Captured by goblins! But is it fair?

[Totema]

In a D&D 5e session I'm planning, my party of ~4 1st level characters is going to investigate an abandoned outpost that was taken over by goblins. Naturally, the goblins are keeping an eye on the surroundings, and when the party reaches a certain distance away from the outpost, a nearby rock will lift up like a trapdoor and a small handful of goblin guards will climb out of a tight tunnel underneath and order the party to follow them. They'll be taken to the outpost and positioned at the base of its tower, where the boss of the goblin warband stands to speak with them. If the party makes the boss angry, he will trigger a net trap to spring up from where they are standing to immobilize them, whereupon they'll be taken to the outpost's basement and locked in a cell.

Now, if the party is being stealthy before the initial group of goblins finds them, they might not even get spotted at all and can continue to the outpost unhindered. An early perception check at the rock could reveal that it doesn't look in place and may have been moved. They have the opportunity to fight off the goblins, though the number of them makes this a risky-looking option. If they've already been taken to the tower, a perception check could reveal that they're standing on a trap as they talk with the boss. And if the trap is triggered, a dexterity save (with a lower DC if they noticed the trap beforehand) will let them get out of the way before it's fully sprung. Party members that separated from the captured and/or trapped group have the opportunity to go back to town for backup, or continue sneaking around if applicable. And the group that does end up getting thrown in the cell will have opportunities to break out, though I haven't written them yet.

Despite having all these additional conditions, this encounter doesn't sit well with me. Is there anything else I can do to make it feel more fair?

[jaydubs]

The only thing that might seem unfair is the net. First, have the perception check come before stepping on the trap, so the character can opt not to step on it at all. Second, there's no reason a net needs to be an instant "you're captured." The PHB details what a net does. It causes the restrained condition, which can be removed with either a strength check or cutting through the net. Just ramp up those number slightly since it's a pre-set net trap, rather than a hand-thrown net.

[Elana]

Give them early warning.
If they see evidence that people approaching the outpost are ambushed they will be on guard for that sort of thing.


And fairness is overrated anyway.
Think about what makes sense.
And more how important how to continue the story either way

[Totema]

The only thing that might seem unfair is the net. First, have the perception check come before stepping on the trap, so the character can opt not to step on it at all. Second, there's no reason a net needs to be an instant "you're captured." The PHB details what a net does. It causes the restrained condition, which can be removed with either a strength check or cutting through the net. Just ramp up those number slightly since it's a pre-set net trap, rather than a hand-thrown net.

The trap I had in mind works like the net the Ewoks used in Return of the Jedi, in that it would end up lifting the PCs up off the ground a considerable distance. So I think a simple restrained condition might not suffice here.

[VoxRationis]

Well, either the net is uncovered, and thus easily visible, or it has some sort of camouflage over it, which would (presumably) get in the way of its operation, if only slightly. So either the Perception DC is going to be low, or the Dexterity save DC is going to be low. Either way, there's at least one easy check the characters can use to avoid it.

Unless the "net" is under a rug, so that they get caught up in a sack, which would make cutting through it harder...

But that would make the situation less fair, so we'll assume goblins don't have rugs.

[jaydubs]

The trap I had in mind works like the net the Ewoks used in Return of the Jedi, in that it would end up lifting the PCs up off the ground a considerable distance. So I think a simple restrained condition might not suffice here.

If I recall the scene correctly, they managed to cut themselves out without too much trouble. I'd argue the restrained condition (and the possibility of cutting through the net) is perfectly reflected by that scene.

As for the height, just make it falling damage, with something like acrobatics to negate/half/whatever. I forget what it is in 5e. d6 per 10 feet? Make it 20 feet. 2d6, DC 12 acrobatics check to halve. That's very unlikely to kill anyone outright, could well knock someone out, but requires a number of poor rolls (perception, dex save, acrobatics check) to get really screwed by. And it all makes sense in terms of verisimilitude.

[Totema]

Well, either the net is uncovered, and thus easily visible, or it has some sort of camouflage over it, which would (presumably) get in the way of its operation, if only slightly. So either the Perception DC is going to be low, or the Dexterity save DC is going to be low. Either way, there's at least one easy check the characters can use to avoid it.

Unless the "net" is under a rug, so that they get caught up in a sack, which would make cutting through it harder...

But that would make the situation less fair, so we'll assume goblins don't have rugs.

I originally had them both at 15 - strange for me, I tend to err on the side of overkindness - but have since lowered them to 10. The Dex save DC is 5 if the player is aware of the trap. I'll also allow players to cut through the net with any bladed weapons or tools they have on hand, probably a kind of damage roll.

Starting to feel a little more confident that this encounter will work.

If I recall the scene correctly, they managed to cut themselves out without too much trouble. I'd argue the restrained condition (and the possibility of cutting through the net) is perfectly reflected by that scene.

As for the height, just make it falling damage, with something like acrobatics to negate/half/whatever. I forget what it is in 5e. d6 per 10 feet? Make it 20 feet. 2d6, DC 12 acrobatics check to halve. That's very unlikely to kill anyone outright, could well knock someone out, but requires a number of poor rolls (perception, dex save, acrobatics check) to get really screwed by. And it all makes sense in terms of verisimilitude.

You're right, I was too lazy to check my book and thought restrained only prevented movement.

[Ralanr]

Not to be "That guy" but shouldn't this be in the 5e subforum?

[Totema]

Not to be "That guy" but shouldn't this be in the 5e subforum?

Don't think it's a 5e-specific question, it's more about whether it feels like I'm railroading my players too much.

[Yora]

Since the consequences are pretty minor and the goblins don't intend to kill the characters, I don't see any problem with this. It's not like you are negating any work the players have done.
The only thing I would keep in mind is that you should not tell the players that they are walking down that path and suddenly they are surrounded. I would tell them the stronghold is visible in the distance and then let them chose how to approach it. If they chose to walk along the path, it's then their own descision and they have to deal with the consequence of walking into an avoidable ambush.

[Maglubiyet]

Don't be surprised if the PC's don't comply with the initial order to follow the goblin guards, which would invalidate your later net trap. Giving up mobility and freedom by voluntarily walking into an encampment of hostile humanoids would probably be far worse than getting ensnared in the trap.

If they manage to escape the net they're still surrounded, so what advantage does it give them?

[YossarianLives]

Don't be surprised if the PC's don't comply with the initial order to follow the goblin guards, which would invalidate your later net trap. Giving up mobility and freedom by voluntarily walking into an encampment of hostile humanoids would probably be far worse than getting ensnared in the trap.

If they manage to escape the net they're still surrounded, so what advantage does it give them?

I agree. I would most likely try to fight the original goblins or run away even if it meant my characters death.

[blacklight101]

I agree. I would most likely try to fight the original goblins or run away even if it meant my characters death.

Exactly my thought. I wouldn't stand for some little gobbo trying to order me around. even at lv 1 I would put up a pretty good fight before I go with my would-be capturers.

If they get captured, it should be because of combat or truly bad choices, like listening to the gobbos. If they listen, they should just get turned into gobbo stew and reroll characters.

It's d&d, you're supposed to kill them all and take their stuff anyway. Personally, I don't see why they would go. Not at all. Unless stuff really changed since 3.x, a gobbo is no big threat. Not like its a Warhammer Goblin, after all.

[Thrudd]

As long as you allow the players to take whatever action they like, there is not only one way to bypass the scenario, and you enforce the consequences of their choices, I don't see anything wrong.
Do they know they are approaching a goblin stronghold? If they are careful they should be able to notice signs that there might be something about. It could turn into a chase, if they see they are outnumbered and cut their way out of their captor's ambush and make a break for it, rather than surrendering. Of course, at first level someone might get killed. As long as you're ok with that result, there's no problem with this scenario.

[mephnick]

Goblins are jerks and inherently untrustworthy. I'd consider myself a pretty bad adventurer if some goblins told me to follow them into a dark cave and I was like "Yep, sounds legit.". I'd go along with it if it was obvious the DM wanted me to, but the minute any of them looked at me wrong I'd start shredding goblin face.

So be prepared for that.

[erikun]

You have a few problems with your plan, most notably that the PCs will walk right into the trap door, that the PCs will fall into the trap, that they will go quietly with the first set of goblins, that they won't notice the second trap, that they'll disagree with the goblin chief, and that they'll all get caught in the second trap. None of this is necessarily going to happen, and certainly not in the order you plan.

I would probably recommend the net-trap-chief-room to be a final gambit, either if the PCs get knocked out or if/when they confront the chief directly. A sudden scramble of flunkies while the chief yells "Pull the switch! Throw the trap!" and the PCs try to madly scramble away from what they realize to be the only rug in the place should be interesting. I would also recommend tossing the PCs into a prison with all their gear, since it would be far easier to just throw the group into a hole, net and all, than it would be to try to separate them out individually.

Other than that, probably plan it as a standard encounter and stuff like "goblins guarding the trap door" just in case some/all of the party falls down that way. It leaves you more open to PC plans and less vulnerable to unexpected success, or a single PC succeeding and then stuck in a situation where you need to run a solo campaign in order to get the group back together.

[Totema]

Looking back on it now, I want to make the players feel more convinced that they should let the goblins escort them to the tower. Not that I intend on only limiting them to that option, but I did build most of this adventure chapter around them breaking out of their cell.

Or perhaps I could take a different approach entirely. Maybe some milquetoast NPCs were captured by the goblins, and the PCs are assigned with getting them set free? ...Yes, I think I like this idea more. It enables a more desirable diplomatic option, yet still leaves it open to having the party becoming captured themselves if they make a wrong move. I'll try to work on from this angle instead.

[veti]

I really don't see what's "unfair" here. The goblins are intelligent opponents, they can lay an intelligent trap. Imagine the PCs were laying the trap - would they pull punches, would they make their rocks and nets and trapdoors glaringly obvious just "to be fair"? I don't think so.

So long as the players have options at all times (except when they're unconscious, paralysed or otherwise physically or magically restrained) - there's no such thing as "unfair". Hit 'em.

[Tvtyrant]

Looking back on it now, I want to make the players feel more convinced that they should let the goblins escort them to the tower. Not that I intend on only limiting them to that option, but I did build most of this adventure chapter around them breaking out of their cell.

Or perhaps I could take a different approach entirely. Maybe some milquetoast NPCs were captured by the goblins, and the PCs are assigned with getting them set free? ...Yes, I think I like this idea more. It enables a more desirable diplomatic option, yet still leaves it open to having the party becoming captured themselves if they make a wrong move. I'll try to work on from this angle instead.

If you wanted an "Escape the jail cell" situation you should have down a closing latch pit trap into the jail cell :P

[erikun]

It is entirely valid to start a game with the PCs having fallen down the pit trap, or already in prison, if that is your goal. Just make it somewhat believable, such as a sudden collapse of the popular trail into a tunnel the goblins were digging, or the PCs having surrendered because the goblins threatened women and children during a village raid. Most groups shouldn't have too large of a problem with it, especially if it's not something you use or abuse very much. Just don't expect the PCs to limit themselves to diplomatic responses, especially with the kidnapping-a-village idea.