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    Default The Redeemery: How to reliably turn evil to good on a large scale

    The Redeemery: How to reliably turn evil to good on a large scale

    Disclaimer: This guide relies on rules on morality from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This book considers a Necromancy spell that rips out a creatures soul, traps it in an object for a full year and magically forces it to change in alignment to be of the highest moral standard. Your milage may vary.

    Introduction

    Killing evil is relatively easy. It's the bread and butter of good adventurers and the focal point of the Good/Evil alignment war in the planes. However, as honored as the traditions of slaying Evil dragons and banishing Fiends to the depths from whence they came is, it is not necessarily without its flaws. Killing the evil necromancer only sends his soul to the lower-planes, where he'll either become food, fuel or a weapon for the cosmic forces of evil. And in killing their enemy, the righteous risk becoming what they set out to destroy.

    Redeeming evil, on the other hand, is hard. Not every creature can be saved. Most don't want to be saved, or are even aware that they need saving. However, by bringing an evil creature to the side of good, you are destroying evil, creating good, and helping an other at the very same that. Some call it the greatest act of good one could ever hope to accomplish (BoED p. 8).

    This guide is all about how to take that greatest act of good and turn it into a ruthlessly-efficient machine on a potentially exponential scale. A finely-tuned assembly-line factory of Good. The Redeemery.



    Rules of Redemption & Alignment

    Changing alignment is a gradual semi-voluntary process that involves a delicate interplay of action and thought. Every act and thought has at least one alignment component associated with it. Some obviously have a stronger associations than others, with many acts being always evil (e.g. destroying a soul, BoVD p. 8) and a rare few acts arguably always being good (e.g. destroying a Fiend, BoVD p. 8). In most cases, however, the intent with which an act was committed plays a significant role. Killing a man to save an innocent is good, while killing the same man for pleasure is evil.

    Obviously, there are grey areas. A Paladin killing a most evil cleric is good in itself, but if he does so by breaking into her inn-room and night, smothers her while sleeping and then takes her money to celebrate in grand lavish style, then the picture changes a bit. The DM at any given table is the final arbiter of what the cosmic forces do and do not consider Good/Evil.

    There are differences in how all this works depending on the way in which the alignment change is headed. The most significant difference is in how much the act itself and the reason behind it matter in any given instance. For example, as per the Pact Primeval between Asmodeus and the old Lawful deities, one will be condemned to the lower planes if one committed a certain amount of corrupt acts (e.g. torture), utterly regardless of intention. Evil actions = evil alignment/afterlife.

    To go from evil to good, however, takes more than simply committing good acts. The Pact Primeval stipulates that sin outweighs good action (FCII p. 30). If you commit two cold-blooded murders, simply saving 2.000.000 orphans will not redeem you. Becoming/being good greatly hinges on the right good intentions. An evil creature must be repentant to become good, see the wrong it has done and strive to right it. Depending on how evil it is, it may even need divine aid (i.e. atonement spell). Proper intention is absolute key.

    Which bring us to redemption. The Book of Exalted deeds details the mundane process for redeeming creatures on page 8. The "To Be Redeemed" creature (TBR, for the rest of this guide) needs to be treated exceptionally well (including kindness, understanding and the willingness to forgive) and be engaged in a redemption-talk for at least one hour every day for a minimum of 2 weeks. This talk consists of the redeemer talking about good/evil with the goal of getting the TBR to open up and talk about his past evil deeds, reasons for them and so forth with the goal of showing the TBR the error of his ways. At the end of each day, the redeemer makes a diplomacy check and the TBR makes a will save to which it adds its HD against the diplomacy result. After 7 consecutive failed saves, alignment switches to Neutral; another 7 consecutive fails switch it to good. Note that the daily hour of redemption talk need not occur on a 1 on 1 basis, meaning it is possible to redeem several evil creatures at the same time.

    While not the focus of this guide, it bears mention that there are other methods for redemption. The Emissary of Barachiel PrC (BoED) and Silverhair Knight PrC (Drag315 30) both grant abilties that can force a genuine alignment change, albeit with considerable stipulations. Other options include the Helm of Opposite Alignment and the Mindrape spell, but those are magical compulsions which can be cured/countered, as opposed to genuine changes.

    The Redeemery in Concept

    The Redeemery was conceived in this thread of mine. As per the introduction, it is essentially a Good-ness factory. By combining the BoED rules for redemption with certain spells, items and a few other rules from here and there; it creates a stable environment that takes redeemable evil creatures in and reliably turns them into good creatures on a large scale.

    The Redeemery's core mechanism (or central cog, if you will) in this to magically take away a TBR's ability to mentally resist the mundane redemption process. In mechanical terms, the TBR is charmed into forgoing its saving throw(s) against redemption, in fluff terms, the TBR is magically made malleable to rehabilitation. Charm is used in place of compulsion because it doesn't technically rob the TBRs of their free will (Rules Compendium p. 28), which is arguably required for the genuine internalization of a Good-aligned disposition. This core mechanism is fine-tuned and supplemented with means to ensure safety, effective treatment, full-soul redemption, and low-to-nil recidivism. Creatures with the Evil Subtype are irredeemable (lest the subtype is somehow removed), and creatures inherently immune to mind-affecting effects or even just charms/compulsions must be redeemed in the old-fashioned diplomancing way, which may take much longer.

    Redeemery Prerequisites/Ingredients

    To establish a Redeemery, there are certain things that you absolutely need, some that you should have, and some that just really add something nice. Most of these things can be replaced with something functionally similar or be done without, as to suit setting/availability. To state the obvious, all of those working in the Redeemery must be of unquestionable good alignment, ideally exalted Neutral Good; although non-exalted Neutral Good and Lawful Good are tolerable to an extent.

    Spoiler: Essentials
    Show
    Access to an Charm X effect at will (e.g.: Dragonfire Adept 6, Half-Fey)
    1 Paladin (any level, fluff recommends high wisdom/int)
    1 Pendant of Redemption (Complete Champion p. 140)
    A secure facility that can safely contain, protect and house the TBRs


    Spoiler: Should have
    Show
    1 Babbling Wheel (Savage Species)
    High charisma score on Charm X user(s) (e.g.: Saint Magic-Blooded Feytouched)
    Legal right to operate Redeemery and good relations with local political powers
    Cleric able to cast Atonement/Quest
    Wise Redeemers able to cast/use Enthral frequently


    Spoiler: Nice to Have
    Show
    Custom Standard Activation magic item of Power Sight (MotW)
    A collection of Masterwork Poison Rings (Dragon Compendium) with Least Fiendslayer crystals attached (10 piece would be ideal)
    A reliable supply of Titan-gum (Dragon 301 p. 53) and Universal Solvent
    Access to the retraining option in PHB II
    Access to the Nymph's Kiss feat
    Circlet of Persuasion
    Veil of Allure (MIC)
    Ring of X-Ray Vision
    Cha-boosting items
    Admiral's Bicorne (Stormwrack)
    Some seriously powerful guards and a seriously fortified facility to redeem in


    The Redeemery Protocol

    Recruit the necessary staff of Redeemers and gather the necessary items. Find a suitable facility and fortify/provision it as needed. The ideal Redeemery should be impervious to escape, intrusion and infiltration by anything short of a greater deity. Establish working relations with churches and states in the vicinity. Advertise your redeeming services. Once all that is done, you can get to actually redeeming the folks that get dropped in.

    Step 1: Inspection

    Ensure that all To Be Redeemeds (TBRs) are free of spells or items and are indeed redeemable. [Should a TBR possess the Evil subtype, then he can not be redeemed unless the Redeemery has access to the Ritual of Alignment from Savage Species]. Frequent Detects and Dispels advised, plus high search and sense motives recommended. A Ring of X-Ray vision, if available, is used to make sure there are no hidden surprises. If available, the custom Power Sight item is used to determine HD, in order to estimate threat level of TBR.

    Step 2: Assessment

    TBR is brought before the Paladin who has the Pendant of Redemption. Via Detect Evil the Pendant tells him what the TBR must do to find redemption in the eyes of his NG Deity. All gathered information is placed into a file and the TBR is taken to his confinement area cell, which should be a comfortable cell with a meal waiting (extraordinary treatment, attitude permitting).

    Step 3: Charm

    The charm X user comes to visit the TBR and uses charm X. Should the TBR succeed his saving through and be suspicious at the "tingle or hostile force", the Charmer uses whatever excuse he prepared to explain it away (e.g. fake detect disease wand). Eventually, the Charm X will succeed. As a piece of good advice, the charmer instructs the TBR to forgo all mental resistance in the presense of the Redeemery staff (read: choose to fail all your will-saves). Should this be something the TBR wouldn't ordinarily do for a trusted friend and ally, an opposed charisma check ensues. Should the TBR win, the charmer ends the charm effect in some manner (e.g. attack non-lethally) and re-applies it so that he can try again.

    Step 4: The Talk

    After the Charmer succeeds, and while charm person is still active for at least one more hour, any Redeemer who's available and read the TBR's file begins the hour long redemption talk from BoED. Depending on their profiles, TBRs may instead be gathered in one location (all within 30 ft of the redeemer) and be given the talk together, in which case it may be advisable for the Redeemer to use Enthral in order to ensure that all TBRs listen to his words first, and then provide their views and replies afterwards in a sort of group-therapy setting. Talking stick optional. In either scenario, the TBR(s) will fail his saving throw thanks to the Charmer.

    Step 5: The Hypnotism

    A Redeemer with a Babbling Wheel (against which the Redeemer made his save earlier in the day) visits the TBR(s) while charm person is still in effect. The Babbling Wheel is spun and the TBR(s) chooses to fail his save due to step 3, subjecting him to the effects of a Hypnotism spell for 2d4 rounds, regardless of his HD. During the 2d4 rounds, the Hypnotist tells the TBR to "seriously and deeply consider the benefits of being good in contrast to the downfalls of being evil". The TBR will do so for 2d4 rounds and then retain at least an indifferent attitude towards this request at this point. The important thing is to make the request something related to how the TBR thinks/considers moral issues (i.e. CBT).

    Step 6: Rounds

    Steps 3-5 are repeated daily until the TBR's alignment detects as good, which should take 2 weeks as per redemption rules. Every 2 days, the TBR's attitude towards a request made via Hypnotism in step 5 will be permanently set to Helpful (e.g. henceforth always considers the benefit of Good actions when making decisions), so the Hypnotism request can be changed at these points to further reduce the chances of recidivism, ideally by customizing the requests in a way that directly counters the TBRs evil tendencies (e.g. have a murder constantly helpful towards considering how precious life is).

    Step 7: Salvation (Optional)

    Should the TBR be an evil cleric and/or have a corruption rating (FCII) of 4 or higher, he will receive a quest/geas and/or atonement spell as to allow him to switch deities and no-longer be condemned to the lower planes. Even if atonement/quest isn't required, the TBR is sent to venture forth to right his past wrongs as the Pendant of Redemption indicated in step 1, thus completing his redemption.

    Step 8: Wrap-Up

    The Redeemed is given the choice to either stay and help the redeeming effort or be relocated to a Good-alignment friendly environment, where he'll have the opportunity to start a new life. Thanks to the permanent effect of 7 different Hypnotisms, he will be bound to walk the path of good forever unless faced with exceptional circumstances (e.g. alignment-changing magic, moral catch-22s).

    Notes

    A good way to ensure a steady income of TBRs is to have arrangements with nearby Kingdoms, who'll likely be glad to no longer need to finance prisons. Depending on how many Redeemers you have working to do the redemption talks and how many TRBs you're willing to have in a room for the a redemption talk, there is little limit to how many Redeemed to can produce per day after the initial warm-up period. BoED also makes the suggestion that DMs should award CR-appropriate EXP for redeeming, so a Redeemery can double as an Exp factory in this case.

    Everyone you redeem will be friendly towards you. There is a chance they'll stay and add to your redeeming-force, but even otherwise you will make an increasing number of friends, which is useful. One you have proven your Redeemery works, you can start asking for donations like a church, or even negotiate financing with any states whom you're helping.

    As your success grows, the need for a secure facility does also. Demons and Devils WILL try to rain on your parade and turn your Redeemery into a soul-harvesting ground. Be seriously prepared. Hopefully, you'll have upper-plane assistance at this point.

    Meet Jeff, the quintessential Redeemer

    Jeff is a Dragonfire Adept 8, Paladin 1. He has the Magic-Blooded "Spark" template, plenty of charisma and cha-check boosting items, has the Nymph's Kiss feat and is just generally geared for high-Cha. If possible, he'll also have the Saint Template. His Invocations are Endure Exposure, Magic Insight, Voracious Dispelling and Charm. His main possessions are a Pendant of Redemption and a Babbling Wheel.

    Jeff can theoretically run a decent (if not ideal) Redeemery by himself. He combines Endure Exposure, Magic Insight and Voracious Dispelling to ensure that all TBR come in free of magical surprises. Via his Paladin Level and the Pendant, he assesses the redeem-ableness of the TBRs. He plays the role of charmer, having charm monster at will and a highly optimized charisma score to ensure they fail their redemption-talk-save. The quest/atonement parts of the protocol, he is sadly forced to out-source; but he is more than able to achieve basic redemption with any redeemable evil creature within 2 weeks. If given a ring of sustenance and able to do redemption talks in bulk, he can easily redeem over 100 creatures every 2 weeks

    Envisioning the Perfect Redeemery

    The Redeeming Sun is a massive stronghold (as per stronghold builders guide) the size of a metropolis. This stronghold has the ability to fly at Incredible speed (240 miles per day), and can Teleport without error several times per day (if need be). There is a constantly active Weirdstone somewhere within it's confines, which prevents scry-type targeting and dimensional travel entry in a 6 mile radius. Thanks to many Baskets of Delight and other perpetual food/water items, the Redeeming sun is completely self-sufficient even at full capacity. The Redeeming Sun features countless shrines to Pelor, so that even if a deity were to choose and intervene here on the material plane, Pelor could notice this via his Remote Sensing ability and thus intervene in turn (i.e. Divine fair-play).

    As the Redeeming Sun is constantly moving at high speed, cannot be scryed upon and can not be reached via extra-dimensional travel, it is notoriously difficult to get to. One does not find the Redeeming Sun, the redeeming sun finds you. Through the use of several Crystal Balls (with telepathy and true seeing, of course), it monitors not only its surrounding airspace but also a select number of pick-up locations (usually fortified Pelorian temples) to which its field agents bring those who are to be redeemed. These locations contain keyed portals, which all connect to a singular moving portal which is located on a flying vessel that is usually docked on the Redeeming Sun. If there are to be new arrivals, this vessel takes off and just exits the weirdstone's field, thus activating the moving portal and allowing the new arrivals. None of the new arrivals are permitted to be conscious (in special cases, drain Wis to 0 with Jade Water, BoED p. 35), and the portal-vessel re-enters weirdstone territory immediately upon pick-up. Rigorous safety-protocols (e.g. confirm all new TBRs are redeemable/living/non-possessed creatures free of contigent spells, ongoing enchantments and anything hidden in their bodies) ensure that the vessel only docks once everything is cleared. Upon every docking, the Redeeming Sun teleports to avoid being tracked based on the vessel's exit from the Weirstone field.

    Fiends and other creatures with the Evil subtype are immediately taken to a special facility where they are subjected to the Ritual of Alignment by a good-domain-accessing cleric, for which they count as willing due to being unconscious. As the ritual has a chance of killing its target on a failed save, each subject is temporarily equipped with a selection of magic items to temporarily boost their will-save (i.e. Cloak of Resistance +5, Amulet of Good Fortune Grey elephant luck +4 [Dragon #322], Crystal Mask of Mind Armor Insight +4, Breastplate of Thrane Morale +2 [Forge of War]), and the ritual is conducted in the presence of a caster prepared to cast alter fortune in case of failure. In case of failure despite all this, the subject is also in contact with a Thinaun weapon during the ritual, so that it's soul can not escape in case of death. Only once the Evil Subtype has been successfully removed are these TBRs re-joined with the others and regular processing continues.

    The TBRs are assessed as per the normal Redeemery procedures, and are immediately fitted with the max number of Holy Poison rings with Fiendslayer-crystals attached using titan gum (or soverign glue, in case of real high Str types). In fluff, the number of crystal items symbolizes the weight of their sins. Being effectively reduced to level 1, Spellcasters loose the majority of their spells, burly types have considerable penalties to their combat ability, and all of them can be knocked unconscious with a single hit. Additional safety measures in case of particularly powerful enemies (e.g. Wizards not needing material, verbal or somatic components) are employed on a case by case basis. Once this has been done and they've been taken to their lavishly furnished holding cells, are they allowed to regain consciousness.

    Charm and Hypnotism Redeemery procedures are employed as per normal to permanently move the TBRs towards good. The Crystal Items are removed when neutral alignment is reached. Once good alignment is achieved, the geass/atonement procedures required for full redemption are employed, and the TBR is teleported to a suitable location. Once true redemption is achieved, the church of Pelor on the ground set the redeemed up with a new good purposeful life. Redeemed fiends may seek passage to the Outlands to work for the cause of good in one of the higher-plane bordering gate-towns.
    Last edited by Jowgen; 2017-04-14 at 11:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    "When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man". I'll just leave this here, while also quietly noting to myself how the endings to the book and the film were different.

    Jowgen, this is my favourite guide out of all of the ones I've read. Almost all of them are heavy on mechanics and optimization; this instead uses mechanics+fluff for a fluff+mechanics outcome.

    I have a few questions; hopefully they'll help to round out the guide.

    1 - what happens when the TBR resists?

    2 - what about foes with abilities to never fail on a 1, and who are immune to mind-affecting/compulsions?

    3 - I ought to read the BoED in full on this subject, for it probably answers this, but I'll include it anyway. What about creatures with alignment subtypes?

    4 - why not (ab)use the diplomacy rules to make some of the steps easier, like Charm Monster?

    5 - is there a way to come out even on the investment in this? (for a full caster attempting to implement this, it doesn't matter if they spend all their WBL; for a paladin, they're losing efficacy).

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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric View Post
    Jowgen, this is my favourite guide out of all of the ones I've read. Almost all of them are heavy on mechanics and optimization; this instead uses mechanics+fluff for a fluff+mechanics outcome.

    I have a few questions; hopefully they'll help to round out the guide.

    1 - what happens when the TBR resists?

    2 - what about foes with abilities to never fail on a 1, and who are immune to mind-affecting/compulsions?

    3 - I ought to read the BoED in full on this subject, for it probably answers this, but I'll include it anyway. What about creatures with alignment subtypes?

    4 - why not (ab)use the diplomacy rules to make some of the steps easier, like Charm Monster?

    5 - is there a way to come out even on the investment in this? (for a full caster attempting to implement this, it doesn't matter if they spend all their WBL; for a paladin, they're losing efficacy).
    Why thank you good sire, happy you like the guide, though it still in needs some tuning


    1 - The TBR has 3 opportunities to resist, a) fight when he's brought in, b) save charm is cast, c) charisma check against the non-resistance command given via charm. The guide assumes the TBRs are as restrained as need be to avoid a), and having charm X at will is a hard requirement so that there is always a next time in case b) or c) happen. After the charm anti-resistance command is given, it's effectively over for the TBR.

    2 - Having a TBR that has such immunity would be a rarity requiring the old-fashioned redemption approach. The charmers would not only have the high Cha they already require for their regular job, but also some ranks in diplomacy in order to have regular mundane redemption as a contingency. It might take several extra weeks, but with time it'll succeed, as redemption does not have the mind-affecting descriptor.

    3 - They're considered utterly unredeemable for mundane purposes. Heavy magic would be needed for those, if even that.

    4 - If you're referring to the combination of Charm Person with Hypnosis for permanent Fanatics, then I did leave it out on purpose to avoid plain-obvious broken-ness. Other than that, Hypnotism can take care of any and all attitude problems permanently, should there be need.

    5 - Depends on how intense you go. If you happen to have charm X as an at-will SLA from somewhere, and can buy yourself an Enveloping pit with some dungeon-furnishings, you've got a very poor-man's Redeemery right there with no noticeable draw-back to your character. If you have Leadership and a score of 25, you can attract Jeff in the form of 2 level 6 followers with all the Redeemery staff you could want as extra; while still having your cohort fully available.

    Thank you for your questions, they've given me some ideas on what I might want to add
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Redeemery is nearing completion. I have added a method to ensure Hypnotism can be used regardless of HD, which doubles as an added safety procedure. In brief, it uses the ability of Fiendslayer crystals to impose negative levels on evil creatures.

    I've also added a section that aims to envision the perfect (read: impractically expensive) Redeemery, which I've dubbed the Redeeming sun. It's little more than a pointless thought exercise, but I would be interested on how one might be able to improve it, if anyone has any ideas?
    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    This is glorious. I rarely play as a player, but when I do (and I'm not playing Kratos cosplayers or mentally-crippled half-orc barbarians) I always try to avoid killing opponents as often as possible because I think that it would make sense IC to avoid needlessly spilling the blood of the livings. This handbook gives my LN wizards ways to turn potential murder charges into loyal allies and I love it. Bookmarked.

    I have a small suggestion to lower the budget needed to establish a working Redeemery: 10 masterwork poison rings with fiendslayer crystals attached cost 13.450 gp, while 10 +1 holy poison rings with fiendslayer crystals attached cost 193.450 gp (if my calculations are correct). 20 +1 holy sling bullets cost 7.320 gp and 2 sp (each additional bullet costs only 366 gp and 1 cp). Since you can theoretically hold as many ammunition as you want in your hands, bestowing negative levels becomes relatively easy. Moreover, as we are using sling bullets instead of arrows, bolts or shurikens, it's easier to fluff them as "the weight of the TBR's sins".
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    This is glorious. I rarely play as a player, but when I do (and I'm not playing Kratos cosplayers or mentally-crippled half-orc barbarians) I always try to avoid killing opponents as often as possible because I think that it would make sense IC to avoid needlessly spilling the blood of the livings. This handbook gives my LN wizards ways to turn potential murder charges into loyal allies and I love it. Bookmarked.

    I have a small suggestion to lower the budget needed to establish a working Redeemery: 10 masterwork poison rings with fiendslayer crystals attached cost 13.450 gp, while 10 +1 holy poison rings with fiendslayer crystals attached cost 193.450 gp (if my calculations are correct). 20 +1 holy sling bullets cost 7.320 gp and 2 sp (each additional bullet costs only 366 gp and 1 cp). Since you can theoretically hold as many ammunition as you want in your hands, bestowing negative levels becomes relatively easy. Moreover, as we are using sling bullets instead of arrows, bolts or shurikens, it's easier to fluff them as "the weight of the TBR's sins".


    Also, thank you for the ammunition suggestion, I hadn't considered that. It does indeed work out cheaper, but comes with a bit of a practical problem. The rings work nicely because you can easily perma-attach them with glue for unwilling-wielding, but with ammunition of any variety I'm not sure how one could go about that...

    I believe the main-qualifier for ammunition (or any weapon) to count as "wielded" is that it needs to be ready for use. Focusing on the held-in-hand clause from holy might get around that in a somewhat cheesy way, but that still leaves the issue of how to securely attach a bunch of stone-pellet's to someone's hands...

    Maybe there's some kind of obscure type of amuntion or ammuntion-using-device out there that could lend itself to this? *goes of searching*
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    The TBRs are assessed as per the normal Redeemery procedures, and are immediately fitted with the appropriate number of Holy Fiendslayer-crystal poison rings using titan gum (or soverign glue, in case of real high Str types). In fluff, the number of rings symbolizes the weight of their sins. Being effectively reduced to level 1, spellcasters loose the majority of their spells, burly types have considerable penalties to their combat ability, and all of them can be knocked unconscious with a single hit. Additional safety measures in case of particularly powerful enemies (e.g. Wizards not needing material, verbal or somatic components) are employed. Only once this has been done and they've been taken to their lavishly furnished holding cells, are they allowed to regain consciousness.
    Excerpt chosen for relevance.

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    I can beat your redeemery, or at least prevent people from being redeemed. It would be a bit complicated; your foresight is really quite impressive.

    Sanctum Fell Drain Twin Nightmare targeted on each TBR. Given the number of shrines on the Redeeming Sun, I can only assume that it is entirely consecrated/hallowed, so you won't be overrun by wights. With a good spy network, I can potentially deny you several victories, one for every name I can obtain, since you were kind enough to nuke their will saves for me.

    Crafted Contingency Fell Drain Sonic Snap, twice, focus and spell buried inside of minion's body in lead lined box. Requires a lot of very small boxes. Bonus points if this method is also used to include a contingent Unhallow set to go off 1 day after the recipient dies,give or take four rounds. That will create wights, unless you drop the bodies, in which case I use the trail of bodies to track the Redeeming Sun. Or maybe you burn the bodies, either way I deny you a win.

    Crafted Contingency Rusting Grasp, all save 2HD worth. Hidden as above (oh the cancer I'll have!) Command phrase is 'You're monologuing'. Contingency for Modify Memory, in the event that I suffer my HD-2 negative levels, so that long lecture/discussions on the topic of good cause me to think of the aforementioned command phrase. And then the one that you're all expecting for when you come to capture me (Disjunction on the first fool, minimum 45ft away from me, to use the phrase, 'you/he won't get away this time').
    After assessment, I allow Jeff to begin lecturing, I am inclined to listen and fail my save against the redemption, I am not, however, disinclined to escape. Command phrase allows me to destroy your rings, as I am attending them, I choose to fail the save against Rusting Grasp, as many times as necessary. I then strangle Jeff with his own prayerbeads and serve him up with a chianti and fava beans for my favorite undead servant. I renovate the Redeeming Sun and use it to destroy as many churches of Pelor as possible, thus ridding the world of sunburn and rendering it safe for gingers everywhere.


    Actually a really good plan though. Love what you've done with it, really polished out a lot of the classic strategies and finessed out many of the difficulties. And the allusion in the name of the facility, just grand that. If I ever run an Evil campaign, I would love to borrow this as the premise for their adversary. Would you mind?
    Last edited by Seclora; 2015-05-02 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    I can beat your redeemery, or at least prevent people from being redeemed. It would be a bit complicated; your foresight is really quite impressive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    Sanctum Fell Drain Twin Nightmare targeted on each TBR. Given the number of shrines on the Redeeming Sun, I can only assume that it is entirely consecrated/hallowed, so you won't be overrun by wights. With a good spy network, I can potentially deny you several victories, one for every name I can obtain, since you were kind enough to nuke their will saves for me.
    Technically, they're only instructed to fail their saves against Redeemery staff, so a natural 20 could still happen, but yeah, the level-based amount of Negative levels on them kinda make that the only solution for them. Guess I should give the cell-stronghold spaces a magic circle against evil upgrade. I didn't consider long-range mind-affecting, so thank you for putting me onto that for the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    Crafted Contingency Fell Drain Sonic Snap, twice, focus and spell buried inside of minion's body in lead lined box. Requires a lot of very small boxes. Bonus points if this method is also used to include a contingent Unhallow set to go off 1 day after the recipient dies,give or take four rounds. That will create wights, unless you drop the bodies, in which case I use the trail of bodies to track the Redeeming Sun. Or maybe you burn the bodies, either way I deny you a win.

    Crafted Contingency Rusting Grasp, all save 2HD worth. Hidden as above (oh the cancer I'll have!) Command phrase is 'You're monologuing'. Contingency for Modify Memory, in the event that I suffer my HD-2 negative levels, so that long lecture/discussions on the topic of good cause me to think of the aforementioned command phrase. And then the one that you're all expecting for when you come to capture me (Disjunction on the first fool, minimum 45ft away from me, to use the phrase, 'you/he won't get away this time').
    After assessment, I allow Jeff to begin lecturing, I am inclined to listen and fail my save against the redemption, I am not, however, disinclined to escape. Command phrase allows me to destroy your rings, as I am attending them, I choose to fail the save against Rusting Grasp, as many times as necessary.


    *applauds* Impressively done. I did not count on led-implants to block the standard magic-detection proceedures. Guess the Redeeming Sun needs to invest in some kind of internal metal detector. How many small magnets (Dungeonscape) would it take to find a box of led? Alternatively, could a ring of x-ray vision at the vessel inspection stage handle this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    I then strangle Jeff with his own prayerbeads and serve him up with a chianti and fava beans for my favorite undead servant. I renovate the Redeeming Sun and use it to destroy as many churches of Pelor as possible, thus ridding the world of sunburn and rendering it safe for gingers everywhere.
    I was on board until the gingers part

    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    Actually a really good plan though. Love what you've done with it, really polished out a lot of the classic strategies and finessed out many of the difficulties. And the allusion in the name of the facility, just grand that. If I ever run an Evil campaign, I would love to borrow this as the premise for their adversary. Would you mind?
    Thank you, happy you like it. But how DARE you think you could use something from a handbook I wrote for general in a game! Shame on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    *applauds* Impressively done. I did not count on led-implants to block the standard magic-detection proceedures. Guess the Redeeming Sun needs to invest in some kind of internal metal detector. How many small magnets (Dungeonscape) would it take to find a box of led? Alternatively, could a ring of x-ray vision at the vessel inspection stage handle this?
    Actually, this is exactly what a ring of x-ray vision should be used for. That and Soulbow combat. As for the magnets, I'd have to look up whether or not lead is magnetic, but you'd basically need to build a magnetometer. I believe there is a spell that lets you detect various minerals though. A good heal check would also show signs of past surgery.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    I was on board until the gingers part
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    Actually, this is exactly what a ring of x-ray vision should be used for. That and Soulbow combat. As for the magnets, I'd have to look up whether or not lead is magnetic, but you'd basically need to build a magnetometer. I believe there is a spell that lets you detect various minerals though. A good heal check would also show signs of past surgery.
    Added the Ring of X-Ray vision and the Magic Circles against evil to the guide, and clarified that the Redeeming Sun consists of Hallowed Ground
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    I believe the main-qualifier for ammunition (or any weapon) to count as "wielded" is that it needs to be ready for use. Focusing on the held-in-hand clause from holy might get around that in a somewhat cheesy way, but that still leaves the issue of how to securely attach a bunch of stone-pellet's to someone's hands...
    Why don't you simply glue the bullets together and glue the whole thing to the TBR's hand(s) afterward? Maybe glue the bullets in such a way that they resemble a small figurine or holy symbol that the TBR have to hold onto during the whole redeeming process to symbolize his attachment to life. However, this treatment would require extra personnel as it's difficult to eat, change, wash and so on when your hands are glued together.
    TL;DR: I think it's possible to incorporate holy ammunition in the redeeming process without it sounding excessively cheesy, although poison rings remain the most elegant, albeit expensive, solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    Why don't you simply glue the bullets together and glue the whole thing to the TBR's hand(s) afterward? Maybe glue the bullets in such a way that they resemble a small figurine or holy symbol that the TBR have to hold onto during the whole redeeming process to symbolize his attachment to life. However, this treatment would require extra personnel as it's difficult to eat, change, wash and so on when your hands are glued together.
    TL;DR: I think it's possible to incorporate holy ammunition in the redeeming process without it sounding excessively cheesy, although poison rings remain the most elegant, albeit expensive, solution.
    I've currently changed it from Holy Poison rings with crystals to Poison rings, Gauntlets, Bracers of Blinding Strike, Necklace of Natural Attacks, and Fukimi-bari (Mouth darts) with crystals, as to save on the cost of Holy Enchantments. I also considered Braidblades, but they're from Dungeon magazine and wouldn't work on TBRs without hair.

    I've search far and wide for ammunition that could fit the bill of what is needed, but sadly came up empty. What this really needed were shuriken type things that were proper weapons but had amuntion enchantment costs; since it's too much of a rule-wise grey area otherwise. I appreciate the idea, and wish it could be done, but it just doesn't seem feasible; so the Redeemery will have to stick with crystals sadly
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Talisman of Redemption page number in CC? It all hinges on that I guess. I hate it when people forget page numbers. Not even the mango index as it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VisitingDaGulag View Post
    Talisman of Redemption page number in CC? It all hinges on that I guess. I hate it when people forget page numbers. Not even the mango index as it.
    Sorry, misremembered the name, it was Pendant of Redemption; and it's CC p. 140
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    I have made a foreseeably-final improvement by adding the possibility of doing the redemption talk with several creatures as once using Enthral as a means to increase efficiency. As far as I can tell, it's finished.
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    How about wide-scale diplomancy?

    Your forces' officers couod wear blue armor, with white gloves and capes, and a cool name.

    Make them with a Telepath, who maxes diplomacy ranks and uses Mind Seed (that's the name, right?).
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    I have made a foreseeably-final improvement by adding the possibility of doing the redemption talk with several creatures as once using Enthral as a means to increase efficiency. As far as I can tell, it's finished.
    Still has a very Lake Lao-Gai feel to it.

    How do you handle repeat offenders? You know, that one paladin who goes out, falls, becomes a Blackguard, gets redeemed, and then screws up and falls again. Not the only possible example, most lawful classes have a PRC for their screw-ups, but I think you get the gist.

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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    How about wide-scale diplomancy?

    Your forces' officers couod wear blue armor, with white gloves and capes, and a cool name.

    Make them with a Telepath, who maxes diplomacy ranks and uses Mind Seed (that's the name, right?).
    The protocol creates friendly-to-helpful creatures en mass anyway, so no real need for diplomacing. Mind seed is sadly out as it's got an evil descriptor. I love the look you're describing and would probably use it for the Redeeming Sun example, if Pelor weren't such a bright-coloured guy.

    Still has a very Lake Lao-Gai feel to it.
    There is no alignment war in the redeemery. Here we are safe. Here... we are free.

    How do you handle repeat offenders? You know, that one paladin who goes out, falls, becomes a Blackguard, gets redeemed, and then screws up and falls again. Not the only possible example, most lawful classes have a PRC for their screw-ups, but I think you get the gist.
    Haven't really thought about it it. Considering the lasting effects of hypnotism (provided it's been used in the redeemery in question), the only way I can see someone re-falling would be if they'd been magically forced. Simple break enchantments or remove curses usually get rid of the bond-to-evil. I it's aura remains evil even after the removal of the changing effect, the re-fallen TBR ought to wish to change his alignment back to good through it's own/Hypnotism's volition. If even that's not the case... then the creature in question must arguably be inherently unable to maintain a good alignment, so a third chance wouldn't really be warranted. I'd say Banishment to the first layer of Elysium, so it gets stuck there and never feeds its soul into the lower planes?
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: Saving Souls for Good and Profit [Work in Progress]

    Quote Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric View Post
    "When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man". I'll just leave this here, while also quietly noting to myself how the endings to the book and the film were different.
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    Hey everybody, some improvements have been made to the guide.

    Most importantly, the issue of how to reliably use Hypnotism on creatures of higher HD has been solved in a more elegant manner. The old solution required the use of Fiendslayer crystals and Holy weapons to impose negative levels, which was expensive. The new solution uses the Babbling Wheel from Savage Species. This baby is usually useless due to its save being DC 11, but it does not have a HD limit like the Hypnotism spell does, affects any "sane" creature within 30 ft -allowing for bulk hypnotisms- and the DC problem is moot due to the charm-to-fail-saves approach. The Holy+Crystal approach still appears in the Redeeming Sun though, as it keeps the TBRs weak.

    Other than that, I fixed a few typos, moved a few things around and added a snazzy new picture.
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    A suggestions. While I'm sure the recidivism rates would be very low, it may be useful to hire a band of good-aligned fey and encourage redeemed characters to take the Nymph's Kiss feat. Because it is an [exalted] feat that they wouldn't want to lose, you further incentivize that they avoid evil acts.

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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    Hey again. I wanted to let you know that I'm planning to build one of these in my current game. I'll let you know how it goes, and if there's anything I find to add to it (unlikely, but you never know). Since I'm starting at a lower level with less gold, I'm also going to try building it in stages. I'm playing in Faerūn, in case that matters at all.

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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    Quote Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric View Post
    Hey again. I wanted to let you know that I'm planning to build one of these in my current game. I'll let you know how it goes, and if there's anything I find to add to it (unlikely, but you never know). Since I'm starting at a lower level with less gold, I'm also going to try building it in stages. I'm playing in Faerūn, in case that matters at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    I am really late here, but i just wanted to note that you could probably make a trap of "create lantern archon" and simply shove any evil creature you cant redeem in their until they waste away

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    Default Re: The Redeemery: A protocol for reliable large-scale conversion from Evil to Good

    Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads. See the Forum Rule on Thread Necromancy.
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