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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    Hello all! This is my first foray into archetype, it first went up on the DSP submission board, but this has since gone down with the forum changeover, so I'm posting it here for feedback and advice:

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    Clanhold Warden (Warder; Dwarf)

    The Clanhold Warden is an archetype of the Warder class, available to dwarf wardens.

    Disciplines: A Clanhold Warden loses access to the Broken Blade discipline. Acrobatics is no longer a class skill.

    Maneuvers: Clanhold Wardens are leaders and tacticians who base their planning on common sense and gut instinct, rather than complicated stratagems. Because of this, a Clanhold Warden’s initiation modifier is Wisdom, not Intelligence. As such their maneuver recovery is also keyed of Wisdom and not Intelligence.

    Maneuvers Readied: A Clanhold Warden recovers maneuvers by activating his Defensive Training class feature, rather than Defensive Focus. The Clanhold Warden may recover a single maneuver as a standard action as normal.

    Defensive Training: Dwarves realize that they are not as fast as other races, and know they cannot personally intercede to secure the safety of their allies. They make up for this by being patient and attentive (if gruff) teachers. At 1st level, when recovering maneuver as a full round action, the Warden may spend a free action in response to an ally who receives the bonuses of his aegis being attacked (This free action may be used when it is not the Clanhold Warden’s turn). The attacked ally may immediately perform a readied or expended counter known by the Clanhold Warden (but not one which the Clanhold Warden has not readied or expended). To benefit from this, the ally must have spent 10 minutes drilling with the Clanhold Warden sometime within the last 24 hours (This time may overlap with time that the Clanhold Warden or other initiators ready their maneuvers). The Clanhold Warden may use this ability a number of times equal to half his initiation modifier.

    At 10th level, the Clanhold Warden may grant any counter he knows to an ally, whether or not it has been readied, and may grant a number of counters equal to his initiation modifier. This ability replaces the Warder’s Defensive Focus and Improved Defensive Focus class features.

    Armiger’s Mark: This ability is unchanged, except that Wisdom is used instead of Intelligence to determine the duration, number of maintainable marks, marks per day, and the save DC of the Grand Challenge.

    Dwarven Weapon Training: At 3rd level, the Clanhold Warden chooses one of the following weapons. Each of the weapons has an associated martial discipline. If the Clanhold Warden does not have access to that discipline, they gain access to that discipline, and that discipline’s associated skill becomes a class skill for the Clanhold Warden. If the Clanhold Warden already has access to that school, they instead increase the +2 competence bonus to DCs when using favored weapons for that school to a +4 competence bonus. Furthermore, the Clanhold Warden considers the chosen weapon to be an associated weapon with the school it would grant.

    Urgrosh: With the spear-point outstretched and the axe-head braced against the foot, few expect surging strikes from the axe-blade. The Urgrosh’s associated school is Mithral Current. So long as the Clanhold Warden is not flatfooted, he may ready an attack against a charge as a free action, even if it is not his turn, and enemies entering squares he threaten provoke attacks of opportunity. Furthermore, while the Urgrosh is braced, the axe-head of the Urgrosh is considered sheathed.

    Dorn-Dergar: The Dorn-Dergar is a fickle weapon, demanding attention both from the wielder and those he fights, but rewarding the attention given. The Dorn-Dergar’s associated school is Broken Blade, and the Clanhold Warden may utilise the Dorn-Dergar in martial strikes which call for unarmed attacks. The Clanhold Warden also gains the Combat Reflexes feat as a bonus feat, using his Wisdom modifier in place of his Dexterity modifier to determine the number of additional attacks of opportunity she may make each round.

    Waraxe: The school of the Scarlet throne is a brutal school, requiring both power and finesse. The Clanhold Warden thinks much the same of the Dwarven Waraxe. The Dwarven Waraxe’s associated school is Scarlet Throne. Furthermore, while the Clanhold Warden wields a Dwarven Waraxe in his main hand, he treats it as if he were wielding it with two hands.

    Warhammer: Combined with a stout shield, a Warhammer is one of the most common weapons seen in dwarven hands. The Warhammer's associated school is Iron Tortoise, and the Clanhold Warden's shield bashes are never considered off-hand weapons

    Longhammer, Longaxe: These weapons are favourites of mountain and hill dwarves suffering the depredations of giants. The Longahammer and Longaxe’s associated school is Piercing Thunder, and the Clanhold Warden may ignore 5ft. of mundane difficult terrain for every three initiator levels he posseses when he charges.

    (Note: The Dwarven Dorn-Dergar, Urgrosh, Longhammer and Longaxe do not have listed fighter weapon groups. It is advised that GMs consider the Dorn-dergar be considered a hammer and flail, the Urgrosh an axe, spear and double weapon, and the longhammer and longaxe polarms and hammers and axes, respeCtively)
    This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 3rd level, but not later bonus feats.

    Tactical Insight: The Clanhold Warden substitutes book-learning for common sense and received knowledge for quick-thinking, gaining his Wisdom bonus to his reflex saves and initiative in place of their Dexterity modifier (Using the higher of the two bonuses). This ability modifies Tactical Acumen.

    Favored Enemy
    At 6th level, a Clanhold Warden selects a creature type from the Ranger favored enemies table. He gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them. A Clanhold Warden may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures.

    At 12th level and again at 18th level, the Clanhold Warden may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2.

    If the Clanhold Warden chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. (Note that there are other types of humanoid to choose from—those called out specifically on the table below are merely the most common.) If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the Clanhold Warden's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. This ability replaces Clad in Steel and Steel Defense.

    Homes Under Siege: Dwarven clans are constantly under threat, either from Giants, Orcs, Dragons, Drow, or myriad other threats. After a lifetime of battling these enemies, the Clanhold Warden has learned how to defend against them, and abstract these techniques to defend against other threats. At 6th level, If the Clanhold Warden has any of the following selected as favored enemies, he gains the associated benefit:

    Humanoid (Orc): When an enemy attacks Clanhold Warden, that enemy cannot gain any bonuses related to wielding a weapon in two hands, such as bonus damage from strength, or favourable power attack multipliers.

    Humanoid (Elf): The Clanhold Warden's darkvision is not impeded by Supernatural Darkness.

    Humanoid (Giant): When the Clanhold Warden is targeted by a combat maneuver check, he gains an insight bonus to Combat Maneuver Defense equal to the attacker's size bonus to Combat Maneuver checks.

    Dragon: The Clanhold Warden gains evasion while wielding a shield. If he already has evasion, he instead gains improved evasion.

    Humanoid (Goblin): The Clanhold Warden's enemies gain no benefit from flanking him.
    Last edited by Sayt; 2015-04-14 at 01:31 AM.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

    My Homebrew:
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    The Clanhold Warden - Dwarf Racial Archetype for Dreamscarred Press' Warder
    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    RedOndjage's Avatar

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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    I love this archetype, however there are a few issues. First, a wording issue with Waraxe Training:

    Waraxe: The school of the Scarlet throne is a brutal school, requiring both power and finesse. The Clanhold Warden thinks much the same of the Dwarven Waraxe. The Dwarven Waraxe’s associated school is Scarlet Throne. Furthermore, while the Clanhold Warden wields a Dwarven Waraxe in his main hand, he treats it as if he were wielding it with two hands.

    In the bolded section, as written, I'm pretty sure the Warden can't use a shield, and is disqualified from certain Scarlet Maneuver stances and feats. I think a better way to word it would be: "Furthermore, while the Clanhold Warden wields a Dwarven Waraxe in his main hand, he applies 1.5 times his strength modifier and treats his off hand as empty for the purposes of Scarlet Throne maneuvers and styles if he is wielding a shield in it." What this will do is allow him to use the Scarlet Einhander stance and the Scarlet Throne Style feat, thereby granting better synergy with the discipline.

    Also, the Defensive Training ability would require allies to build their characters in a way to take advantage of the counters that the Clanhold Warden knows, since most of the counters in PoW require specific skills or equipment choices. Perhaps include a line that allows the ally to use the Clanhold Warden's skill bonus in place of their own, and to use their equipped weapons like shields for Iron Tortoise counters? I'm not quite sure how to word something like that, but I think that as written the ability isn't very useful without restricting your allies' builds.

    Lastly, perhaps the Defensive Training ability ought to use half the Clanhold Warden's initiator modifier to determine the number of counters a round, and the full modifier at level 10, rather than restricting how many maneuvers the Warden can recover? Defensive Focus is such a powerful ability for controlling the field, and giving your allies counters at the cost of maneuver recovery doesn't seem commensurate.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    Using half IM and then full IM for counters granted could work quite well, I'll definitely think about it.

    As for enemies using your counters, I honestly don't think parties using knowledge of each other builds is going to be that difficult, it just requires some communication. Any sowrda nd board fighter focusing on strength should be able to pull off Iron Shell, any given rogue should have a good shot at Sun Dips Low, and Monks should be half-decent at Scarlet Throne counters.

    As for the Waraxe, you merely count as using two hands, you still have a hand free, though I could clean up the wording some.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

    My Homebrew:
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    The Clanhold Warden - Dwarf Racial Archetype for Dreamscarred Press' Warder
    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    upho's Avatar

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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    *steps up to clanhold entrance, hands raised above head* Please put down your axes and hammers! I come in peace, even though I don't have an appropriate and apparently prerequisite "angry dwarf" avatar (though it seems I'm actually the only "dwarf in the playground" here). Since I noticed the "Homes Under Siege" feature lists neither "Outsider (chaotic)" or "Unbelievably Preposterous Humanoid Organism (UPHO)", I'm hoping you longbeards allow me one post before bludgeoning me back to my home plane...

    The flavor of this archetype is pretty perfect IMO - tastes like a mix of rich ale, hard granite and dirty beards, topped off with a splash of noble metals! And I think most of the mechanical benefits are appropriate and reasonably balanced. Nice!

    A few comments and questions:
    1. Defensive Training is currently limited to "ally under his aegis". I assume this means the ally must be able to hear the warden and the warden must be able to see the ally, but changing the wording to something like "ally who receives the bonuses of his aegis" might be good. Also, I actually think it might be OK to dump the aegis limitations if you keep the costs and other limitations for using the ability on about the same level as they currently are. And change the text to saying the ally is treated as if knowing the counter and having it readied after being instructed by the warden before combat, and doesn't need any further assistance from the warder in order to use it in combat. If you go for this solution, I suggest you also remove the need for the warden to take a free action, maybe not even requiring the warden to partake in the same combat as the ally. If you keep the ability as is, I also think the number of "grant-able" counters per round should be increased (RedOndjage's "half wis / full wis at 10th" seems like a good solution).
    2. The attack and damage bonus of Favored Enemy feels too striker-y for the dwarven elite defender flavor, better fitting with a warlord or especially stalker archetype IMO. And the clanhold warden who wants a capacity for high damage rounds can easily get it by simply picking a couple of suitable maneuvers and feats anyways. How about replacing the offensive benefits with something like a bonus to AC and/or saves instead?
    3. The dorn-dergar, longaxe and longhammer are currently not listed in any weapon groups, and the urgrosh is only listed in the double group. For completeness, I suggest adding that for the purpose of determining associated discipline and maneuver bonuses, the dorn-dergar belongs to the flail and hammer groups, the longaxe/-hammer to the polearm and axe/hammer groups, and the urgrosh to the axe or spear group (depending on which end is used) in addition to the double weapon group.

    .
    Keep up the good work!

    *flees from expected barrage of axes/bullets/beer jugs/small dwarves, and quickly hides to study the angry dwarves' reaction in safety while praising Torag for his love of short stubby legs*
    Last edited by upho; 2015-04-10 at 03:10 PM.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Defensive Training is currently limited to "ally under his aegis". I assume this means the ally must be able to hear the warden and the warden must be able to see the ally, but changing the wording to something like "ally who receives the bonuses of his aegis" might be good. Also, I actually think it might be OK to dump the aegis limitations if you keep the costs and other limitations for using the ability on about the same level as they currently are. And change the text to saying the ally is treated as if knowing the counter and having it readied after being instructed by the warden before combat, and doesn't need any further assistance from the warder in order to use it in combat. If you go for this solution, I suggest you also remove the need for the warden to take a free action, maybe not even requiring the warden to partake in the same combat as the ally. If you keep the ability as is, I also think the number of "grant-able" counters per round should be increased (RedOndjage's "half wis / full wis at 10th" seems like a good solution).
    For now I'm keeping the free action activation, but I've moved it to being up to 1/2 and then full IM, rather than up to recovered-2 and then recovered +2


    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    The attack and damage bonus of Favored Enemy feels too striker-y for the dwarven elite defender flavor, better fitting with a warlord or especially stalker archetype IMO. And the clanhold warden who wants a capacity for high damage rounds can easily get it by simply picking a couple of suitable maneuvers and feats anyways. How about replacing the offensive benefits with something like a bonus to AC and/or saves instead?
    Stopping the other guy from taking his next shot certainly seems like a dwarven part of defense, albeit a secondary one to not getting knocked down yourself. I considered, for a while, having a favored enemy that gave you an AC and Save bump, but I wanted it to stack with Ranger. The most you can get from this favored enemy is a +6 under limited circumstances, without access to instant enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    The dorn-dergar, longaxe and longhammer are currently not listed in any weapon groups, and the urgrosh is only listed in the double group. For completeness, I suggest adding that for the purpose of determining associated discipline and maneuver bonuses, the dorn-dergar belongs to the flail and hammer groups, the longaxe/-hammer to the polearm and axe/hammer groups, and the urgrosh to the axe or spear group (depending on which end is used) in addition to the double weapon group.
    Addressed, sort of, in as much as I've put a suggestion in.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

    My Homebrew:
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    The Clanhold Warden - Dwarf Racial Archetype for Dreamscarred Press' Warder
    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    For now I'm keeping the free action activation, but I've moved it to being up to 1/2 and then full IM, rather than up to recovered-2 and then recovered +2
    This should work fine, I think. I really like this different take on Defensive Focus btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    Stopping the other guy from taking his next shot certainly seems like a dwarven part of defense, albeit a secondary one to not getting knocked down yourself.
    Well, it's hard to argue against that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    I considered, for a while, having a favored enemy that gave you an AC and Save bump, but I wanted it to stack with Ranger. The most you can get from this favored enemy is a +6 under limited circumstances, without access to instant enemy.
    Good points. I also think it's generally good idea to mix your homebrew components with a bit of familiar stuff that stacks with/conforms to/copies existing abilities. But how about doing a little bit of both offensive and defensive? Perhaps:
    1. Limit the FE attack and damage bonuses to creatures marked by Armiger's Mark (allowing the damage bonus to be added also to an attack that applies the mark).
    2. Limit Steel Defense to heavy armor and shields (all types), but grant earlier access (12th level?).
    3. Grant the FE bonus to the Fort save and the armor's/shield's hardness when using Steel Defense against a marked FE.

    This would both stack with the ranger FE and give an associated defensive boost, emphasizing the trademark dwarven love of heavy armor, as well as the clanhold warder being especially skilled at using his armor against killing blows from familiar enemies.

    Maybe the limitation to marked creatures is a bit too fiddly if mixed up with the ranger FE though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    Addressed, sort of, in as much as I've put a suggestion in.
    Seems like a good, future-proof solution. (Extremely tiny nitpicks: the spelling of "respectively" is off, and the paragraph doesn't have an end parenthesis.)
    Last edited by upho; 2015-04-13 at 10:01 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    This should work fine, I think. I really like this different take on Defensive Focus btw.
    I'm personally a little worried that it's a little too situational?


    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Good points. I also think it's generally good idea to mix your homebrew components with a bit of familiar stuff that stacks with/conforms to/copies existing abilities. But how about doing a little bit of both offensive and defensive? Perhaps:
    1. Limit the FE attack and damage bonuses to creatures marked by Armiger's Mark (allowing the damage bonus to be added also to an attack that applies the mark).
    2. Limit Steel Defense to heavy armor and shields (all types), but grant earlier access (12th level?).
    3. Grant the FE bonus to the Fort save and the armor's/shield's hardness when using Steel Defense against a marked FE.

    This would both stack with the ranger FE and give an associated defensive boost, emphasizing the trademark dwarven love of heavy armor, as well as the clanhold warder being especially skilled at using his armor against killing blows from familiar enemies.

    Maybe the limitation to marked creatures is a bit too fiddly if mixed up with the ranger FE though.
    Generally, this is what I was trying to do with homes under siege, and I'd prefer not to mess with favoured enemy too much?
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!

    My Homebrew:
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    The Clanhold Warden - Dwarf Racial Archetype for Dreamscarred Press' Warder
    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

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    Default Re: [PoW] Warder Archetype: The Clanhold Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    I'm personally a little worried that it's a little too situational?
    It'll probably require a slightly different general party tactic than the vanilla warder's DF does, but I think it should be about as powerful. But this might need a bit of playtesting at various levels to know whether it needs tweaking or not. Which I might actually help you with within a couple of weeks, since I'm currently building some suitable dwarf NPCs the party is likely to ally with during a few combats. The party also includes a regular warder, so direct comparisons will be possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    Generally, this is what I was trying to do with homes under siege, and I'd prefer not to mess with favoured enemy too much?
    Actually, the more I think about it, my previous suggestion is just overly complicated. And I think you may safely add #2 (earlier but limited Steel Defense) and #3 (Steel Defense FE bonuses vs. marked FE) and keep Homes Under Siege without making the archetype unbalanced.

    Speaking of balance, something I forgot to mention earlier which you may not have considered yet: the wis IM makes the MC cleric/Battle Templar an amazing borderline no-brainer option. Not sure if you can, or even should, prevent or nerf this option, but you should at least be aware of it.
    Last edited by upho; 2015-04-16 at 09:58 AM.

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