Elven Weapon Specialist

[RMS Oceanic]

I was thinking about designing an Elven fighter who made use of two-weapon fighting with Elven Thinblade and Elven Lightblade, as my DM rules ever race gets proficiency with two racial weapons each. The idea would be I would qualify for the Tempest by Level 7, so at Tempest 3, I could apply improved critical to both weapons and become a critical machine.

Beware, there's some heavy duty min/maxing about to happen.

Original Stats (DM's standard): 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8

Elf Level 1 Fighter XP: 0

Alignment: Chaotic Good

STR: 14 (+2)
CON: 14 (+2)
DEX: 20 (+5)
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA 8 (-1)

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Armour Class: 10 + 4 + 5 = 18
Hit Dice: 1d10+2 Hit Points = 12

Fortitude Save: 2+2 = 4
Reflex Save: 0+5 = 5
Will Save: 0+0 = 0

Weapons
Elven Thinblade (1d8, Piercing, Critical Range 18-20)
Elven Lightblade (1d6, Piercing, Critical Range 18-20)

Armor
Chain Shirt (Light armor, +4 AC, -2 armor check penalty)

Movement: 30ft

Total Skill Points: 12 (3 per level)
Max Class Skill: 4
Max Cross-class Skill: 2
Jump: 4+2*
Climb: 4+2*
Swim: 4+2*

*Armor Check Penalty applies. Double for swim

Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan

Flaws (For every flaw, gain a bonus feat. No more than two.)
Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks)
Murky Eyed (Roll two die on concealment miss chance. If one fails, they both fail)

Feats
Weapon Finesse (Add Dex instead of Str to attack rolls for light weapons and rapiers)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Penalties for Two-Weapon Fighting Reduced to -2)
Dodge (+1 AC against named target)
Weapon Focus (Elven Thinblade - +1 to all attack rolls)

Future Progression
2nd
Mobility (+4 AC against Attacks of Opportunity)
3rd
Spring Attack (Move before and after attack)
4th
Weapon Specialization (Elven Thinblade - +2 to damage rolls)
Strength +1
6th
??? (Not sure)*
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Second Off hand attack at -5 penalty)
7th
First Tempest Level – +1 to AC
8th
Second Tempest Level – TWF penalties reduced to -1
+1 Strength
9th
Third Tempest Level – Apply focus, specialization, critical feats to both weapons, +2 to AC
Improved Critical (Elven Thinblade – double critical threat range)

*I'm thinking of either Dual Strike, Two-Weapon Pounce or Improved Buckler Defense

Items to Buy
+2 Strength item (4000)
Mithral Breastplate (Tempest abilities need light armour) (4200)
+1 and Collision ability on swords (+5 damage, 16000 each)

Nothing's set in stone, so I could change the stats around if you disagree with them. Does this look solid, or should I rethink it entirely?

[Hazkali]

Hmmm....

Has your DM allowed Flaws? If so, has he vetoed your taking of the "Shaky" flaw? For a close-combat orientated character, that flaw is not much of a flaw, and personally as a DM I'd have a problem with it.

Other than that it looks okay, except why are you upping strength at level 4 and 8? Surely with weapon finesse you want to be upping your already impressive Dexterity?

[RMS Oceanic]

Yeah, he's let flaws in. I may need to change shaky, though. Perhaps Vulnerable (-1 AC) would go down better.

And I up strength because I eventually want to deal more damage. I think a Dex modifier of +5 is pretty much all I'll need in combat for a long time. I could be wrong, however. That's why this thread exists. What do you think about my second 6th level feat?

[Hazkali]

Erm, as none of your 6th level feats are on the SRD I can't really comment on the one's you've suggested. However power attack starts to become useful around 6th level.

NOTE: Just found a problem- according to the SRD, Spring Attack requires a BAB of +4, meaning you can't take it at 3rd level.

So, you'll need to push Spring Attack back to 4th level, and Weapon Specialisation to 6th level.

At 3rd level, I'd choose Improved Unarmed Strike. Not a wasted feat when you're tied up and your weapons taken...

[Matthew]

Consider taking Oversized Two Weapon Fighting before Dodge, then you can use two Elven Thin Blades (Also Known as Elven Long Swords...)

[Douglas]

Since you're already going elf with elven thin blades and TWF, I'd suggest Champion of Corellon Larethian from Races of the Wild. Among other things, it gives your dexterity bonus to damage at level 2 (minimum character level 9 thanks to BAB +7 prereq).

[Miles Invictus]

Has your DM allowed Flaws? If so, has he vetoed your taking of the "Shaky" flaw? For a close-combat orientated character, that flaw is not much of a flaw, and personally as a DM I'd have a problem with it.

They actually cover this. Basically, players tend to minimize the effects of flaws, so your standard flaw is stronger than your standard feat. (And, realistically, not very many people are going to take a career that emphasizes their weaknesses. Do you also have problems with low-Int Fighters and low-Str Wizards?)

Oversized TWF is probably not the best choice, given that you're only upgrading from a 1d6 to a 1d8...an average damage increase of 1. A better choice would be Two-Weapon Rend. Yes, it's conditional (once per round, must hit your foe with both weapons), but the damage output is a lot higher; you gain 1d6 + 1.5 Str as bonus damage. Of course...that doesn't sound terribly impressive either.

At BAB +8, you can take Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing). In and of itself it doesn't do much, but it clears the way to Slashing Flurry at BAB +14, which lets you gain an extra attack with any weapon you wield, by taking a -5 penalty to all attacks.

If you're going the Spring Attack route, you could pick up Bounding Assault at BAB +12, and Rapid Blitz at BAB +18. They give you additional attacks and targets whenever you use Spring Attack.

[Douglas]

The reason to take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is not to upgrade the damage die but to be able to benefit from Power Attack with the off hand weapon without taking an extra -2 penalty to everything. It also means you don't have to take weapon specific feats twice.

[Hazkali]

@ Miles Invictus: I see where you and the rules are coming from but I still wouldn't allow my players to take a flaw that in no way impinges upon their character's abilities. For example, I would equally have a problem with a Wizard taking the Noncombatant (-2 penalty on melee attack rolls) flaw because the trade-off in this instance is not balanced. The utility of the extra feat is more than the penalty of the flaw.
That being said, I would never use the flaws system. For a campaign with "flawed" characters I would use GURPS or Unisystem. D+D is for superheroes!

[Tor the Fallen]

Is there something in the Tempest PrC that makes spring attack and TWF work together?
Otherwise, move 15 feat, make one attack, move back 15 feat doesn't sound very optimized.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm having a complete rethink on this. I've discovered in Races of the Wild that both the lightblade and thinblade count as rapiers for weapon focus/specialization etc., so my original motives for being a tempest have already been dealt with. I think TWF works very well with Corellion Champion's dex damage ability (+5 damage with both hits currently), so I'll head towards that instead.

As for my flaw selection, I'll go with vulnerable (-1 AC) and blurry eyed (only 25% to hit concealed). I'm thinking of changing my ability selection, to gain benefits from the Champion's lay on hands ability, but I still want to keep a positive strength modifier for things like two-weapon rend. Any recommendations for an ability array of 18/16/14/12/10/8. pre-racial modifiers?

[Miles Invictus]

The reason to take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is not to upgrade the damage die but to be able to benefit from Power Attack with the off hand weapon without taking an extra -2 penalty to everything. It also means you don't have to take weapon specific feats twice.

Right, but Oceanic made it clear in the original post that Dervish 3 lets him apply weapon-specific feats to both weapons. And Power Attack wasn't in the original stat block, though that is a good point. (Does Oversized TWF say "reduce penalties", or "treat as a primary-hand weapon"? The first interpretation would suggest Power Attack still wouldn't work, while the second implies that it would.)

@ Miles Invictus: I see where you and the rules are coming from but I still wouldn't allow my players to take a flaw that in no way impinges upon their character's abilities. For example, I would equally have a problem with a Wizard taking the Noncombatant (-2 penalty on melee attack rolls) flaw because the trade-off in this instance is not balanced. The utility of the extra feat is more than the penalty of the flaw.
That being said, I would never use the flaws system. For a campaign with "flawed" characters I would use GURPS or Unisystem. D+D is for superheroes!

I can understand that. The reactive flaws (penalties to saves, AC, etc) are probably better balanced than active ones (penalties to attacks, movement, etc), for that exact reason. If I were to run a game with flaws, I'd probably only allow those ones.

Even superheroes can have debilitating weaknesses, by the way.

[asqwasqw]

I can understand that. The reactive flaws (penalties to saves, AC, etc) are probably better balanced than active ones (penalties to attacks, movement, etc), for that exact reason. If I were to run a game with flaws, I'd probably only allow those ones.

Even superheroes can have debilitating weaknesses, by the way.

Egads, Kryptonite! But I never trust flaws, because they are too easily abused. Althought it might be fun to take Vunerable (-1AC) in order to get TWD (+1 to AC).

[Jasdoif]

(Does Oversized TWF say "reduce penalties", or "treat as a primary-hand weapon"? The first interpretation would suggest Power Attack still wouldn't work, while the second implies that it would.)

Oversized TWF reduces the TWF penalties for having a one-handed weapon in your off-hand. But the reason Power Attack works is because the text of Power Attack talks about light, one-handed and two-handed weapons. It makes no distinction for off-hand weapons.

[Miles Invictus]

...so even without OTWF, you would get Power Attack bonuses in your off-hand? Interesting.

[Zincorium]

...so even without OTWF, you would get Power Attack bonuses in your off-hand? Interesting.

Well, OTWF doesn't come into it in the first place. The only requirement for power attacking is that you're using a one handed weapon. You can still use two one handed weapons without OTWF, it's just at a penalty high enough that it's not worth it. At the same time, whether you're using TWF or not, you can't power attack at all with light weapons.

In any case, best TWF setup is a two handed weapon and an unarmed strike. Double power attack on the 'main hand' attack, one for one with the 'off hand' attack.

[Matthew]

Indeed, though Armour Spikes can be Enchanted, so you might be better off with them in the long run...

Yeah, since both Elven Thin Blade and Light Blade are considered Rapiers for purposes of Weapon Focus and the like (how sick is that?) and since this build does not feature Power Attack there is apparently no need for Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.

I hate Elven Racial Weapons...

[RMS Oceanic]

They're looking pretty good from over here. :)

Our DM let us reroll stats (long story), and I got some pretty good ones. Since the game hasn't started yet, I'm going to rapidly modify him for progression to CoCL.

Original Stats: 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 11

Elf Level 1 Fighter XP: 0

Alignment: Chaotic Good

STR: 15 (+2)
DEX: 20 (+5)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 11 (+0)
CHA: 13 (+1)

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Armour Class: 10 + 4 + 5 -1 = 18
Hit Dice: 1d10+2 Hit Points = 12

Fortitude Save: 2+2 = 4
Reflex Save: 0+5 = 5
Will Save: 0+0 = 0

Weapons
Elven Thinblade (1d8, Piercing, Critical Range 18-20)
Elven Lightblade (1d6, Piercing, Critical Range 18-20)

Armor
Chain Shirt (Light armor, +4 AC, -2 armor check penalty)

Movement: 30ft

Total Skill Points: 16 (4 per level)
Max Class Skill: 4
Max Cross-class Skill: 2
Jump: 4+2*
Climb: 4+2*
Knowledge (Religion) cc: 2+2
Diplomacy cc: 2+1

*Armor Check Penalty applies. Double for swim

Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan, Goblin

Flaws (For every flaw, gain a bonus feat. No more than two.)
Vulnerable (-1 to AC)
Murky Eyed (Roll two die on concealment miss chance. If one fails, they both fail)

Feats
Weapon Finesse (Add Dex instead of Str to attack rolls for light weapons and rapiers)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Penalties for Two-Weapon Fighting Reduced to -2)
Dodge (+1 AC against named target)
Weapon Focus (Rapier - +1 to all attack rolls)

Future Progression
2nd
Combat Expertise (Trade BAB for AC)
3rd
Mounted Combat (Don't intend to use)
4th
Weapon Specialization (Rapier - +2 to damage rolls)
??? +1*
6th
???**
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Second Off hand attack at -5 penalty)
8th
Begin CoCL levelling
Improved Trip
??? +1*
9th
Second CoCL level
Improved Critical (Rapier – double critical threat range)
10th
Eighth Fighter Level
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing - +2 to attack and damage rolls)
11th+
Continue CoCL Levels

*My options are either Strength for extra damage against undead, dexterity for Graceful Strike damage or Charisma to improve the Lay on Hands ability.
**I'm thinking of either Dual Strike, Two-Weapon Pounce or Improved Buckler Defense.

Do you have any criticisms about this proposed build and planned progression?

[Roethke]

@ Miles Invictus: I see where you and the rules are coming from but I still wouldn't allow my players to take a flaw that in no way impinges upon their character's abilities. For example, I would equally have a problem with a Wizard taking the Noncombatant (-2 penalty on melee attack rolls) flaw because the trade-off in this instance is not balanced. The utility of the extra feat is more than the penalty of the flaw.
That being said, I would never use the flaws system. For a campaign with "flawed" characters I would use GURPS or Unisystem. D+D is for superheroes!

Heh. I'd kind of agree with this. Then again, the vision of a a 'Murky-eyed', 'Vulnerable' Elven swashbuckler, is sort of amusing. Kind of like an elvish Don Quixote.

[BardicDuelist]

Change Weapon Focus (thinblade) to Weapon Focus (rapier) since CW says that you can apply feats like Weapon Focus for rapier to both of the weapons (thinblade: rapier/longsword is allowed, lightblade: rapier/shortsword).

[Matthew]

Same for Improved Critical. Looks good otherwise.

[RMS Oceanic]

I thought I had already changed it to select Improved Critical (rapier). Oh well, I'll change that now.

In the mean time, which ability score should I choose to improve at levels 4 and 8? And which feat should I select at level six?

[Lolzords]

Might I suggest playing an Elf subrace, sylvan elves? They get a +2 to str and a -2 to int in addition to the normal (+2 dex -2 con). It would serve you well in combat. Or, you could play a diffrent subrace, grugrach. Basically an elf but instead of +2 dex -2 con it's +2 dex -2 int. Both of those would improve your str or con and improve your melee ability.

[Matthew]

I thought I had already changed it to select Improved Critical (rapier). Oh well, I'll change that now.

In the mean time, which ability score should I choose to improve at levels 4 and 8? And which feat should I select at level six?

Maybe Improved Combat Expertise / Superior Expertise? Strength or Dexterity are options. A two point increase in Dexterity will give you an extra +1, but you could increase two of any other Attribute Scores, +1 DB, +1 Will Save or +1 Charisma based stuff. Hard to say really. I would probably be inclined to increase Strength and Wisdom, but there is a good argument to increase Dexterity.

[RMS Oceanic]

Might I suggest playing an Elf subrace, sylvan elves? They get a +2 to str and a -2 to int in addition to the normal (+2 dex -2 con). It would serve you well in combat. Or, you could play a diffrent subrace, grugrach. Basically an elf but instead of +2 dex -2 con it's +2 dex -2 int. Both of those would improve your str or con and improve your melee ability.

I had considered sub-elfing, but those options you outline would reduce my int to 12, rendering me unsuitable for Combat Expertise (Int 13) and entry to CoCL.

Matthew, I'm thinking of +1 Strength then +1 Charisma. Extra damage and Extra Lay on Hands. Both sound good to me. Superior Expertise sounds interesting, but I'm still not sure...

[ObsidianRose]

Wait, am I crazy here, or do both the lightblade and thinblade count as rapiers for the sake of weapon focus, etc? If so, then maybe go the swiftblade/tempest path with these?

[RMS Oceanic]

Um, why go the tempest route? I don't follow you. Since they're both rapiers, I can already apply Weapon Focus to both of them. Could you please elaborate why Swiftblade/Tempest is a good idea?

[the_tick_rules]

well with tempest their weapon versatility allows means you only need to invest focus, specialize, and imp crit feats for only one weapon. among other tempests benefits i've mentioned many times before.

[RMS Oceanic]

Um, that's what I'm doing. Since both the Lightblade and Thinblade are rapiers, I only have to use the one feat to apply to both of them. Having this feature already means the remaining benefits of Tempest aren't really worth it, I think, when compared to CoCL.

[Annarrkkii]

There are NOT many tempest benefits. You are right, RMS Oceanic, in your decision to switch to the Champion of Corellan Larethian.

Use your 4-level bumps to increase Dexterity—that will increase your attack bonus, damage bonus, AC, and a few key skills—in stead of strength.

You can bump back ITWF to 6th level, if you have a question mark there at the moment, and drop Mounted Combat. You don't need Mounted Combat if you don't intend to use it. It could come in handy, but rapiers really aren't horsemanish weapons, and negate your entire Spring Attack tree (save Dodge) by hopping on a horsey. Seriously consider just investing in some Ride ranks and using your 3rd-level Feat slot to pick up Dual Strike.