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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    tongue The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Before we really dig in to the meat of this one, let me just say that rule 0 applies double to 5th edition. While everything here is RAW legal, YMMV due to DM interpretation. Below are some things that require DM interpretation, but if you don't care about that, then just read on over it.

    Spoiler: Things to ask your DM about
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    Some mission critical things.
    1. Is Cheese allowed? On a scale of 1 to Pun-Pun, this is about a 6. Optimization should be OK at your table before you break this out.
    2. Can you have more spell slots than your normal "slots per level" indicate? If so, how long do they last? The DM has to make a ruling on this, and the build doesn't work without it. There isn't really a "default assumption" available. My interpretation is that yes, you can (my case for that below), but everything resets at the end of a long rest when you "regain" your normal number of slots. (Update: Errata says this is correct)
    3. Can you convert a non-sorcerer spell slot into sorcery points? Nothing says you can't; I think you can.


    Some nice things
    1. Do you have to trance all at once? You need 4 hours to gain the benefit of being rested, but do you have to do it all at once? Note that this is for the purpose of not "feeling fatigued," not for gaining the benefits of a long rest. This is one of those rare times where the two may be different.
    2. Are Drow allowed as a race? It says to ask in the PHB, so you should.
    3. Drow Corollary: can I wear sunglasses to deal with the sunlight sensitivity thing? Is there any way to deal with sunlight sensitivity other than getting me and everyone else out of the sun?
    4. What is needed to make a healing potion? Foregoing long rests means you'll need some other source of healing. The PHB says herbalism kits, the DMG says "whatever the DM wants."



    With that aside, here is Java Do'Urden, The Sleepless Sorclock

    Drow Sorcerer 2/Warlock 1 (Archfey)
    Abilities (27 point buy)
    Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16
    ~21 HP
    Proficient with light armor, simple weapons

    Background: Hermit for Herbalism Kit
    Spoiler: Sorcerer Spells Known:
    Show

    Cantrips
    1. Acid Splash
    2. Friends
    3. Mage Hand
    4. Minor Illusion

    Level 1
    1. Burning Hands
    2. Color Spray
    3. Shield



    Spoiler: Warlock Spells Known:
    Show

    Cantrips
    1. Prestidigitation
    2. Poison Spray

    Level 1
    1. Armor of Agathys
    2. Hex



    So how does Java work? Well, in essence, Java uses short rests to regain warlock spell slots which she then turns into sorcery points, which are burned for even more sorcerer spell slots. Because Java does not take long rests, she instead gains the benefit of 4-8 short rests while the rest of the party is sleeping. During her 2 hours a night of mandatory "light activity" (must interrupt a long rest, but still qualify for a short rest) Java makes coffee.

    Now, at level 3, 8 short rests will produce 8 sorcery points, which is lower than the 9 sorcery points a regular level 3 sorcerer would produce just by actually sleeping. Java as shown here is just the lowest level at which you can do this trick. It's a bit like getting the sorcerer capstone at level 3.
    But lets look at some higher levels:
    Java at level 6 (Sorc 3/Lock 3) will produce 32 sorcery points every night. A regular sorcerer will only get 25.
    Java at level 10 (Sorc 3/Lock 7) will get 64 sorcery points every night. A regular sorcerer will get 51.

    Of course, that's a false equivalency. While Java at level 10 can buy the same number of 5th level spells that a regular sorcerer could, she wouldn't be able to cast 5th level spells, so what's the point?
    The point is: Java never sleeps. She never loses her extra spell slots. She just keeps accumulating them. For one night, she just barely keeps up with a regular sorcerer. But after 2 nights? A week? Java just keeps getting more powerful!

    Update 2015:
    Spoiler: The Pro-Java Case
    Show

    Java does rely on the DM for rule interpretation as to whether you can have more spell slots then are shown on your table. However, if they're on the fence, here are some RAW things you can show them to bolster your case!
    • Other classes use "recovery" mechanics that all explicitly say that they recover spell slots. The wizard's (PHB 115) arcane recovery mechanic specifically says "you can choose expended spell slots to recover" and again for the diviner's (PHB 116) expert divination "you regain one expended spell slot" and the moon druid's (PHB 68) natural recovery "you choose expended spell slots to recover." WotC took great care to repeat themselves whenever they wanted you to only be able to have a certain number of spell slots.
    • But that isn't the case for the sorcerer! Sorcery points create spell slots. Page 101 of the PHB is very explicit when it says that sorcery points can be used to create spell slots, not recover them. Even in the sorcery point description itself it says "you can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th" and "You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level." I think they said exactly what they meant.



    But that's just the rules. Who cares what they have to say if you have a character running around who has completely broken the game? Well, Java might work differently from other characters/casters, but how broken is Java really?

    Java's weaknesses:
    Healing! Java doesn't have any way of recovering hit dice without actually taking some head -> pillow time. You'll drain the party resources without either hunkering down for the night or dipping into a healing class. Healing potions or the Healer feat will help a lot, but that's still 5 gp per 1d6+4 HP. Very expensive!
    Attack rolls in sunlight. Because Drow. Some of the best damage spells require attack rolls. Even though you won't run out of them, it's a pain to waste an action missing. Faerie Fire helps deal with that, but it's better just to pick spells that don't need attack rolls. Java could work as a different kind of elf, but then you wouldn't get the CHA bonus!
    You won't have the same nova potential. You don't have the same level of spells a single-classed caster does. But you have a whole lot more of what you do have. This is the big sticking point. How many castings of "magic missile" make up for the fact that you can't cast "scorching ray"? Well, magic missile's 3d4+3 yields you about 10.5 damage while that scorching ray deals 6d6 or about 21 damage. If combat goes for 3 rounds, Java can cast magic missile 3 times, and a regular caster could fire off a scorching ray + 2 cantrips. So 31.5 damage vs 33 damage (assuming firebolt). Does that seem overpowered to you?
    Finally: DM shutdown. Java isn't terribly broken but things don't bother her as much as a normal caster when she can just burn a first level spell for shield every turn. Make sure the DM has had their coffee before presenting this to them.

    Update 2017:
    New material! First, the errata has settled one issue about having spell slots disappear at the end of a long rest. They do, so it's good we don't take them.
    Second: Warlock UA has Aspect of the Moon invocation which, if allowed, removes the need for sleep. Java as presented here has no need for this, and doesn't have invocations yet, but this really opens up the available races.
    Third: Sorcerer UA has the Favored Soul subclass, which includes the ability to grab cure wounds. If allowed, this solves a lot of the healing problems, and makes your party love you a lot more. This is strictly better than PHB options.
    Finally, after 3.5 years, this build still seems to work. I'm very grateful to all the posters who helped me discover new material and helped me work out the rules to help Java keep drinking coffee.
    Last edited by XmonkTad; 2017-10-08 at 10:26 PM. Reason: New UA, Errata, Suggestions

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    [img]cheese, of the sharp cheddar variety[/img]

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Spoiler: Cheese
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    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
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    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
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    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    This is pretty awesome, but you missed something in the Sorcerer list.

    You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level.
    Or maybe you didn't. You did specify spell slots. Though it does point to your interpretation in point number two being denied. The other big reason you denied is because you are going by Air Bud rules (There's nothing saying I can't do it, so thus I can do it!) which is just silly.


    The other big weakness you didn't really mention was damage. Without long rests your natural healing quickly hits zero, and it's not that hard to just beat on Java til she collapses. (Java is totally a girl's name). Even with shield spamming, it's not impossible to smack her around (particularly if you can get advantage) and then there is AoE damage to soak up. At which point you are becoming a massive drain on party resources to keep you going.

    Basically I think Java would burn out before a normal sorcerer or normal warlock when faced with less then optimal circumstances.

    EDIT: I know this goes without saying really, but multiclassing also has to be allowed.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post

    The other big weakness you didn't really mention was damage. Without long rests your natural healing quickly hits zero, and it's not that hard to just beat on Java til she collapses. (Java is totally a girl's name). Even with shield spamming, it's not impossible to smack her around (particularly if you can get advantage) and then there is AoE damage to soak up. At which point you are becoming a massive drain on party resources to keep you going.

    Basically I think Java would burn out before a normal sorcerer or normal warlock when faced with less then optimal circumstances.
    The simple solution to that is to either be a Favored Soul sorcerer with the Life domain for Cure Wounds, Take Magic initiate for cure wounds, or just take your first level in Cleric for Heavy Armor and Cure Wounds.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Well, the consensus is that this is cheesy. Oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Or maybe you didn't. You did specify spell slots. Though it does point to your interpretation in point number two being denied.
    Yeah. When I came up with the idea for Java that was a big sticking point. If I could have more sorcery points than the maximum, then it would be really crazy because at level 3 Java could be running around with 5th level spell slots. Of course, that doesn't work, so we're stuck with just lots and lots of lower level spell slots. That is, until Sorc 7, where java can make 5th level spell slots (possibly before anyone else gets them).

    I'm pretty sure there isn't anything in the book about having more spell slots than your maximum. The entry on flexible casting just says that you can a spell slot of level X for Y sorcery points as a bonus action. Something might get tweeted out about it later, but I don't see why a level 2 sorcerer couldn't wake up at the start of the day and say "I have literally nothing else to do with these so I'm just going to spend these 2 sorcery points to make a 1st level slot now rather than waste a bonus action later doing it." It would be strange if the DM said no to that.

    The other big weakness you didn't really mention was damage. Without long rests your natural healing quickly hits zero, and it's not that hard to just beat on Java til she collapses. (Java is totally a girl's name). Even with shield spamming, it's not impossible to smack her around (particularly if you can get advantage) and then there is AoE damage to soak up. At which point you are becoming a massive drain on party resources to keep you going.

    Basically I think Java would burn out before a normal sorcerer or normal warlock when faced with less then optimal circumstances.
    As for getting smacked up, Java isn't particularly more or less vulnerable than any other caster. Unlimited temp HP (though never much at one time), unlimited use of shield (what else was I using reactions for?), that's as good as most level 3 casters can boast. Heck, that wizard is going to spend a slot on mage armor just to match the fact that Java can actually wear armor. Proficiency in Con saves is none too shabby either.

    The healing thing is a big issue though, that is true. I had hoped that taking the Herbalism kit would let you make healing potions, but it's up to the DM as to what is needed to make one (other than 100g and 4 days). I mean, Java can sleep if needed, but it sort of resets everything and isn't what you want to do every day.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    no point in advancing your warlock level past the point where a single spell fills your sorcery pool (which is capped to 3 at any one time). personally, i'd actually recommend you just go lock 3/sorcerer 17 in the long run; you get the majority of what you want out of warlock by the time you've hit level 3 in it (assuming you want your pact), and 32 points per night is plenty, especially if you stockpile during downtime.

    as for healing, this won't help at level 1, but you could eventually pick up vampiric touch. also, at some point, you should really invest in the healer feat.

    plus of course, you're fairly likely to find yourself at some point needing to burn yourself down below your maximum spell slots. on such days, you may want to take a long rest. especially for your high level spell slots, which cannot be replenished except with a long rest.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarab112 View Post
    The simple solution to that is to either be a Favored Soul sorcerer with the Life domain for Cure Wounds, Take Magic initiate for cure wounds, or just take your first level in Cleric for Heavy Armor and Cure Wounds.
    I absolutely love the Favored Soul idea. Java would make a spectacular healer as a Life Domain FS sorcerer. Pushing the DM to allow that particular subclass might be difficult, because that would provide you with a ton of healing. Dipping life cleric seems like a big sacrifice as Java is already running behind the single classed full casters, and magic initiate specifically requires a long rest before you can cast that spell again (poor Java).

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    no point in advancing your warlock level past the point where a single spell fills your sorcery pool (which is capped to 3 at any one time). personally, i'd actually recommend you just go lock 3/sorcerer 17 in the long run; you get the majority of what you want out of warlock by the time you've hit level 3 in it (assuming you want your pact), and 32 points per night is plenty, especially if you stockpile during downtime.

    as for healing, this won't help at level 1, but you could eventually pick up vampiric touch. also, at some point, you should really invest in the healer feat.

    plus of course, you're fairly likely to find yourself at some point needing to burn yourself down below your maximum spell slots. on such days, you may want to take a long rest. especially for your high level spell slots, which cannot be replenished except with a long rest.
    That's very true. Warlock 3 would probably be my limit too. Java doesn't really operate differently from a regular caster before level 3 though. Before that it's the normal long rest nights.

    The healer feat idea is really good. If the DM doesn't allow for favored soul sorcerers, then that feat is a really good idea.
    Last edited by XmonkTad; 2015-04-15 at 12:02 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    and magic initiate specifically requires a long rest before you can cast that spell again (poor Java).
    Magic Initiate says that you learn the spell as well, which means you can cast it with your normal spell slots.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Been editing my previous post, and now I need to resay stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarab112 View Post
    The simple solution to that is to either be a Favored Soul sorcerer with the Life domain for Cure Wounds, Take Magic initiate for cure wounds, or just take your first level in Cleric for Heavy Armor and Cure Wounds.
    That works (well not the favored soul part. They don't exist.) Though Cleric gives you medium armor, not heavy. But point taken. It does slow you down a level, but for nigh unlimited healing it's worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Well, the consensus is that this is cheesy. Oh well.


    Yeah. When I came up with the idea for Java that was a big sticking point. If I could have more sorcery points than the maximum, then it would be really crazy because at level 3 Java could be running around with 5th level spell slots. Of course, that doesn't work, so we're stuck with just lots and lots of lower level spell slots. That is, until Sorc 7, where java can make 5th level spell slots (possibly before anyone else gets them).

    I'm pretty sure there isn't anything in the book about having more spell slots than your maximum. The entry on flexible casting just says that you can a spell slot of level X for Y sorcery points as a bonus action. Something might get tweeted out about it later, but I don't see why a level 2 sorcerer couldn't wake up at the start of the day and say "I have literally nothing else to do with these so I'm just going to spend these 2 sorcery points to make a 1st level slot now rather than waste a bonus action later doing it." It would be strange if the DM said no to that.



    As for getting smacked up, Java isn't particularly more or less vulnerable than any other caster. Unlimited temp HP (though never much at one time), unlimited use of shield (what else was I using reactions for?), that's as good as most level 3 casters can boast. Heck, that wizard is going to spend a slot on mage armor just to match the fact that Java can actually wear armor. Proficiency in Con saves is none too shabby either.

    The healing thing is a big issue though, that is true. I had hoped that taking the Herbalism kit would let you make healing potions, but it's up to the DM as to what is needed to make one (other than 100g and 4 days). I mean, Java can sleep if needed, but it sort of resets everything and isn't what you want to do every day.
    I said this above in an edit, but the other big problem is you're going by Air Bud rules, where just because something isn't specifically forbidden means that thing is allowed. Most things don't work like that, and that makes the trick barely RAW at all. By that logic, a wizard can eat his spellbook and puke it up every night to read it without penalty (because there's no rules for the PCs digestive system in the game).


    Also by that logic, nothing is said about you losing spell slots when you finish a rest, only that you regain spent slots (or just regain slots in general). Which means it wouldn't reset on a long rest. You'd just keep gaining more and more spell slots depending on how many you used in the day. (A normal sorcerer would be able to do this as well to a lesser extent)

    And casters are generally pretty vulnerable to getting smacked around. In comparison to a more tanky class anyways.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post


    That works (well not the favored soul part. They don't exist.) Though Cleric gives you medium armor, not heavy. But point taken. It does slow you down a level, but for nigh unlimited healing it's worth it.

    Favored Soul was given example rules in a recent article. As for the Cleric, you get heavy armor from the domain, not the class.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Been editing my previous post, and now I need to resay stuff.
    I said this above in an edit, but the other big problem is you're going by Air Bud rules, where just because something isn't specifically forbidden means that thing is allowed. Most things don't work like that, and that makes the trick barely RAW at all.
    In some ways, yes. I always interpreted "regain" to mean that any spell slots expended were returned, up to the maximum shown in the table. But yes, that part is open to interpretation as to what exactly they mean. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not RAW though. The flexible casting entry is very clear that by spending X sorcery points you gain a spell slot of level Y. That part, at least, is 100% RAW. Considering how clear the text was that you're not allowed more than your maximum amount of sorcery points I think that my interpretation isn't entirely unfounded.

    Also by that logic, nothing is said about you losing spell slots when you finish a rest, only that you regain spent slots (or just regain slots in general). Which means it wouldn't reset on a long rest. You'd just keep gaining more and more spell slots depending on how many you used in the day. (A normal sorcerer would be able to do this as well to a lesser extent)
    The "losing spell slots thing" is how I read it. I just feel like a long rest is a reset while a short rest is a recharge. That part of the build came out more flavorful than anything else. I suppose a normal sorcerer could do this, especially with their capstone.

    And casters are generally pretty vulnerable to getting smacked around. In comparison to a more tanky class anyways.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarab112 View Post
    Magic Initiate says that you learn the spell as well, which means you can cast it with your normal spell slots.
    Oh, that's handy! Better than the healer feat, that's for sure. Healing word for everyone!
    Last edited by XmonkTad; 2015-04-15 at 12:19 AM.

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Oh, that's handy! Better than the healer feat, that's for sure. Healing word for everyone!
    It doesn't work - the spell explicitly states that "Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again." so even if you were allowing it to use spell slots, you could still only do it the once.

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    In some ways, yes. I always interpreted "regain" to mean that any spell slots expended were returned, up to the maximum shown in the table. But yes, that part is open to interpretation as to what exactly they mean. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not RAW though. The flexible casting entry is very clear that by spending X sorcery points you gain a spell slot of level Y. That part, at least, is 100% RAW. Considering how clear the text was that you're not allowed more than your maximum amount of sorcery points I think that my interpretation isn't entirely unfounded.



    The "losing spell slots thing" is how I read it. I just feel like a long rest is a reset while a short rest is a recharge. That part of the build came out more flavorful than anything else. I suppose a normal sorcerer could do this, especially with their capstone.

    Is there any doubt what they intended? I don't entirely understand how the sentence that you can never have more then your max sorcery points leads to you having more then your max spell slots as valid though. It seems to be exactly why that interpretation is not valid. And yeah, it's not explicitly forbidden by the rules. But like I said in another thread, it certainly invalidates RACS and RAI, and that's what your DM is most likely going to be working on.


    Like I said, it doesn't explicitly say it's a reset, just that you regain expended spell slots. Which is the exact same logic you are using to justify having additional spell slots in the first place.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarab112 View Post
    Magic Initiate says that you learn the spell as well, which means you can cast it with your normal spell slots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    It doesn't work - the spell explicitly states that "Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again." so even if you were allowing it to use spell slots, you could still only do it the once.


    Well one of you is correct.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Is there any doubt what they intended? I don't entirely understand how the sentence that you can never have more then your max sorcery points leads to you having more then your max spell slots as valid though. It seems to be exactly why that interpretation is not valid. And yeah, it's not explicitly forbidden by the rules. But like I said in another thread, it certainly invalidates RACS and RAI, and that's what your DM is most likely going to be working on.


    Like I said, it doesn't explicitly say it's a reset, just that you regain expended spell slots. Which is the exact same logic you are using to justify having additional spell slots in the first place.
    Oh I certainly don't know what they intended . Do Drow drink coffee?
    The reason I feel like "not explicitly forbidden" in this case is closer to "yes you can do that" is because in a very similar situation (the sorcery points) they explicitly called out that you may not do it. If the spell-slot situation was also forbidden, then a similar line of text would have declared it such.
    Either way, you're right: it's total Air Bud until your DM rules on it.

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Oh I certainly don't know what they intended . Do Drow drink coffee?
    The reason I feel like "not explicitly forbidden" in this case is closer to "yes you can do that" is because in a very similar situation (the sorcery points) they explicitly called out that you may not do it. If the spell-slot situation was also forbidden, then a similar line of text would have declared it such.
    Either way, you're right: it's total Air Bud until your DM rules on it.
    See, I figure it's more a situation of not repeating themselves.


    Looks like Giant is right, I looked it up.

    Still I don't think Java is actually that overpowered if there isn't really a healer to help her out, or a minor one anyways (and she doesn't get access to Cure Wounds somehow). I'd be curious to see how she'd hold up in a game without one. The other 'real game' factor is long term attrition and lack of down time. I mean, I know in my games, the spellcasters rarely go to sleep with all that many spells (and by extension Sorcery Points) left.

    @Scarab; sorry your post got skipped by my computer. Sure, domain works. But I would hardly consider an example they use as a legitimate variant. I mean, examples tend to be slapdash by their nature, cause they are just showing how they would create a variant, without looking to actual balance and the like.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Sneak some paladin in there for unlimited smites.

    Like on literally every single attack.

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    Devil

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    I just imagine Java wobbling around after a few days, bloodshot eyes, trying to cast spells. Try explaining that to the city guard.

    So cheesy.
    Last edited by Ardantis; 2015-04-15 at 07:47 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Yup this idea is RAW. It's not even an "air bud" scenario as people are describing it.
    You spend sorcery points to get spell slots. Those spell slots do not have an expiration date just like regular spell slots.

    If you take a short rest while you have unused regular spell slots do they disappear? Nope. This is regular rules behavior.
    Last edited by dev6500; 2015-04-15 at 08:19 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    well, i'd agree that this is regular rules behaviour in the sense that this is what the rules say. if you try and pull this kind of stunt in an average game, i rather suspect the DM will disapprove quite strongly, though.

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by dev6500 View Post
    Yup this idea is RAW. It's not even an "air bud" scenario as people are describing it.
    You spend sorcery points to get spell slots. Those spell slots do not have an expiration date just like regular spell slots.

    If you take a short rest while you have unused regular spell slots do they disappear? Nope. This is regular rules behavior.
    That's not the problem, it's can you have more spell slots then is stated on the Sorcerer/Warlock class table? And if so, does it keep stacking to an infinite amount?

    Also, can you regain spell slots used on a short rest, or do you regain enough spell slots to be restored to the max number given on the table?
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's not the problem, it's can you have more spell slots then is stated on the Sorcerer/Warlock class table? And if so, does it keep stacking to an infinite amount?

    Also, can you regain spell slots used on a short rest, or do you regain enough spell slots to be restored to the max number given on the table?
    All that stuff you brought up would be adding rules that don't exist. If one interpretation requires adding whole sentences of extra rules and another requires no additional sentences, then the latter is the RAW.

    Warlock spell slots are regained on a short rest. As long add you use them up they come back.
    Sorcery points may be turned into spell slots. No expiration our max number of slots listed. This idea of max spell slots our slot expiration is only brought up because some may see this as a balance issue. Perceived balance issues are a reason for an errata rule change or a dm rule change... not for reading raw.

    It's raw and a little roundabout and depending on the game scenario possibly strong. Though you delay your spell level progression to do it so it may not be worth it. Would need to see it in play first.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Sneak some paladin in there for unlimited smites.

    Like on literally every single attack.
    It would work great, if you're in darkness or not a Drow. Disadvantage on attack rolls in sunlight is a steep price to pay for this build, but it's what works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardantis View Post
    I just imagine Java wobbling around after a few days, bloodshot eyes, trying to cast spells. Try explaining that to the city guard.
    Technically no elf sleeps (and Drow are elves in 5th). And what Drow doesn't have to explain themselves to the city guard? Deception is definitely going to need to be a proficient skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by dev6500 View Post
    It's raw and a little roundabout and depending on the game scenario possibly strong. Though you delay your spell level progression to do it so it may not be worth it. Would need to see it in play first.
    This is also my interpretation. I'm also not sure this actually reaches broken levels of play. Delayed spell progression hurts any build, and even NI low level spells can't make up for that. The optimal situation for Java would probably be one where there are just tons and tons of low level mooks requiring tons and tons of AoE to deal with them. Java can keep dropping burning hands and fireballs all day long, but never gets more disintegrate than that single classed evoker.
    If Java hits warlock 3 and gets pact of the tome and book of ancient secrets invocation, then that would open up a lot of utility, but Java is a consistent, AoE blaster through and through.

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    I'd allow this as a DM as long as the player was willing to eat progressively harder Constitution Saves vs Exhaustion. Even if you don't physically need the sleep, mentally holding all of that spell potential has got to take some kind of toll. A lot would also depend on the play themselves. If they really just want an insomniac who spams low level spells (while their allies get progressively better spells/abilities), I have no problem with that. But if they're using this as an end run around the rules to try and break my game, they will soon be introduced to some improbably precise and deadly falling rocks.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Is there a reason I'm not seeing for why this is drow-specific? All elves trance, right?

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Java Do'Urden would still need to trance for 4 hours every day, or else any activity on subsequent days would count as a forced march, and (s)he'd have to start making Con saves vs Exhaustion. And any DM worth their salt would rule that his/her spell slots and sorcery points can't exceed their maximums; infinite spell slots is dumb.
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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Madfellow View Post
    Java Do'Urden would still need to trance for 4 hours every day, or else any activity on subsequent days would count as a forced march, and (s)he'd have to start making Con saves vs Exhaustion. And any DM worth their salt would rule that his/her spell slots and sorcery points can't exceed their maximums; infinite spell slots is dumb.
    So if I'm a level 2 Sorcerer, whose only use for my 2 sorcery points is to convert them into a single level 1 spell slot, you wouldn't let me do it until I cast a spell?

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    I think the only reason for using drow is that they get a Cha bonus, which is handy on a sorc/warlock.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I'd allow this as a DM as long as the player was willing to eat progressively harder Constitution Saves vs Exhaustion. Even if you don't physically need the sleep, mentally holding all of that spell potential has got to take some kind of toll. A lot would also depend on the play themselves. If they really just want an insomniac who spams low level spells (while their allies get progressively better spells/abilities), I have no problem with that.
    I feel that those houserules would be a little harsh. I would argue that trance helps restore mental fatigue as well and that it's thanks to nightly trances that Java is able to hold this amount of magical potential. And a low level spell spammer will either contribute next to nothing or run circles around the rest of the party depending on the challenges that you, as the DM, would present to them.

    But if they're using this as an end run around the rules to try and break my game, they will soon be introduced to some improbably precise and deadly falling rocks.
    It's not running around the rules! It's exactly how the rules are written .

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