OOTS #980 - The Discussion Thread

[MReav]

I never counted Miko as evil. The most wretchedly arrogant, misguided, self-righteous paladin ever, but not evil. Chaotic Neutral self-deceived into thinking she was Lawful Good.

I never claimed that she was evil, but she was functionally a "bad guy" from the perspective of the protagonists, and was undoubtedly an antagonist by the definition of the word.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Thanks Giant! This was the perfect start to my Friday morning :-D

I wonder if this makes Crystal the new head of the guild...

Hank's presumably the new head, although whether he actually takes that role outright or puts someone else in place as a proxy and acts through them is another matter.

[McNum]

Ouch. I don't think she likes him very much.

Good for Crystal. Can't say Bozzok didn't deserve that, because he totally did. I hope he stays down. I wonder what Crystal will do next after she's done making mashed Bozzok.

[eilandesq]

*pop up message over Bozzok's corpse*

"You have just received the "You Thought You Were So Clever" Achievement! Posthumously."

Spoiler

Show

If Crystal comes out spoiling for a renewed fight with Haley, I suspect Roy will show up and turn her into deanimated hash with his starmetal sword, which will cut through adamantine DR and be immune to the weapon breaking trick.

[Spoomeister]

We don't know that. Crystal is still alive, it's possible this goes on for another 25 episodes.

Also, I will make a wager of 10 quatloos that Rich Burlew is a better story teller than you are or are capable of becoming. If you think his plot digressions are pointless, the door is thataway -------========>>>.

I'm not a fan of simply saying "if you don't like it, write your own" or "if you don't like it, leave" whenever someone else is the slightest bit critical of something.

That said, BenjCano's annoyance is unoriginal, and not tactfully phrased, but is very understandable. Any personal preferences he has on the parts of OOTS he likes aside, I think much of it gets magnified by getting the story one series of panels at a time, periodically, instead of as complete chapters or novels.

This latest bit with Haley takes only a few pages in a book, and wouldn't stand out as a massive digression or distraction when reading it in a compilation even if that part of the story doesn't grab ya. Further, if he only likes OOTS for the Xykon / Snarl storyline, there's some impatience there given that that isn't all that OOTS is about, and it hasn't been directly about that (apart from a bit of splodey in the desert) for the better part of a book and a half. If BenjCano is tired of this latest bit, I can only imagine his wailing and gnashing of teeth after an entire book that was primarily about Elan's daddy issues and metacommentary on storytelling.

When all is said and done, and Rich considers himself finished with OOTS as a whole, I think there's individual comics, character arcs and subplots which can be considered in a very different and positive light. It's like watching a TV show week to week, vs. binge-watching a season at a time. Or watching individual episodes of Classic Doctor Who, instead of watching it an entire story at a time on DVD. I think some people's perception of OOTS in general, and specific characters or subplots in particular, is very much skewed by that.

And I shouldn't even have to say this, but I know where I am, so: insert standard acknowledgement here that this is Rich's story and he can tell it any way he bloody well likes, about whatever he bloody well likes. None of what I'm saying here is implying that Rich is somehow wrong for what he's creating and how he's doing it.

[An Enemy Spy]

Well it looks like this pointless little plot cul-de-sac is over. Maybe now we can actually get on with the story.

Because we all know this isn't in any way important to the story, right? I swear, if some of the people on this forum were in charge of the story, the comic would be six pages long and essentially be,
BELKAR: Why are we in this dungeon?
ROY: To kill-
ELAN: (summons plot exposition and explains the premise)
(The party walks through the next door where Xykon is waiting. They fight for a few pages and Xykon is killed along with Redcloak and the phylactery is destroyed)
ROY: Alright. Quest over. Let's go home.

See? Isn't that much better than the long rambling story full of useless subplots and pesky character development we've gotten?

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not a fan of simply saying "if you don't like it, write your own" or "if you don't like it, leave" whenever someone else is the slightest bit critical of something.

That said, BenjCano's annoyance is unoriginal, and not tactfully phrased, but is very understandable. Any personal preferences he has on the parts of OOTS he likes aside, I think much of it gets magnified by getting the story one series of panels at a time, periodically, instead of as complete chapters or novels.

This latest bit with Haley takes only a few pages in a book, and wouldn't stand out as a massive digression or distraction when reading it in a compilation even if that part of the story doesn't grab ya. Further, if he only likes OOTS for the Xykon / Snarl storyline, there's some impatience there given that that isn't all that OOTS is about, and it hasn't been directly about that (apart from a bit of splodey in the desert) for the better part of a book and a half. If BenjCano is tired of this latest bit, I can only imagine his wailing and gnashing of teeth after an entire book that was primarily about Elan's daddy issues and metacommentary on storytelling.

When all is said and done, and Rich considers himself finished with OOTS as a whole, I think there's individual comics, character arcs and subplots which can be considered in a very different and positive light. It's like watching a TV show week to week, vs. binge-watching a season at a time. Or watching individual episodes of Classic Doctor Who, instead of watching it an entire story at a time on DVD. I think some people's perception of OOTS in general, and specific characters or subplots in particular, is very much skewed by that.

And I shouldn't even have to say this, but I know where I am, so: insert standard acknowledgement here that this is Rich's story and he can tell it any way he bloody well likes, about whatever he bloody well likes. None of what I'm saying here is implying that Rich is somehow wrong for what he's creating and how he's doing it.

If he's said other things, and also that, I'd have reacted differently. Dropping in only to say "I'm glad this arc is over, I thought it was a waste of time" is a direct implication that you are better at pacing a story than the author. Which I think is unlikely.

[Mike Havran]

Also, while I don't think Bozzok would survive even with his sword, it's nicely ironic that it was him who taught Crystal the sundering move.

[BroomGuys]

On a smaller scale, this reminds me of familicide. I was rooting for Krystal to go ahead and kill Bozzok, particularly because I rather disliked Bozzok as a character, and then the last few panels made my jaw drop and my feelings change. It wasn't the happy and satisfying moment I expected--it was brutal, frightening, and sad.

[hamishspence]

On a smaller scale, this reminds me of familicide. I was rooting for Krystal to go ahead and kill Bozzok, particularly because I rather disliked Bozzok as a character, and then the last few panels made my jaw drop and my feelings change. It wasn't the happy and satisfying moment I expected--it was brutal, frightening, and sad.

It reminded me mostly of the Cleric of Loki and Old Blind Pete:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html

although it has its own vibe slightly distinct from either.

[Spoomeister]

Redcloak killed Tsukiko.
Nale killed Malack.
Tarquin killed Nale.
Crystal killed Bozzok.

I do believe the bad guys are more effective at stopping each other than our heroes ever were.

I'm not well-versed enough in search to go back and tally all the bad guys that the OOTS ever directly or indirectly stopped, but I think there's plenty of counterexamples here.

2 things, though:

1. The OOTS created the conditions for these bad guys to turn on each other. It's a bit of political judo. I think part of getting to higher level is picking your fights and getting others to do your dirty work for you, unless you're in an Epic Fantasy campaign where the PCs are supposed to essentially be superheroes who do it all directly.
2. I'd reserve judgment on this until we see what ultimately happens with Xykon. Secondary villains cancelling each other out and offing each other doesn't matter much if Our Heroes end up saving the day here. Heck, might not matter even if it's just OOTS watching Xykon get destroyed by his own hubris; see point 1. The main way that your point might ultimately end up as a pattern and problem in the story is if Xykon's ultimate end is a critical fail on a spell that somehow makes him trip and fall backwards through a Gate into the Snarl or something.

[Spoomeister]

If he's said other things, and also that, I'd have reacted differently. Dropping in only to say "I'm glad this arc is over, I thought it was a waste of time" is a direct implication that you are better at pacing a story than the author. Which I think is unlikely.

No, it is a direct statement that he doesn't like this part of the story. You are the one implying that he thinks he can do better. And his opinion isn't invalid simply because he isn't a forum regular, nor is it invalid simply because it's the only thing he had to say at that moment.

What is it about having an opinion about art that leads conversations down this particular garden path? At no time, when someone says e.g. on a car forum "I really don't like how the new Ford Focus looks" does someone counter with "well, if you don't like them, go build your own car".

People can dislike, disagree with or criticize art without having to be artists themselves.

[Keltest]

Wow. Yeah, ok. That was totally worth the real-time buildup. Do it again Crystal!

[iwarriorpoet]

Omgsogreatsogreat!!!omgsogreatsogreat!!!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well... DAMN!

Hell hath no fury.

[kivzirrum]

... Dang. So much for Bozzok, then. Raises a pretty big question--what happens to Crystal next?

[Bisqwit]

Now remember, that according to Bozzok, Crystal will never get tired or hungry, or forget what she's supposed to be doing, or get bored with what she's doing and decide to do something else.
Bozzok's corpse is going to be pulverised. Bystanders are not in trouble unless they interfere.

[DaOldeWolf]

I can only think of one word to say about this comic: Ouch.

[Mith]

First thoughts on the new comic (my appologies if it has already been mentioned): "Bozzock has changed monster type. He is now an Ooze."

[BenjCano]

We don't know that. Crystal is still alive, it's possible this goes on for another 25 episodes.

Also, I will make a wager of 10 quatloos that Rich Burlew is a better story teller than you are or are capable of becoming. If you think his plot digressions are pointless, the door is thataway -------========>>>.

Oh right...I forgot the requirement of fandom is to like all new content in that body of work, or that expressing dissatisfaction with any aspect of storytelling meant that you were unworthy to share the same Internet space at the 100% Real True Fans.

Get out of here with your ideological purity nonsense. I like the story of OotS, and I admit that Rich is a fine storyteller. Does that mean he's without flaws? No, and I'm sure he'd be the first to admit it. Is his work flawless? Again, no. Does pointing out that a particular issue or subplot is pointless disqualify me from being on this forum? I'll have to check the forum rules and guidelines, but we both know the answer is no.

See? Isn't that much better than the long rambling story full of useless subplots and pesky character development we've gotten?

But that's the rub, isn't it? This is a conflict that focuses on Haley's past and how she deals with the unresolved issues from her past with the thieve's guild. Which would be a good story to tell and a great way to showcase her character development if not for the fact that Haley already resolved this conflict with these exact same characters. She defeated her vindictive old boss, personally killed her nemesis, and the entire conflict with the rest of the thieve's guild was ended in a negotiated peace. There is literally no new ground being being explored with Bozzak and Crystal, Round 3.

If the story had just proceeded from the arrival in Gnome City to the plot events that are going to occur after this subplot, would the story have been diminished in any meaningful way? Would us jerks on the Internet be going, "Well Haley never really dealt with Bozzak and Crystal so that's a plot thread Rich never tied up."

[Breccia]

Oh, follow-up question: did Grubwiggler see Haley? She was standing right there in the newly-made doorway. We know Bozzok didn't see her, but did it factor into the "screw this, teleport" decision-making process?

[Thunder'sFall]

Now remember, that according to Bozzok, Crystal will never get tired or hungry, or forget what she's supposed to be doing, or get bored with what she's doing and decide to do something else.
Bozzok's corpse is going to be pulverised. Bystanders are not in trouble unless they interfere.

Well, she has to stop eventually. What happens afterwards?

Ok now that I'm done running through the halls yelling "Yes! First page!" some other things I saw, and liked, in this strip, that I'd like to see more of in general.

1) Evil not being monolithic

A classic, and needs to be more common. "Forget you, I'm outta here" is a completely realistic thing for an evil guy to say. We've seen it here before, when a certain imp familiar vanished just before a certain drow's neck snapped. Especially neutral evil. Unless they're bound by some fanatic cause, fleeing the area (the continent, in this case) rather than risk throwing your life away for money makes sense.

I'd like to see more movies, TV, etc. where villains in the same organization have the same behavior. Where Main Henchman says "Well, the hero shot my boss and like seven other guys. Yep, think I'm done here."

2) An broken weapon used effectively

Greenhilt's broken blade cutting three out of four nooses remains the prime example of this, but in this strip, we see Crystal throw her broken knife and injure Bozzok's shoulder. It's still magical, it's still sharp, and now jagged. A pound of magical, jagged metal should be capable of doing damage. If Crystal wasn't an enraged drug-using moron, I'd have wondered why she didn't use it to add weight to her superhuman punches, or bash Bozzok with the pommel. But her throwing it seems more in character, and again, worked fine.

3) A dump stat coming back to haunt you

It should be impossible to go through a D&D campaign where a stat penalty doesn't cause you issues. If you intentionally choose to give your wizard a 5 strength, fine, but at some point you're going to be hanging from the ledge of a spiked pit regretting your choice...briefly, followed by a squirting noise. If you try to run a criminal organization and/or a villainous Master Plan with a demonstrable Wisdom penalty, then you have no right to be surprised when it punches your spine out. That's why Bitterleaf isn't the group leader. Well...that, and other reasons.

4) Someone loses a fight to a "hard counter"

Some fights are unwinnable. There, I said it. It is possible to find an obstacle, combat or otherwise, that your skills are just not up to the task. Heroes can rise up against great challenges, that's the point. But if an encounter is specifically designed to block all of your abilities, then at some point it's no longer a challenge. At some point, you just flat-out lose.

Belkar vs. Malack is a good example of this. The vampire cleric was stronger, faster, had more hit points, better healing ability, and Belkar didn't have any fire or holy attacks. Throw in the Wisdom save attack, and it's just not realistic for Belkar to win. And no, he didn't. The Crystal Meth golem is a hard counter to Bozzok. Without his sneak attacks working, capable armor, or an adamantine weapon (no, his sword was NOT adamantium, in 3rd Ed an adamantine two-handed sword isn't shattering from a dagger hit, I don't care what you say), any form of magic that would slow/un-haste Crystal, or any demonstrated ability to reason with her (the term "brat" is strong evidence, and that's not even in the Top Ten Reasons Bozzok Sucks at Talking list), he had nothing to work with. And, he lost.

One in a million shots don't always work. Sorry, Elan.

5) Fall of a bully

Bozzok wasn't Crystal's husband, of course, but the abusing partner relationship is pretty clearly demonstrated here. The abuse wasn't physical -- I think -- but it was still an abusive relationship. It's a personal thing, and I know the abused partner thing is pretty deep with psychological impact etc etc, things I may never truly understand. Perhaps it's because I don't understand it, is why I personally take great pleasure in seeing one of those abusive relationships end very, very poorly. I'm not defending, or feeling sorry for, Crystal -- I'm standing against Bozzok.

You got what you deserved, you really, really dead green bastard. Say hi to Nale.

I don't think he will. LE and NE get separate afterlives.

But yeah, sometimes I'm really grateful for villains like Bozzok. They're straightforward characters and it's easy to know how you feel about them. You can laugh at their jokes, be impressed by their achievements (apart from the collateral damage) and admire their skill in battle, but at the same time their motives, nature or attitude is so brazenly evil that it's very easy to root against them and hope they fail. In that regard Bozzok takes after Xykon and Nale, and I consider this a satisfying conclusion of his time in the story.

[Ninja Dragon]

Well Bozzok, I guess that's what happens when you make enemies out of everyone. Should have been more careful about not pissing other people off.

[Lethologica]

I'm not well-versed enough in search to go back and tally all the bad guys that the OOTS ever directly or indirectly stopped, but I think there's plenty of counterexamples here.

2 things, though:

1. The OOTS created the conditions for these bad guys to turn on each other. It's a bit of political judo. I think part of getting to higher level is picking your fights and getting others to do your dirty work for you, unless you're in an Epic Fantasy campaign where the PCs are supposed to essentially be superheroes who do it all directly.
2. I'd reserve judgment on this until we see what ultimately happens with Xykon. Secondary villains cancelling each other out and offing each other doesn't matter much if Our Heroes end up saving the day here. Heck, might not matter even if it's just OOTS watching Xykon get destroyed by his own hubris; see point 1. The main way that your point might ultimately end up as a pattern and problem in the story is if Xykon's ultimate end is a critical fail on a spell that somehow makes him trip and fall backwards through a Gate into the Snarl or something.

Keep in mind, the Redcloak-Xykon partnership is due for implosion. Smart money's on both heroic action and villainous backstabbing playing roles in the finale.

But that's the rub, isn't it? This is a conflict that focuses on Haley's past and how she deals with the unresolved issues from her past with the thieve's guild. Which would be a good story to tell and a great way to showcase her character development if not for the fact that Haley already resolved this conflict with these exact same characters. She defeated her vindictive old boss, personally killed her nemesis, and the entire conflict with the rest of the thieve's guild was ended in a negotiated peace. There is literally no new ground being being explored with Bozzak and Crystal, Round 3.

If the story had just proceeded from the arrival in Gnome City to the plot events that are going to occur after this subplot, would the story have been diminished in any meaningful way? Would us jerks on the Internet be going, "Well Haley never really dealt with Bozzak and Crystal so that's a plot thread Rich never tied up."

Considering that Rich wrapped up the Greysky City arc by giving Bozzok and Crystal reasons to come after Haley, the answer to the second question is definitely "yes".

Also, "literally no new ground?" When was the last time Haley was wise/empathetic enough to talk an opponent down--and with the truth, no less? The same players are engaging in conflict here, but the conflict and resolution themselves are completely different.

[Grey Watcher]

Grubwiggler really was here for exposition then!

I find it quite stupid to teleport without being sure that Crystal kills Bozzok and without preventing him from being raised...

Who the heck would want to raise Bozzok? Crystal was the closest thing he had to a friend, and we can see how that turned out. All the other thieves would much rather he stay dead and take his job. (Plus, there isn't much of guild left, since he blew the resurrection money on turning Crystal into a much more literal killing machine.)

Gotta admit, Grubby got a good put down on his way out though.

When Crystal's done, they're gonna need a jar, not a body bag for Bozzok's remains.

Now the question is, what will Crystal do once she's reduced Bozzok's body to a paste: go after Haley (since if Haley hadn't killed her, she wouldn't have been golemized) or go after Grubwiggler (since he's the one who did the actual process)?

[Windscion]

Plus I think we've established there are not many clerics capable of raising someone, at least not in Gnome City.

Not so, actually. We have established a lack of casters able to cast Resurrection, a 9th level divine spell. But Raise Dead would suffice here, a fifth level spell. (Darkon requires a full rez because of the vampire thing. Hence its bluff is unlikely to be called.)

The real issue is that no one has any motive to raise him.

What happens to Crystal is more interesting, and less clear. Normal ropes/nets won't hold her, and killing her is difficult.

[Shining Wrath]

First thoughts on the new comic (my appologies if it has already been mentioned): "Bozzock has changed monster type. He is now an Ooze."

I suggested guacamole ...

[Mike Havran]

If the story had just proceeded from the arrival in Gnome City to the plot events that are going to occur after this subplot, would the story have been diminished in any meaningful way?

I suggest we wait after the subplot actually ends, which isn't right now.

Would us jerks on the Internet be going, "Well Haley never really dealt with Bozzak and Crystal so that's a plot thread Rich never tied up."

Oh yes.

I'm not well-versed enough in search to go back and tally all the bad guys that the OOTS ever directly or indirectly stopped, but I think there's plenty of counterexamples here.

I don't think so. They were mostly nothing more than random encounters, or the Order merely slowed their pace at doing evil stuff. Two notable examples are Kubota and Mama Dragon, both courtesy of mentally unhinged Vaarsuvius.

1. The OOTS created the conditions for these bad guys to turn on each other. It's a bit of political judo. I think part of getting to higher level is picking your fights and getting others to do your dirty work for you, unless you're in an Epic Fantasy campaign where the PCs are supposed to essentially be superheroes who do it all directly.

The first three had nothing to do with the Order at all. Case could be made for this last example, but even here it was basically Bozzok's own stupidity - insulting Crystal Golem when he should cajole her - that undid him.

It's as if the Order in their standard frame of mind is never meant to permanently kill anyone important. As if it would taint their image.

[Thunder'sFall]

Keep in mind, the Redcloak-Xykon partnership is due for implosion. Smart money's on both heroic action and villainous backstabbing playing roles in the finale.

Considering that Rich wrapped up the Greysky City arc by giving Bozzok and Crystal reasons to come after Haley, the answer to the second question is definitely "yes".

Also, "literally no new ground?" When was the last time Haley was wise/empathetic enough to talk an opponent down? The same players are engaging in conflict here, but the conflict and resolution themselves are completely different.

Ayup. It'll really be a question of which villain is in the position to tag the other one first. Xykon's an epic level sorceror with greater raw power, not just in terms of magic but also in terms of his raw strength and the phylactery that prevents him from ever dying, but Redcloak is the more clever tactician and has access to summon spells, maybe a few divine spells that hurt the undead (turn undead won't do him much good) so I guess it might be a toss-up, as Tarquin put it.

And yeah, it's more a moment of growth for Haley than a resolution of the story arc between her and the villains. Think of this as the bluff montage from BRiTF but with diplomacy, and more tear-jerking.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh right...I forgot the requirement of fandom is to like all new content in that body of work, or that expressing dissatisfaction with any aspect of storytelling meant that you were unworthy to share the same Internet space at the 100% Real True Fans.

Get out of here with your ideological purity nonsense. I like the story of OotS, and I admit that Rich is a fine storyteller. Does that mean he's without flaws? No, and I'm sure he'd be the first to admit it. Is his work flawless? Again, no. Does pointing out that a particular issue or subplot is pointless disqualify me from being on this forum? I'll have to check the forum rules and guidelines, but we both know the answer is no.



But that's the rub, isn't it? This is a conflict that focuses on Haley's past and how she deals with the unresolved issues from her past with the thieve's guild. Which would be a good story to tell and a great way to showcase her character development if not for the fact that Haley already resolved this conflict with these exact same characters. She defeated her vindictive old boss, personally killed her nemesis, and the entire conflict with the rest of the thieve's guild was ended in a negotiated peace. There is literally no new ground being being explored with Bozzak and Crystal, Round 3.

If the story had just proceeded from the arrival in Gnome City to the plot events that are going to occur after this subplot, would the story have been diminished in any meaningful way? Would us jerks on the Internet be going, "Well Haley never really dealt with Bozzak and Crystal so that's a plot thread Rich never tied up."

I apologize. Shouldn't have shown you the metaphorical door.