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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Mystic Theurge question.

    Okay, I know that LogicNinja's guide to being the Batman says that the Mystic Theurge is vastly underpowered, but is that mostly due to teh fact that at low levels (say under 10) you are going to be outclassed by the other party members? After all, cheese aside, at level 7, you're still casting level 2 cleric and wizard spells as your high levels.

    But what about level 12 starting characters? Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 6 gives you an effective caster level of 9 in both arenas. Still only level 5 spells, compared to the level 6 you could be casting if you were pure cleric or wizard. But that seems like a pretty nice tradeoff. Effectively 18 levels of caster, at level 12.

    Especially if your party doesn't have any other casters at all.

    Thoughts? Comments? Flames?

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Sure, youve got lots of spells. At a lower DC than normal, lower effectiveness than normal, and you still cant cast all of them every day (barring endurance campaigns).

    Its generally never a great idea to be a MT type class, and in any case its not a good idea to be a MT type when youre the only caster. Just go straight cleric or some other divine build, but dont lose caster levels.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Well, there's the fact you'll only get 1 level 9 spell per day from the Wizard, and only 1+1 from the Cleric at level 20, and none before then.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Well, if your party literally has no other casters, then go for it.

    The reasoning behind the "Mystic Theurge = Lose" mentality is that even with all that magic at your disposal, you're only casting one spell per round. One weaker spell per round, to be exact. Apparently, getting those 9th level spells is just THAT important.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assassinfox View Post
    Well, if your party literally has no other casters, then go for it.
    And be behind both in healing AND other useful spells... instead of keeping the party up on at least one of them. Great idea, I guess this is why bards rock so hard!

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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Any way you look at it, your highest level spells as a Mystic Theurge will be less powerful than the highest level spells of a single class caster and the non-Theurge will have more spells of your highest level than you do. Even at the same spell level, your spells will be weaker because your caster level is lower. That part can be compensated for with a feat, but the non-theurge can use that same feat on something else so it just changes that advantage to something else.

    Pretty much no matter what you do, Mystic Theurge is trading power for versatility. The problem is that wizards and clerics are versatile enough already, so you're giving up power to gain something that (usually) doesn't really matter very much. The big exception to this is when you pair it with something like Ur Priest, but that's a bit cheesy.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2007-04-14 at 12:48 AM.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Chocobo View Post
    Well, there's the fact you'll only get 1 level 9 spell per day from the Wizard, and only 1+1 from the Cleric at level 20, and none before then.
    It's worse: you have to pick one of those. Remember, you can only take ten levels of theurge pre-epic, you'll have to pick either arcane or divine for those last four levels.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Full spellcasters rarely ever run out of spells, especially since a competent arcane caster can make most encounters only last a couple of rounds at the most. It is far more important to have powerful spells that will end an encounter quickly then more spells to last you through a longer encounter that you could have ended quickly with higher level higher caster level non MAD spells.

    And yes, more 9th level spells really are worth it, a 9th level spell can kill an entire group of enemies at once, give you extra turns, heal your entire party hundreads of hp, summon a monster more powerful then yourself, turn any creature with a mind into your slave, and even alter the fabric of reality. I don't know about you, but theres not much I wouldn't give up for an extra time stop in a day.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Ahhh. Gotcha.

    I think a lot of the argument here may be moot in the particular situation we're envisioning though, as this is likely a one-shot game at level 12. Thus there's no concern with regard to reaching level 9 spells, or what choices to make with upper levels.

    I can see the lower DCs being an issue though. Only time will tell what the player decides to do.

    And yes, this character will be the only real caster. Its shaping up to be a Warblade/rogue/assassin, a Bard(not firmed up yet what he's doing), a thug (likely a fighter or warblade) and this character. So having both arcane spells for offence and some cleric healing will be an asset.
    Last edited by Tyger; 2007-04-14 at 07:54 AM.

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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    It's not just 9th level spells, it's 8th level spells, 7th level spells, 6th level spells, etc. No matter what level you're at your highest level spell is lower than it could be or (for 9th level) has fewer uses per day, and any level-based variables (like damage dice and SR penetration) are three levels behind. However, healing is fairly critical and there are a number of very useful things wizards can do that aren't on the cleric spell list, so having at least some of both may be better than having nothing at all for one of them.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Being 3 spell levels behind is just not worth it, being 2 lvls behind is debatable, being 1 lvl behind is okay if the return is anything good

    Note the Tome of Battle, Incarnum, even the Binder dual classes are better than Mystic Theurge for even if you are the same level behind (which you aren't) these other forms of magic give a lot of passive benefits to the caster or they give abilities that spells don't replicate.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Just asking but are you familiar with the early entry tricks? Precocious Apprentice+Versatile Spellcaster (you got to have both), sanctum spell, earth spell, or the best one Improved Sigil Krau?

    (Note alot of DMs don't like Earth Spell and Sanctum Spell for those heightened spells are environment related, Improved Sigil Krau doesn't have that problem)
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    There is a feat that gives you a plus 4 caster level for one spell casting class. Can't remember what it's called.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Practiced Spellcaster.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rama_Lei View Post
    There is a feat that gives you a plus 4 caster level for one spell casting class. Can't remember what it's called.
    It doesn't increase your spells per day, spells known, or maximum spell level, however.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    You'd also have to take it twice.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    A sorceror/cleric mystic theurge is probably better than a pure sorceror. You can pick your sorceror spells based on what you can't duplicate through cleric, or stuff you'd like to be able to have available at any time without preparation, while still having the versatility of clerical spells.

    In pure hack and slash campaigns, Mystic Theurge is weaker. But if your DM makes you think, and requires versatility, and you actually don't spend most of your time rolling combat dice, Mystic Theurge is likely a better choice. Feats like "Practiced Spellcasting" get rid of much of the penalty involved, too, but don't make up for your lack of higher level spells.

    There's a witch PRC in a ravenloft book "Secrets of the Dread Realms" published by White Wolf that raises divine and arcane spellcasting simultaneously, and is much better than the Mystic Theurge. I'd look it up if you are considering a combination divine/arcane class. You will never be as good as two pure spellcasters of each type, but you can conceivably be more useful than either one of them alone.
    Last edited by Talya; 2007-04-14 at 10:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Also, Mystic Theurge levels help get to 9-th level spells on both sides in an Arcane Hierophant build. Which yeah, still has a lot of the dual-caster build problems, obviously, but at least Arcane Hierophant has some actual class features...

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Think of it as a math problem.

    The average D&D game has about 4 encounters per game day.

    The average D&D combat involving at least one full caster rarely lasts more then 5ish rounds.

    So assuming you cast a spell every round of combat, the average full caster will cast 20ish spells per game day. And if for some reason you need to go beyond that, you can usually use Rope Trick or Teleport or whatever to retreat, sleep, and come back with more spells.

    Thus, you rarely have use for more then 20ish spell slots, and you want those spells to be as powerful as possible.

    Furthermore, the primary source of serious magical power is metamagic. And in order to fuel metamagic, you need the highest level slots possible.

    A MT has way more spell slots then it will ever use in an average game days. It will always be at least 3 levels behind other casters. And it has a much harder time fueling metamagic.

    And as a general rule, parties do best when you divide up niches, respect each others niches, and optimize your build to handle your niches. That way everyone is good at what they do, no one steps into anyone else's spotlight, and no one has to play a mediocre build like the MT.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Bottom Line:

    If YOU really want to be a mystic theurge, then to hell with optimization.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assassinfox View Post
    Bottom Line:

    If YOU really want to be a mystic theurge, then to hell with optimization.
    I couldn't agree more, Assassinfox. You have my congratulations for having the most common sense of anyone here. I typed up a huge paragraph containing my reasonings for why the Mystic Theurge really is useful, but with one sentence you've made a far better argument for the class than my endless verbosity, making it pointless for me to even bother posting everything I originally intended to.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assassinfox View Post
    Bottom Line:

    If YOU really want to be a mystic theurge, then to hell with optimization.
    Disagree you can optimized a mystic theurge if you know what you are doing. You will still be a generalist and a specialist can kick your ass no matter what, regardless you can be a good generalist instead of just a sucky one. For example this build.

    In sum you can optimize anything, doesn't make it good though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix00 View Post
    I agree with early entries that go against the RAI (or use lots of spat books) Fochlucan Lyrist can be pretty good. (More or less you have to be in FR but there are other tricks in the link below)

    Bard 1/Archivist 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

    Bardic Music and Knowledge of 11th lvl Bard
    Casts Archivist and Wizard at 18th lvl
    15 BAB if using partials
    Good Skillpoints (104+23*Int Skillpoints and since you have a high int due to casting=a lot of skillpoints)

    Here is how you get into Fochlucan Lyrist easily
    Bardic Tutealge (Region option for languages, you were raised in a bardic college/taught by a bard, allows you to get language druidic. Champions of Valor, preview of this option located here)
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a
    Get evasion by the Shadowalker template in Unapproachable East (+1LA buy it off if you can), or the shape soulmeld option
    Take Able Learner at lvl 1 to keep your skills up
    Take Improved Sigil (Krau) to get early entry (treat as many spells as you have sigils for as influenced by the heighten spell metamagic at no increase of casting time and it still occupies the old slot, thus 2nd lvl spells with the 1st lvl slot)

    More ideas on early entry here.
    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=377248
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix00 View Post
    Also forgot to mention
    Since making a prepared spell list of both an Archivist and Wizard would be a headache, thus doing 2 spontaneous casters may be better in your mind such as the

    Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix00 View Post
    Just to compare the previous two builds and total number of spells vs the base class. Note if there is a "negative number" that means the base class has more spells of that level than the hybrid mystic theurge/Fochlucan Lyrist build, a positive numbe and the Fochlucan Lyrist has the more spells of that level


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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Disagree you can optimized a mystic theurge if you know what you are doing. You will still be a generalist and a specialist can kick your ass no matter what, regardless you can be a good generalist instead of just a sucky one. For example this build.
    I don't disagree, necessarily, but I would like to point out that if you redefine 'optimized', the mystic theurge can be quite powerful. Try making a character who excels at defending her party from magical and physical harm, as well as healing them and making them stronger in battle. Just because you aren't the one killing all the enemies doesn't mean you aren't as useful or powerful. If your allies cannot be harmed by what is attacking them, you've effectively killed the enemy in one turn by neutralizing the threat that they posed. A pure wizard or pure cleric just doesn't have a wide enough range of spells to fill that role completely. A cleric has the healing, but doesn't have much in the way of defense against magic, and vise versa. Also, for this sort of spellcaster, its better to be able to cast a whole bunch of the very useful lower level spells than a couple powerful high level spells.

    ...the above is extremely opinionated, of course. but that just brings us back to the idea of: if you want to blast the heck out of your enemies, take a pure casting class. If you want to do something a bit different, mystic theurge might be the way to go.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Autarch, the popular opinion on these boards is that "blasting" people is a waste of time for either wizards or clerics, and that trying to kill (rather than render ineffective) enemies by yourself is a poor use of spells when you're in a party. That doesn't change the fact that a mystic theurge will not be as good at any of the things he might want to do as would an equal-level wizard or cleric. It comes down to the idea that trying to be two things at once, and thus being worse at both of them than your enemies, is a bad idea.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    However epic play changes things, a 5 cleric/5 wizard/ 15 MT has his level 9 spells and is only five CL behind a pure caster, something that i'm sure someone on the charop boards can compensate for. Good luck if you're playing through those levels but its a pretty good build if you're starting in the 20s.
    Last edited by Laesin; 2007-04-14 at 11:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Autarch View Post
    I don't disagree, necessarily, but I would like to point out that if you redefine 'optimized', the mystic theurge can be quite powerful. Try making a character who excels at defending her party from magical and physical harm, as well as healing them and making them stronger in battle.
    Well I define optimized as being the best at whatever nieche you are trying to make. I don't define optimized as being the most powerful or useful for the party, I don't define optimized as able to solo encounters of your CR. I just define optimize as taking a class natural strengths and trying to maximize those strengths and mitigating/minimizing its weaknesses.

    For example a buffer, a bard, dragon shaman, or marshal may not be the best character, but you can easily take its strengths and maximize them so they can be advantageous to the party. Likewise to the mystic theurge, you can take its strengths and maximize them.

    A mystic theurge strengths is that it has dual casting and thus can have a very varied spell list with losts of slots.
    A mystic theurge weaknesses are mostly inherent in how you qualify for the prc. It usually takes 3 levels to get in, thus an early entry trick that only makes you 1 lvl behind or 2 lvls behind will remedy most of the weaknesses. The other weaknesses of dual casting stats, and limited actions per round can be remedied by choosing classes that have the same stat, and having a large mixture of spells. A mystic theurge should be focusing a lot of its slots on permanent buffing the party members out of battle with long duration spells to take advantage of all its spell slots but limited actions per round.


    Of course a specialist arcanist or specialist divine may still be more useful to an encounter due to specialization, but a mystic theuge if designed correctly can be a jack of all trades. Note the first rule with MTs is always getting into the class a lot earlier or using a faster progression class.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Think of it as a math problem.

    The average D&D game has about 4 encounters per game day.

    The average D&D combat involving at least one full caster rarely lasts more then 5ish rounds.
    Yes, and then somebody has to cast the healing spells. If there's no divine caster handy, then the mystic theurge is your go-to guy for this.

    An Xth level mystic theurge will never be as capable as an Xth level wizard and an Xth level cleric working together. And they will never be as good an arcanist as an Xth level wizard, nor will they ever be as good a divinist as an Xth level cleric.

    But I think they're better than having an Xth level wizard and no cleric or an Xth level cleric and no wizard. Which is what this group is looking at, unless somebody else 'gets stuck' playing a caster that they don't want to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Autarch, the popular opinion on these boards is that "blasting" people is a waste of time for either wizards or clerics, and that trying to kill (rather than render ineffective) enemies by yourself is a poor use of spells when you're in a party.
    This is kind of beside the point. The Mystic Theurge can use his wizard spells for whatever he wants. He's still harming enemies via magic when he renders them ineffective.

    That doesn't change the fact that a mystic theurge will not be as good at any of the things he might want to do as would an equal-level wizard or cleric. It comes down to the idea that trying to be two things at once, and thus being worse at both of them than your enemies, is a bad idea.
    Granted. If two parties, one with a mystic theurge and three noncasters, and one with a cleric, a wizard, and two noncasters go up against each other, the first party is at a disadvantage.

    But what if both parties have three noncasters, while one party has a mystic theurge and the other has a cleric or a wizard? That's the actual situation the original post is talking about, and no amount of argument about why mystic theurges are suboptimal can get around it.

    No one caster can ever be as effective as two casters. But having one caster that can do either caster's job (to a limited degree) isn't clearly worse than having one caster that can do one job well and the other job not at all.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag View Post
    Yes, and then somebody has to cast the healing spells. If there's no divine caster handy, then the mystic theurge is your go-to guy for this.

    An Xth level mystic theurge will never be as capable as an Xth level wizard and an Xth level cleric working together. And they will never be as good an arcanist as an Xth level wizard, nor will they ever be as good a divinist as an Xth level cleric.

    But I think they're better than having an Xth level wizard and no cleric or an Xth level cleric and no wizard. Which is what this group is looking at, unless somebody else 'gets stuck' playing a caster that they don't want to play.
    If you are in such a party where you can't fufill the three rolls your DM should seriously allow you to use leadership, and a cohort who is 2 lvls behind will usually be better than a mystic theurge.
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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    Would the Mystic Theurge be more effective in a military organization, where being able to cast lots of spells on lots of troops be a significant advantage?

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    Default Re: Mystic Theurge question.

    I think Mystic Theurge needs some extra "perks" like the other combo-PrCs based on it, like Arcane Hierophant or Ultimate Magus.

    An ability to cast a divine and an arcane spell in one turn would certainly help.
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