Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Retributive Tank Class

    Just an idea that rolled around in my head that I wanted to type up. Basically, you tank by making enemies very afraid of attacking anyone but you, instead of directly taunting or controlling.

    Servant of Retribution

    Servants of Retribution are protectors by prevention. Those they fight know that attacking anyone other than the Servant comes with a steep price. As allies are injured, the Servant gains strength, crushing threats, then channels the remaining energy into healing and reviving allies.

    GAME RULE INFORMATION

    Prerequisites
    Alignment: Good or Lawful.
    BAB: +6
    Special: Must have preexisting levels in a class to advance - See Advancement.

    Hit Die: d12
    Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier

    Servant of Retribution
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Other Advancement
    1st
    +1
    +2
    +0
    +2
    Retribution Pool +1 Level
    2nd
    +2
    +3
    +0
    +3
    Preserve Life +1 Level
    3rd
    +3
    +3
    +1
    +3
    Avenging Strike +1 Level
    4th
    +4
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Withstand Pain +1 Level
    5th
    +6
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Retributive Revenance -
    6th
    +6
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Preserve Life (Mass) +1 Level
    7th
    +7
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Avenging Strike (Full Attack) +1 Level
    8th
    +8
    +6
    +2
    +6
    Preserve Life (Revenance) +1 Level
    9th
    +9
    +6
    +3
    +6
    Stand Eternal +1 Level
    10th
    +10
    +7
    +3
    +7
    End the Enemy -

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Servant of Retribution.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: None gained.

    Advancement: A Servant does not stray too far from the path of his existing training, continuing to advance in his skills. At each level except 5th and 10th, a Servant gains one of the following benefits:

    • +1 level in an existing divine spellcasting class
    • +1 level in an existing initiator class
    • +1 level for determining a Paladin's Special Mount, Lay on Hands, and Smite Evil
    • +1 effective Fighter level for gaining and qualifying for feats
    • +1 effective Barbarian level for gaining Rage/day and Rage modifiers


    Any other advancements a DM deems reasonable can be substituted here.

    Retribution Pool (Ex): A Servant gains strength as he rages against enemies who would dare attack his allies. Every time an enemy deals damage to one of his allies, the Servant adds a point of Retribution to his pool, gaining bonuses to attack and damage. Every time the Servant is damaged, a point is removed, and after 5 minutes without combat, the pool is emptied.

    1 point - +1
    3 points - +2
    6 points - +3
    10 points - +4
    15 points - +5
    (N)*(N+1)/2 points - +N

    (Basically, each additional point of bonus takes one more point of Retribution to reach.)

    This bonus cannot exceed the Servant's level+3.

    Any enemy that contributes to your pool becomes aware that they are empowering you. You may cause this in any number of way, from foreboding whispers to shouting warning, but regardless, this does not have any combat effect other than to inform.

    At 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level, the number of Retribution points the Servant gains or loses per instance of damage increases by 1.

    Preserve Life: While Servants are dedicated to meting out justice, vengeance does little good to the dead. To help better protect, the Servant and allies within 60 feet of a Servant can take an additional (Servant Level + Servant's Constitution Score) damage into the negatives before dying.

    Additionally, as a standard action, the Servant can drain a number of Retribution points to heal an ally within 60 feet for (3+Con Mod/2) times the number of points drained. The Servant cannot drain a number of points greater than the Servant's class level for this ability.

    At 6th level, the Servant can use this ability on each ally within 60 feet at once by expending twice the Retribution points. The servant cannot drain a number of points greater than twice the Servant's class level for this ability.

    At 8th level, the Servant can expend 8 Retribution points as a a standard action to cast Revenance on an ally who died within 1 round and within 60 feet, reviving them with half health and a +1 morale bonus to attack, damage, saves and checks for 1 round per level. He may only do this once every 5 minutes.

    Avenging Strike: The most frequently used of the Servant's strikes, Avenging Strike channels Retribution points to further punish enemies. By removing points from his Retribution pool as a free action, the Servant gains an equal amount of bonus to his damage on one attack. This cannot grant a bonus greater than the Servant's class level.

    At 7th level, the Servant can apply the damage bonus to each attack in a Full Attack, instead of a single attack.

    Withstand Pain: As a Servant redirects enemy focus to him with threat of retribution, he must learn to survive the assaults of the enemy. As such, he may use an immediate action to gain DR/- equal to his level for one round, up to once per encounter, plus one per point of bonus from Retribution.

    Retributive Revenance: As the Servant becomes more dedicated to his cause, he gains the ability to defy death for some time to finish his duty. If the Servant dies with points in his Retribution Pool, he revives with half his normal hit points. However, if he drops to a second time, or runs out of Retribution points, he dies. He also loses a point of Retribution each round while in this revenant state.

    Stand Eternal: In preparation for the final stage of the Servant's eternal contribution for his cause, the Servant becomes capable of meting out justice for eternity, as long as there is cause. This allows him to restore himself from Retributive Revenance for 9 Retribution Points as an immediate action, effectively turning the Revenance into a full resurrection. Additionally, the Servant does not age as long as he enters combat at least once a day.

    End the Enemy: The final piece of a Servant's training, the Servant learns how to not just strike down his enemies, but to bring them eternal justice. Whenever a Servant of tenth level slays an evil enemy, he may pay 10 Retribution Points to cast their soul into Hell and disintegrate their body, no matter what protections they may have (such as a lich's phylactery). Additionally, an enemy slain this way cannot be resurrected in any fashion without a Wish or Miracle to cancel this effect.
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2015-04-25 at 05:17 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tsunamiatunzen1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs up Re: Retributive Tank Class

    NICE!
    I'd definitely love to play this Prestige class since I run Fighter tanks a lot of times and it feels like I don't have a lot of power to dish out damage after spending all of my feats to preserve my allies.

    I do have a quick question, did you intend the Prestige class to continue people's advancement in their classes? e.g. Servant of Retribution copies previous class(es)?
    If so, I don't know how well DM's would take it. I personally think that it's a great idea since it gives a much needed boost for the classes that generally don't get a lot of screen time in the high-end games. Also, does this not include the spellcasting classes or Psionic classes?
    I could see why since I could see someone going after this class specifically to make themselves very tough while sacrificing none of their spellcasting prowess.

    Also, I would possibly add some sort of Divine Prerequisite/feat since the flavor seems very geared towards drawing down divine wrath.
    Although I could see Fighters possibly using a True Believer feat to gain access to this.

    You might want to clarify something here:
    Additionally, as a standard action, the Servant can drain a number of points to heal an ally within 60 feet for (Constitution Modifier) times the number of points drained. The Servant cannot drain a number of points greater than the Servant's class level for this ability.
    You might want to clarify that the points that are being drained are coming from the Retributive Pool. (Awesome idea too! Not OP but still enough flavor and gives tanks that extra oomph they need to make that pesky opponent pay if he chooses to pick on the mage!)

    I would be willing to look more into this homebrew since it looks like you've spent a good amount of thought and time to put this together.
    Invincibility lies in the defense. The possibility of victory is in the attack.
    - Diamond Sword

    Featured Homebrews:
    (SF) bombs and Hangar Support
    The Forge (Crafting System)
    (SF) Advanced Tactical Interface

    Extended Homebrew Sig

    Dice (feel free to use them!):
    Spoiler
    Show
    [roll]1d20+[/roll]
    [roll]1d6[/roll]
    [rollv]3d6[/rollv]
    [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Oh, hey, thanks!

    For the advancement: Yeah, it's supposed to advance core abilities of classes, with the exception of arcane or psionic casting. It's only 8/10ths though, and it does try to redirect damage to the Servant, hopefully hurts enough to discourage squishies from taking it.

    I wanted it to be open to most noncasting classes just so they can enhance their tanking, but since tank/melee clerics are a thing, I added the divine casting. Not so sure about arcane tanks, so I cut that (though they are certainly possible).

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tsunamiatunzen1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Hmmm, there's one other thing about this that doesn't fit. The Skill points at 1st level. Since this is a Prestige Class it will not get the x4 bonus.
    Also, what are the class skills for the Servant of Retribution? The same as the Base class? If so, you'll want to include that in there.

    Out of curiosity, why the alignment? The Good makes sense, but I'm not sure about the fact that it's Good or Lawful. Making this Prestige Class open to some Evil characters?
    It seems fine, but I'd like to see what you had in mind in terms of fluff.
    Invincibility lies in the defense. The possibility of victory is in the attack.
    - Diamond Sword

    Featured Homebrews:
    (SF) bombs and Hangar Support
    The Forge (Crafting System)
    (SF) Advanced Tactical Interface

    Extended Homebrew Sig

    Dice (feel free to use them!):
    Spoiler
    Show
    [roll]1d20+[/roll]
    [roll]1d6[/roll]
    [rollv]3d6[/rollv]
    [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Oh yeah, oops This is a copy-pasted template from the Base Class Contest and I forgot to delete that. And I think I'll make a custom skill list, but haven't gotten around to it - that's always one of the parts I put off most I might just make it as-base-class though, yeah.

    The idea behind the alignment is that either you believe strongly in protecting/avenging the vulnerable (Good) or believe in some sort of code or law or balance that promotes an eye for an eye.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tsunamiatunzen1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    Oh yeah, oops This is a copy-pasted template from the Base Class Contest and I forgot to delete that. And I think I'll make a custom skill list, but haven't gotten around to it - that's always one of the parts I put off most I might just make it as-base-class though, yeah.

    The idea behind the alignment is that either you believe strongly in protecting/avenging the vulnerable (Good) or believe in some sort of code or law or balance that promotes an eye for an eye.
    If you want I can quickly draft up a skill tree and possibly even a sample Servant of Retribution.
    Myth-Weavers has a sheet that I can use for that. Plus, I want to see how this would possibly go.
    Maybe run a short test adventure for the character?
    Invincibility lies in the defense. The possibility of victory is in the attack.
    - Diamond Sword

    Featured Homebrews:
    (SF) bombs and Hangar Support
    The Forge (Crafting System)
    (SF) Advanced Tactical Interface

    Extended Homebrew Sig

    Dice (feel free to use them!):
    Spoiler
    Show
    [roll]1d20+[/roll]
    [roll]1d6[/roll]
    [rollv]3d6[/rollv]
    [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Eh, I don't know how much I'm really invested in it, it was just something that popped up in my head though, if you need a DM for a game using it, feel free to PM me about it.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tsunamiatunzen1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Also, forgot to ask, would the level advancement thing apply to the Palidin's spellcasting ability as well? I noticed that it only listed a few particular things. Is that intentional?
    Invincibility lies in the defense. The possibility of victory is in the attack.
    - Diamond Sword

    Featured Homebrews:
    (SF) bombs and Hangar Support
    The Forge (Crafting System)
    (SF) Advanced Tactical Interface

    Extended Homebrew Sig

    Dice (feel free to use them!):
    Spoiler
    Show
    [roll]1d20+[/roll]
    [roll]1d6[/roll]
    [rollv]3d6[/rollv]
    [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Paladins can choose divine spellcasting but then they don't get Mount, LoH or Smite advancement. I chose what I felt were the core features of each class.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stuck in a bottle.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    Prerequisites
    Alignment: Good or Lawful.
    BAB: +6
    Special: Must have preexisting levels in a class to advance - See Advancement.

    • +1 level in an existing divine spellcasting class
    • +1 level in an existing initiator class
    • +1 level for determining a Paladin's Special Mount, Lay on Hands, and Smite Evil
    • +1 effective Fighter level for gaining and qualifying for feats
    • +1 effective Barbarian level for gaining Rage/day and Rage modifiers
    Note that this is really good, due to the progression given. Most initiators, Fighters, and Paladins lose effectively nothing by taking this class. Even some melee-focused Divine Casters will gladly eat the 2-level delay in exchange for the huge potential bonuses to attack rolls, damage rolls, and the in-combat resurrection.


    Retribution Pool (Ex): A Servant gains strength as he rages against enemies who would dare attack his allies. Every time an enemy deals damage to one of his allies, the Servant adds a point of Retribution to his pool, gaining bonuses to attack and damage. Every time the Servant is damaged, a point is removed, and after 5 minutes without combat, the pool is emptied.
    Alright. Our main "attack ME" mechanic. A few things:

    First, this isn't at all a discouragement if the Servant can't attack the opponent due to mechanics like flight or incorporeality. May not be a huge concern, but it bears mentioning. Second, the Servant will ALREADY have (likely) a full attack bonus (and thus a solid chance to hit already), so this is effectively just a +damage ability unless you have the positioning to land a full attack. Thirdly, the "lose a point when damaged" really only matters up until about level 3 -- once you're gaining 3+ points of Retribution per ally hit, the tiny amount of reduction an attack on you causes is almost not worth it for the enemy.

    I'd also do a clarification pass: there's currently no rule for how many times an enemy's attack can cause Retribution gain. If an attack hits 3 allies for 10 damage each, does that count as ONE time an enemy deals damage to an ally (a single attack), or THREE times (since the single attack hit 3 allies)? There's also no range on the ability, so, as currently written, if someone attacks an ally on the opposite side of the planet you gain an attack bonus. You might also want to cap the gain per round -- this could get INSANE in pitched battle scenarios, for example. Imagine a group of 100 archers and a Servant fighting another group of 100 level 1 mages. Each mage uses Magic Missile, hitting 2 archers. The level 10 Servant gains 1200 Retribution.


    Preserve Life: While Servants are dedicated to meting out justice, vengeance does little good to the dead. To help better protect, the Servant and allies within 60 feet of a Servant can take an additional (Servant Level + Servant's Constitution Score) damage into the negatives before dying.
    Seems fine.

    Additionally, as a standard action, the Servant can drain a number of Retribution points to heal an ally within 60 feet for (Constitution Modifier) times the number of points drained. The Servant cannot drain a number of points greater than the Servant's class level for this ability.
    This is a fine ability, but only if you've invested in Constitution. If you haven't, it is basically never worth the time. You lose an action (and thus an empowered Retribution attack), lose the possibility of a FULL action (and thus your most effective Retribution attack routine), reduce your Retribution for future uses, and heal a grand total of something like 40 hit points.

    That said, if you DO dump Constitution this ability becomes, possibly, too powerful once you level up. If you gain 6 Retribution per hit on an ally, and you have a Constitution of 30 (not outside the realm of possibility), you can restore 60 hit points per round to an ally. If the enemy can't reliably DEAL 60+ hit points per round to a single target, you've just made your team invincible.

    In short, I think this ability is rather swingy: it'll probably never be used except when it can completely dictate the flow of the battle. I think I'd prefer to see the healing standardized (1d8 / level, for example) instead of scaling multiplicative on a stat that could be anywhere from 18 to 30.

    At 8th level, the Servant can expend 8 Retribtion points to cast Revenance on an ally who died within 1 round and within 60 feet, reviving them with half health and a +1 morale bonus to attack, damage, saves and checks for 1 round per level.
    With no limit to uses per encounter / day / ally, a revive with half hit points, and a cost that, by 6th level, is a single attack on an ally, this ability is insanely good. Sure, your ally is going to die eventually...but they'll keep ticking the entire fight.

    This ability would be significantly balanced by at least stating that the Servant needs to spend the Standard Action that casting Revenance would normally require, or allowing it as a Swift / Immediate action, put limiting it's use to 1/day or 1/encounter, possibly scaling with level.

    Avenging Strike: The most frequently used of the Servant's strikes, Avenging Strike channels Retribution points to further punish enemies. By removing points from his Retribution pool as a free action, the Servant gains an equal amount of bonus to his damage on one attack. This cannot grant a bonus greater than the Servant's class level.
    This seems underwhelming, given that Retribution already gives a damage bonus. Consuming a static damage bonus to get a burst of damage SEEMS nice, but it's not really a particularly fun mechanic, especially when the class has so many ways of dumping excess Retribution anyway.

    Withstand Pain: As a Servant redirects enemy focus to him with threat of retribution, he must learn to survive the assaults of the enemy. As such, he gains DR/- equal to half his class level and does not take penalty for negative hit points.
    Confusing for the DM -- do we not attack the Servant or not attack the Servant? It's functional, but I'd almost prefer to see the Servant have some active mitigation based on Retribution use, so attacking him at higher levels actually DOES reduce his Retribution by a meaningful amount.

    Retributive Revenance: As the Servant becomes more dedicated to his cause, he gains the ability to defy death for some time to finish his duty. If the Servant dies with points in his Retribution Pool, he revives with half his normal hit points. However, if he drops to a second time, or runs out of Retribution points, he dies. He also loses a point of Retribution each round while in this revenant state.
    You should put a daily or encounter limit on this: as written, it functions exactly once. A simple "Once a Servant has revived through the use of this ability, he may not benefit from its use again for 24 hours."

    Also note that, as written, you will always die again. If that's intentional, that's fine. If it's not intentional, you probably need to remove the "or runs out of Retribution points" clause: it causes him to die 5 minutes after combat, no matter how many healing spells have been pumped into him.

    Stand Eternal: In preparation for the final stage of the Servant's eternal contribution for his cause, the Servant becomes capable of meting out justice for eternity, as long as there is cause. This allows him to restore himself from Retributive Revenance for 9 Retribution Points as an immediate action, effectively turning the Revenance into a full resurrection. Additionally, the Servant does not age as long as he enters combat at least once a day.
    So as long as people are attacking allies this guy is completely immune to dying? Interesting. I'm intrigued, but I'm not sure I like how non-interactive that is, especially since even incidental damage to a single ally gives this guy 2/3rd of the points he needs to stay active forever.

    End the Enemy: The final piece of a Servant's training, the Servant learns how to not just strike down his enemies, but to bring them eternal justice. Whenever a Servant of tenth level slays an evil enemy, he may pay 10 Retribution Points to cast their soul into Hell and disintegrate their body, no matter what protections they may have (such as a lich's phylactery). Additionally, an enemy slain this way cannot be resurrected in any fashion without a Wish or Miracle to cancel this effect, a second to return the body, and a third to actually resurrect.
    Fine, save that this is harder to undo than the Truename Utterance that literally writes someone out of existence. Wish + True Resurrection should be sufficiently punishing.

    --------------------------------

    OVERALL THOUGHTS
    There's some interesting stuff here, certainly. I think there's a major design flaw though: every class feature relies on Retribution. Retribution is gained from having your allies attacked. The class aims to cause people to not attack its allies. So, if the class is working perfectly...the player gets to use none of their fun class features.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Note that this is really good, due to the progression given. Most initiators, Fighters, and Paladins lose effectively nothing by taking this class. Even some melee-focused Divine Casters will gladly eat the 2-level delay in exchange for the huge potential bonuses to attack rolls, damage rolls, and the in-combat resurrection.
    Yeah, I figured martial deserves nicer things than casters in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Second, the Servant will ALREADY have (likely) a full attack bonus (and thus a solid chance to hit already), so this is effectively just a +damage ability unless you have the positioning to land a full attack. Thirdly, the "lose a point when damaged" really only matters up until about level 3 -- once you're gaining 3+ points of Retribution per ally hit, the tiny amount of reduction an attack on you causes is almost not worth it for the enemy.
    I feel like the attack bonus remains relevant in many situations - anything tanky or frontline will usually have enough AC that full BAB will not be enough for 100% hit rate.

    And shoot, I meant to make the decrease scale with level as well. Will fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    I'd also do a clarification pass: there's currently no rule for how many times an enemy's attack can cause Retribution gain. If an attack hits 3 allies for 10 damage each, does that count as ONE time an enemy deals damage to an ally (a single attack), or THREE times (since the single attack hit 3 allies)? There's also no range on the ability, so, as currently written, if someone attacks an ally on the opposite side of the planet you gain an attack bonus. You might also want to cap the gain per round -- this could get INSANE in pitched battle scenarios, for example. Imagine a group of 100 archers and a Servant fighting another group of 100 level 1 mages. Each mage uses Magic Missile, hitting 2 archers. The level 10 Servant gains 1200 Retribution.
    Ah, yeah, a range and a cap would help. And yeah, it's per ally, so hitting five allies with a fireball will pump up the Servant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    In short, I think this ability is rather swingy: it'll probably never be used except when it can completely dictate the flow of the battle. I think I'd prefer to see the healing standardized (1d8 / level, for example) instead of scaling multiplicative on a stat that could be anywhere from 18 to 30.
    I made it Con based to encourage more tanking, so I think I'll keep it Con based. Perhaps curving it or capping it to 3+1/2 level, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    This ability would be significantly balanced by at least stating that the Servant needs to spend the Standard Action that casting Revenance would normally require, or allowing it as a Swift / Immediate action, put limiting it's use to 1/day or 1/encounter, possibly scaling with level.
    Ah, sorry, it was intended to be a Standard action. I think I originally wrote it as an extension of Preserve Life, which is a standard action, but then moved it. Will fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    This seems underwhelming, given that Retribution already gives a damage bonus. Consuming a static damage bonus to get a burst of damage SEEMS nice, but it's not really a particularly fun mechanic, especially when the class has so many ways of dumping excess Retribution anyway.
    Yeah, I didn't want to throw too many nice things in without making the Servant lose Advancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Confusing for the DM -- do we not attack the Servant or not attack the Servant? It's functional, but I'd almost prefer to see the Servant have some active mitigation based on Retribution use, so attacking him at higher levels actually DOES reduce his Retribution by a meaningful amount.
    Hm, good idea. I'll write that up soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    N
    You should put a daily or encounter limit on this: as written, it functions exactly once. A simple "Once a Servant has revived through the use of this ability, he may not benefit from its use again for 24 hours."

    Also note that, as written, you will always die again. If that's intentional, that's fine. If it's not intentional, you probably need to remove the "or runs out of Retribution points" clause: it causes him to die 5 minutes after combat, no matter how many healing spells have been pumped into him.
    Yep, that's the idea. He can only use it exactly once before dying for real, and he dies once out of combat. It's supposed to finish the job, not resurrect you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    So as long as people are attacking allies this guy is completely immune to dying? Interesting. I'm intrigued, but I'm not sure I like how non-interactive that is, especially since even incidental damage to a single ally gives this guy 2/3rd of the points he needs to stay active forever.
    Also yep. Basically, further encouragement to take the Servant down first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Fine, save that this is harder to undo than the Truename Utterance that literally writes someone out of existence. Wish + True Resurrection should be sufficiently punishing.
    Fair enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    OVERALL THOUGHTS
    There's some interesting stuff here, certainly. I think there's a major design flaw though: every class feature relies on Retribution. Retribution is gained from having your allies attacked. The class aims to cause people to not attack its allies. So, if the class is working perfectly...the player gets to use none of their fun class features.
    Yep, that's the idea. It's supposed to allow allies to take more risks since enemies really don't want to attack the Servant. If the class is working perfectly, you made the rest of your party invincible, so that's pretty good for an 8/10ths advancement class still, there are usually ways your allies will get themselves hurt, even if the enemies are focusing you. Then, due to the exponential nature of the Retribution pool, you'll still grab the first few bonuses and maybe one or two emergency ability uses.

    Thanks for the PEACH!
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2015-04-25 at 01:41 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stuck in a bottle.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    I made it Con based to encourage more tanking, so I think I'll keep it Con based. Perhaps curving it or capping it to 3+1/2 level, but still.
    The problem with that is the effectiveness is impossible to predict. There's over a 100% increase in healing between Con 18 and Con 30, and that makes balance really hard.

    Also yep. Basically, further encouragement to take the Servant down first.
    See, that's not encouragement though. It's punishing DMs for doing anything other than playing the sort of game the Servant wants to play. If you don't focus down the Servant basically exclusively you can never kill him or his allies. Every encounter will have the same flow -- either the Servant will fail a save and die instantly, or the fight will be predicable.

    I guess if that's what you want it's fine. I know I personally dislike that sort of non-choice -- it's often better to just put a Knight's Challenge effect that says "you HAVE to attack me first!" than make it appear to actually be a choice, when in reality there isn't usually one.


    Yep, that's the idea. It's supposed to allow allies to take more risks since enemies really don't want to attack the Servant. If the class is working perfectly, you made the rest of your party invincible, so that's pretty good for an 8/10ths advancement class still, there are usually ways your allies will get themselves hurt, even if the enemies are focusing you. Then, due to the exponential nature of the Retribution pool, you'll still grab the first few bonuses and maybe one or two emergency ability uses.
    The bolded part is why his constant self-resurrection ability is, in my mind, poorly implemented. Because if the enemies are dealing ANY damage to ANY of your allies, you're impossible to kill. That's...well, quite frankly, I'd never want to run or play in a game where a player has that sort of durability and completely dictates the flow of every combat encounter without even needing to expend any real abilities.

    The rest is what I'd consider to be poor design: the class's intended function, when it works, means you can't use the abilities of the class. If you're playing a class designed around the fantasy of being a durable, ally-protecting shield, you don't want your only moments of excitement to be when your allies do actually take damage, just because you can now finally do something other than stand around. That's completely contrary to the fantasty, and all sorts of awkward no matter how you spin it: abilities are what players take a class FOR and, since we already established that the best course of action is just to focus down the Servant...well, things get really bizarre.

    To address that issue: I'd really like to see a version that has Retribution as a major mechanic, but also has several abilities that are actually useful the rest of the time: maybe actual taunts instead of soft punishment (the not-killable thing is a major issue), or SOME sort of active ability that rewards the Servant for doing his job, instead of having him be rewarded for people ignoring him.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2015-04-25 at 01:45 PM.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Eh... The whole point is that he doesn't directly tank. If he has anything that forces enemies to hit him, it goes against that. I could make some of the abilities, particularly the healing, non-Retribution based, but still, again, the point of the class is to get stronger when allies are hurt. It's supposed to be "bizarre" - the reason I made the class was because it does something new, not so that it can be Prestige Knight/Crusader

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    The problem with that is the effectiveness is impossible to predict. There's over a 100% increase in healing between Con 18 and Con 30, and that makes balance really hard.
    If it's 3+Con/2, it'll be reduced to 60%, and if it's capped at 3+1/2 Class Level, more than 26 Con doesn't get you anything, but honestly, that's the only ability-score scaling the guy has. I think he deserves that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    See, that's not encouragement though. It's punishing DMs for doing anything other than playing the sort of game the Servant wants to play. If you don't focus down the Servant basically exclusively you can never kill him or his allies. Every encounter will have the same flow -- either the Servant will fail a save and die instantly, or the fight will be predicable.
    Games at level 13+ for me tend to have very short encounters - 4 rounds at most, usually 2-3. If it's a big, final boss, PCs tend to die within a couple rounds, and often have more than one death a round. So it's certainly not useless to attack others.

    Also, if you don't have Revivify on the team, people who die stay dead. Sure, if you were playing D&D as single-encounters, and all you care about is that one battle, it'd be very strong. But obviously, that isn't the case (and Revenance the spell has that problem anyway). And if you do have Revivify, well, your DM has to focus the Cleric/Rogue with UMD anyway, because otherwise death means nothing. I think that's more of a problem with Revivify than with the class.

    Still, I can see your point. I think I'll restrict it to once per encounter, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    The rest is what I'd consider to be poor design: the class's intended function, when it works, means you can't use the abilities of the class. If you're playing a class designed around the fantasy of being a durable, ally-protecting shield, you don't want your only moments of excitement to be when your allies do actually take damage, just because you can now finally do something other than stand around.
    Again, the Servant is not supposed to be a traditional, ally-protecting shield - if he was, it'd just be Prestige Knight. The more I add functionality when tanking, the further it gets from the intended purpose. After all, you criticized the only ability I originally made to be non-retribution for being confusing - "do we not attack the Servant or not attack the Servant?" I could add damage, but that'd be against the idea that it's supposed to be a tank when people are attacking you, and punishing when they are not. I could add debuffs (stuns perhaps)? So, it can't be offensive or defensive, and it can't encourage people to attack someone other than the Servant, but it also can't directly discourage people from attacking someone other than the Servant. See the problem?

    Also, don't forget that the class has 8/10ths progression on everything, so you can still do almost all the paladin-y or fighter-y or cleric-y stuff as before. So, it's not like you have nothing to do.

    Also, remember that before anyone hits your allies, they don't know you're a servant, so you'll probably get at least a +1 or +2 bonus right away.
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2015-04-25 at 05:32 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tsunamiatunzen1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    I still personally like this class. I do acknowledge that this is out of the ordinary, but it's possible to run this character in a game with a little thought on the DM's part. Just think of it as a way to diversify monsters for the DM and give the players a different challenge!
    Spoiler: Imagined Dialogue
    Show
    DM: O.K. you're going to be fighting ninja kobolds.
    Players: *groan* again!?
    DM: Yes, because they're awesome.
    Players: Oh wait, we've got the Servant of Retribution!
    DM: Oh, well hrm... great you killed all the kobolds without dying. Good job. *Thinks*: *Time to pull out my dusty Monster Manual for some new monsters...*

    After all, at the levels that you could begin to even get the Prestige class, there are things out there that can kill/incapacitate your allies without even doing any damage, thus mitigating the abilities of the Servant of Retribution. After all, unless he's a Cleric (in which case this will most likely be a moot point) he will not be able to bring someone back into action from a Medusa's gaze or a paralyzing attack.
    Although, a disintegrate spell negates the Servant's Revenance since there is no body to raise and raise dead (which Revenance essentially copies to an extent) states that there has to be a body.
    I would be interested if you got hit by one of the undead that turns people into undead (vampire for example) but has a timer before you rise, would that cancel Revenance/Raise Dead?
    Plus, a magical disease such as from a mummy (which will be well within the CR rating by the time this is an issue) would put this ability out of commission since he won't have any points to raise with and he can't heal ability damage. Same goes for poisons or Psionic attacks like Egowhip. A monster that has a Death Gaze will also work since Raise Dead/Revenance says that it won't work against Death-effects.
    In all the above cases, healing your ally would do absolutely nothing and you wouldn't have enough, if any, retribution points to begin with in order to patch up your allies.
    Spoiler: Possible 'Common' Scenarios
    Show
    Assassin, lancer, or spellcaster begins combat. They target party spellcaster, deeming them the weakest and easiest target (possibly even recognizing them as a spellcaster) and uses Sneak attack, Spirited Charge with Power attack (It is possible to get the damage here to become very high), or Call Lightning spell to kill spellcaster.
    Spellcaster will typically not have the HP, AC, or saves to stand up to this sudden attack. Spellcaster dies within that round. (I know that's typically not good for player morale, but in view of this being only a 'possible' scenario, waive that fact.)
    At max level, the Servant will gain 5 points per attack against allies. Since there is only 1 attack, there will only be enough to heal about 30 or so hp. Even including the fact that they were sustained by Preserve life, I'm pretty sure the damage could feasibly exceed this limit.


    A simple net or a pit would also likely put this class out of commission since they will almost certainly be some fella lugging around the heaviest armor they can find and their reflex saves are down the drain. It's a little hard to help out your allies when you're trying to climb out of the 10 ft. pit with that armor or running to their aid when you're stuck to the crazy maniac holding the net. Meanwhile, that band of bandits will start turning your allies into pincushions. Granted, you'll gain a ton of Retribution points, but you're not in a position to use them in the invincible manner that is being described.

    The way I see it, the Servant is geared towards making it harder for damage spamming opponents (Single combatant or swarms of them). In order to combat this unique class, you must in turn think in a non-linear way and use your head. There are many ways to negate this guy and render his Servant abilities inert if you simply think a little more on Ability Damage/Drain (which will not be an issue for the Cleric in the high levels that are being described). At the same time, this is not under-powered as it still progresses in the base class, albeit at 8/10th progression.
    Invincibility lies in the defense. The possibility of victory is in the attack.
    - Diamond Sword

    Featured Homebrews:
    (SF) bombs and Hangar Support
    The Forge (Crafting System)
    (SF) Advanced Tactical Interface

    Extended Homebrew Sig

    Dice (feel free to use them!):
    Spoiler
    Show
    [roll]1d20+[/roll]
    [roll]1d6[/roll]
    [rollv]3d6[/rollv]
    [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stuck in a bottle.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Hilarious idea that just came to me:

    A party of four Servant of Retribution: One a Fighter, and three Clerics.

    Be invincible forever.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tsunamiatunzen1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Retributive Tank Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Hilarious idea that just came to me:

    A party of four Servant of Retribution: One a Fighter, and three Clerics.

    Be invincible forever.
    You could do that. But then the DM would just find another way to give you a challenge.

    But yes, any party that had 3 clerics would be quite difficult to defeat... if they could agree to all play Clerics in the first place.
    Adding on this Prestige class just insures their durability. Very handy for a war situation where everyone is getting smacked left and right. Big, mean Servant anyone?
    Last edited by Tsunamiatunzen1; 2015-04-28 at 09:34 AM.
    Invincibility lies in the defense. The possibility of victory is in the attack.
    - Diamond Sword

    Featured Homebrews:
    (SF) bombs and Hangar Support
    The Forge (Crafting System)
    (SF) Advanced Tactical Interface

    Extended Homebrew Sig

    Dice (feel free to use them!):
    Spoiler
    Show
    [roll]1d20+[/roll]
    [roll]1d6[/roll]
    [rollv]3d6[/rollv]
    [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •