection to being anti-demons is even stronger, so clerics should turn outsiders too (or instead).

Way back when the source religions were still mildly relevant in the character concept, they could. I still houserule that good priests can turn evil outsiders like they were undead, because frankly I don't like them and want to ruin their day.

[veti]

*Judeo-Christian* religions. Not others. And even then, the connection to being anti-demons is even stronger, so clerics should turn outsiders too (or instead).

In every religion I'm aware of, "disposal of the dead" is a function closely associated with the church/priesthood in some form. In many cases it's their primary function. Therefore, the mere existence of "undead" is implicitly linked to them. At the least, it's an affront to them, because as Mustrum Ridcully points out, dead people walking about is at best "unhygienic". Otherwise, it may mean that they've failed in their job or, even worse, been corrupted by whatever.

Classical and (especially) Egyptian mythology has a whole great tradition about the Underworld and its spirits, which are intimately linked to their respective gods. Actual undead, however, beyond the occasional mostly-harmless ghost, are extraordinarily rare in those mythologies. So to that extent, the very concept of undead could be described as an ethnocentric imposition on a world where it doesn't really belong.

(And yes, "turning outsiders" was certainly a thing in AD&D.)

[Milo v3]

Classical and (especially) Egyptian mythology has a whole great tradition about the Underworld and its spirits, which are intimately linked to their respective gods. Actual undead, however, beyond the occasional mostly-harmless ghost, are extraordinarily rare in those mythologies. So to that extent, the very concept of undead could be described as an ethnocentric imposition on a world where it doesn't really belong.

I was actually going to mention Egyptian mythology of an example where undead are positive. Osiris is an undead, it's why he's skin's all green, and the mummies are created by the priests and then they go around protecting holy sites.

[Talyn]

Yeah, in an Egyptian-themed game, I'd reverse the Good/Evil dynamic for Turning Undead. Good and Neutral Clerics rebuke/command undead, since the undead are supposed to be eternal servants of the gods. Evil clerics turn/destroy undead, since they have been empowered by their god to destroy the main pantheon's eternal servants and despoil the tombs they protect.

[Thrudd]

I don't really get that. Replace "undead" with "Dragons". A priest who can't protect the village against dragons is useless, so clerics should be able to turn dragons?

And why should a priest of Aphrodite be protecting a village? That priest should be helping people find true love, not protecting the village. A priest of Thor should be helping with the weather, not protecting the village. A priest of Poseidon should bless people's boats and grant people safe passage through the sea, not protecting the village.

Priests of various gods have purposes, but before D&D arrived on the scene, that purpose was not physical confrontations. Heck, I can't imagine even a priest of a Judeo-Christian faith being called upon to protect a village. Can you imagine Father Mulcahy being expected to fight off the North Koreans in a episode of MASH? Should he put on his plate mail and pull out his mace and run around smashing people? No, that's not what priests are for.

Clerics were not conceived of originally as just a priest, however. They are more like Templars, or a special arm of the church trained in combat and charged with protecting people and exorcising evil. Original clerics didn't even get a spell until second level, they were basically fighters with weapon restrictions. It is very much medieval Christian/crusader imagery, rather than anything older.

Polytheism was also not necessarily an assumption of the original rules or the conception of the cleric class. It was the Greyhawk setting which developed a pantheon, over time, and started that tradition/assumption (forgotten realms followed suit). Priests of the Greek gods, or the Norse gods, were not the original idea for what a cleric was.

(For a good game that is an old school style but is all about Greek motifs, see Mazes and Minotaurs.)

You may not think this idea fits in your own settings anymore, but it does "make sense" according to the game's origins and the people who created it.

I think 5e has done a lot to move clerics away from that, by giving various subclasses/domains that are not all templar-like warrior exorcists, and making turn undead just one possible use of the "channel divinity" power.

[NomGarret]

At this point it's "iconic D&D," though as has been said, more recent editions have layered on additional options for channeling the power of faith for things other than just turning zombies. 4e divine classes have various utility actions as well as feats that could expand turning to elementals, outsiders, etc.

You could certainly house rule base turning to replace undead with one of the other above types (or something like aberrations, constructs, or dragons) if the average village is more likely to be threatened by one of those than zombies. It's an easier switch in 4e or 5e than 3.x given how turn resistance is built into 3.x undead, but I'm sure it can be done.