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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Question Moving after attack?

    My DM has ruled that in order to take your move action (or a free or swift action for that matter) after your standard action you need to take spring attack (for meele attacks, other actions require other feats). He claims that this is the standard rule, but I can't find it in the 3.5v player's handbook. Can someone help me out?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Your DM is wrong, you can take your move action before or after your standard action. Everyone allready has this ability. Spring attack simply lets you move and attack as a standard action, which in effect lets you move twice in the round, as well as granting you the ability to move both before and after your attack.
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Using Spring Attack also means you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you're moving away from; if you simply take a move action after a standard attack you'll provoke that AoO.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Hmm, so you can:

    <move><attack>
    ---or---
    <attack><move>

    but with spring attack you can:

    <move><attack><move>?
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Yes, but Spring Attack doesn't let you take two move actions, just the one. It basically lets you split your move action around your standard/attack action, taking part of it before and part of it after.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Yes, but Spring Attack doesn't let you take two move actions, just the one. It basically lets you split your move action around your standard/attack action, taking part of it before and part of it after.
    Ah, so for (let's say a human) it would go:

    <move 15ft><attack><move 15ft> ?
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Of Anger View Post
    Ah, so for (let's say a human) it would go:

    <move 15ft><attack><move 15ft> ?
    Yes, that's how it works.
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Or any combination of 30 feet, so you can do 5ft, attack, 25ft... or vice versa, etc.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Your DM is wrong, you can take your move action before or after your standard action. Everyone allready has this ability. Spring attack simply lets you move and attack as a standard action, which in effect lets you move twice in the round, as well as granting you the ability to move both before and after your attack.
    Thanks, that's what I thought. One problem: my DM won't take this as actual proof. Is there anywhere in the rules where it actually says this?

    (Of course if I do show him proof he is likely to just say it's a house rule, but at least I win the argument)

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Go to the rules on combat. It will plainly say that you can take a move action and a standard action in a round. Point out how it does not anywhere say that you can only take a move action before an attack action.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Go to the rules on combat. It will plainly say that you can take a move action and a standard action in a round. Point out how it does not anywhere say that you can only take a move action before an attack action.
    I have, he says this is not good enough, since it says "move action and standard action", not Standard action and move action. I have to find something that expressly says you can. (Personally I think he's just being a jerk.)

    He says he will also accept if an article on wizards metions such an instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Using Spring Attack also means you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you're moving away from; if you simply take a move action after a standard attack you'll provoke that AoO.
    But see, I'm a spellcaster (In this example, an Asimer Warmage with weapon exclusivity (longbow), which is a homebrew flaw that my DM cooked up meaning I am proficent with the longbow and nothing else) so that meens that I'm rarely in a threatend square. Also one time we were defending a battlement against an army, and I wanted to be able to shoot my bow, then fall prone behind the battlement, then on my next turn use my move action to get up, shoot my bow, and then fall prone again. DM ruled that once I had taken the standard action, my turn was over, so I couldn't fall prone again even though it was a free action. Since my character was the one doing the most damage on a regular basis I was the target of a lot of attaks, and almost died twice.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Never mind. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melas View Post
    I have, he says this is not good enough, since it says "move action and standard action", not Standard action and move action. I have to find something that expressly says you can. (Personally I think he's just being a jerk.)
    So he's not just rules-lawyering, he's rules-lawyering wrong. It's the other way around; it in fact states "In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action". What does that make him, a rules-paralegal?

    Yeah, I think it's safe to say he's just being a jerk.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    I have to wonder: If I told your DM, "Help yourself to some milk and cookies," would he insist on finishing the milk before starting on the cookies? After all, I mentioned the milk first. That must mean I want him to have the milk and cookies in that exact order.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    I've also found that tactically, Spring Attack is a poor feat.

    1) It requires Dodge and Mobility, two weak feats.

    2) At most, you end up (Move-5) away from your enemy. Which means that your enemy will almost always be able to just Move up to you and attack. So defensively, its really not helping you that much.

    3) Most builds that consider using Spring Attack already have ranks of Tumble, which is a far easier way of avoiding AoO.

    3) Any build that wants to make melee attacks should generally want to make a full attack and/or a charge attack. But you can't make a full attack, and its difficult to make a charge attack and keep moving (unless you move through your enemy's square somehow, or maybe Stagger or Psionic Charge).

    Anywho, as everyone has already said, your DM is clearly wrong.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    I actually can't find anywhere that it's explicitly stated that you can do the actions in either order. I'm pretty sure it's here somewhere though.

    If you look at the description of the 5-foot step (pg 144 of the PHB) though, it does describe example turns in which both orders are used.
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    2) At most, you end up (Move-5) away from your enemy. Which means that your enemy will almost always be able to just Move up to you and attack. So defensively, its really not helping you that much.
    Well, if you have exceptionally high movement relative to your target, that's not always the case.

    Additionally, it does prevent your opponent from retaliating with a full attack. If you are worried about charging retaliation, you may be able to spring around an object, creature, or other terrain feature that prevents that.

    3) Most builds that consider using Spring Attack already have ranks of Tumble, which is a far easier way of avoiding AoO.
    But when you use that tactic, at some point, you're still in danger of full attack retaliation.

    3) Any build that wants to make melee attacks should generally want to make a full attack and/or a charge attack.
    I actually associate Spring Attack with rogues that specialize in harrying tactics, which doesn't necessarily do well with either.

    I do believe this association with rogues was in the game designer's mind, too. Spring Attack require BAB +4, which comes for a Rogue at Level 6, a level at which they earn their third feat for class levels.

    Spring Attack is really for characters that will find themselves in a position where it is necessary to engage an enemy in melee but is too squishy to stand up in toe-to-toe combat.

    But you can't make a full attack, and its difficult to make a charge attack and keep moving (unless you move through your enemy's square somehow, or maybe Stagger or Psionic Charge).
    Spring attack requires the use of the Attack action, which is a standard action, so you cannot use Spring Attack with a charge at all.
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melas View Post
    I have, he says this is not good enough, since it says "move action and standard action", not Standard action and move action. I have to find something that expressly says you can. (Personally I think he's just being a jerk.)

    He says he will also accept if an article on wizards metions such an instance.
    Try looking for a blow-by-blow combat example. There's bound to be one where someone attacks and then moves.

    If he's just being annoyed at your successful tactics, tough. The counter-tactic is called "ready action", of course, but that only gives your opponents a single attack each against you, not full attacks. And even so, the battlement should give you cover (otherwise, what's the point of having it).

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melas View Post
    DM ruled that once I had taken the standard action, my turn was over, so I couldn't fall prone again even though it was a free action.
    Oh, my. Missed that one.

    He's even saying free actions can't be taken after your standard? Where does he come up with this stuff?
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Well, if you have exceptionally high movement relative to your target, that's not always the case.
    Well, unless you're a particularly high level Monk, your enemy should always be able to reach you with a charge action, because you're only moving away with a regular Move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Additionally, it does prevent your opponent from retaliating with a full attack. If you are worried about charging retaliation, you may be able to spring around an object, creature, or other terrain feature that prevents that.

    But when you use that tactic, at some point, you're still in danger of full attack retaliation.
    It's true that you can use Spring Attack to avoid your enemy's full attack. But for the most part, you'll still be trading your single attack for his single attack or charge attack. So you're just slowing combat down, rather then actually avoiding damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    I actually associate Spring Attack with rogues that specialize in harrying tactics, which doesn't necessarily do well with either.

    Spring Attack is really for characters that will find themselves in a position where it is necessary to engage an enemy in melee but is too squishy to stand up in toe-to-toe combat.
    That's a fair point. But I believe that its far more optimal for Rogues and other non-caster characters who want to avoid melee should use ranged attacks. It's silly to use three feats just so that you can make one melee attack per round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Spring attack requires the use of the Attack action, which is a standard action, so you cannot use Spring Attack with a charge at all.
    Whoops, right you are. That makes it even weaker then I though it would be.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Oh, my. Missed that one.

    He's even saying free actions can't be taken after your standard? Where does he come up with this stuff?
    Yes. He claims that in 3.0 once you took your standard action, your turn was over. Since there is nothing in 3.5 that counters this, the rule stands. I think he's actually sighting an even earlier version, or else confusing the systems (he uses the Heros system in another game, which I don't play).



    Quote Originally Posted by Scribbler View Post
    I actually can't find anywhere that it's explicitly stated that you can do the actions in either order. I'm pretty sure it's here somewhere though.

    If you look at the description of the 5-foot step (pg 144 of the PHB) though, it does describe example turns in which both orders are used.
    I looked it up and if this doesn't work, nothing will. It even discribes takeing a move action (closing the door) after a stadard action (casting fireball). Thanks, I just hope that he doesn't just say house rule, but at least I can win the argument. Bo-shaka!

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I've also found that tactically, Spring Attack is a poor feat.

    1) It requires Dodge and Mobility, two weak feats.

    2) At most, you end up (Move-5) away from your enemy. Which means that your enemy will almost always be able to just Move up to you and attack. So defensively, its really not helping you that much.
    Where it shines is when you get a bonus to your base speed. Monks, for example, can really stymie opponents -- particularly if the terrain prevents their opponents from charging (which is the only way to make up the difference). But any class can benefit from this with the appropriate magic items.

    Its also more useful for supporting characters in actual gameplay than it is for 1-on-1 arena match-ups. For example, it can be very useful for the rogue to duck in to flanking position, sneak attack the guy in melee with the fighter, and then get back out again before that guy can clobber the rogue's low AC. Sure, the guy can still try to pursue the rogue (who may only be 15 feet away), but then he provokes an AoO from the fighter.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    It's true that you can use Spring Attack to avoid your enemy's full attack. But for the most part, you'll still be trading your single attack for his single attack or charge attack. So you're just slowing combat down, rather then actually avoiding damage.
    This is only true if you are fighting in a vacume. One-on-one, it is only going to be usefull, atleast most likely, when you can apply reach and combat reflexes to get multiple attacks when your opponent is only getting one.

    But D&D is designed to play in a group much more so than Solo play. Spring attack becomes far more usefull when you can use it to force an enemy chose between chasing you down and suffer an AoO from the tank who will then charge him again, or stay and diliver his full attack to the person who is best designed to take it. Also, it helps ensure as a rouge that you'll get the flanking bonus/percision damage. Yes tumble will do that to, but tumble doesn't let you prevent the baddy from mincing you on his round. Im sure other uses of spring attack can be applied to group tactics as well.
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olethros View Post
    Im sure other uses of spring attack can be applied to group tactics as well.
    Like advancing to strike the enemy, then falling back to threaten the areas around/ahead of your party, or using its AoO-protection to get into the heart of the enemy formation for a Whirlwind Attack (which the original critic neglected). The OC also neglected that all his complaints about short-range Spring-Attacking apply doubly to Tumble, unless you can take the -10 to move at full speed. People that think that Spring Attack is weak don't really think it through.

    And the OP's DM has no clue.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    You want to be sneaky? Go to the section of Example of Play in the hardcover. I'm AFB at the moment, so I don't know what page. Show him the players' turns, and he'll see that they are moving and THEN attacking or spellcasting in almost every case.

    Sneaky, huh?
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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    To clarify... spring attack lets you take an attack in the middle of your move action. So you could take half your move action, attack, then finish your move action.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    AH-HA!!

    Melas, point your jerk of a DM to the 3.5 PHB pg. 135, left column under Actions.

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    Default Re: Moving after attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggorian View Post
    AH-HA!!

    Melas, point your jerk of a DM to the 3.5 PHB pg. 135, left column under Actions.



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