[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)

[facelessminion]

I really hate Paizo's decision to keep Sorcerers down by delaying their spells, and then continuing the trend with the Arcanist and Oracle.

I quite agree with the Sorcerer, their decision there was flat out dumb. But the Arcanist kinda deserves it.

[Taveena]

Oh, sure, it's weaker than a straight arcanist, but it still leaves you all the gamebreaking tricks and the ability to wade into melee.

[Extra Anchovies]

Two Mithral Current questions:
Does the counterattack from Calm the Storm deal damage?
Do the extra attacks of opportunity from Ready the Draw stack with those from the Warder's Defensive Focus?

Also, since I'm not sure where to look this up, what are the rules on using strikes/boosts outside of combat? Can they be used every round or do initiators have to take actions to refresh them?

One more question: can a Bushi recover maneuvers when they sheath a weapon as a free action, e.g. if they are in Floating Water Stance, or do they have to spend a move action to get maneuvers back?

[Nyaa]

I mean, while we're asking for stuff, can the Arcanist get some initiation going on to? Last time I checked they were terribly weak.

Jokes aside, clerics and druids (and probably shamans too) have enough Wisdom to have full IL with Hourglass obtained via Martial Training.

[Manly Man]

Riven Hourglass would be a pretty good one, yeah. Either that or Scarlet Throne; since Magi tend to fight one-handed anyways, they'd be able to make good use of the Scarlet Throne Style feats, and the slew of nasty strikes in the discipline combined with Spellstrike means you'd have enough damage output on single attacks that you could afford to actually move around in combat.

...actually I really want to try a Scarlet Throne magus now.

Thrashing Dragon could be pretty good too, methinks, but Scarlet Throne does fit them very well.

Speaking of the Magus, here's something I asked a few pages ago:

...for, say, a Dervish Defender 15/Magus 5, if they were to use the Grace of Blades ability with a spell in their off-hand, would the damage added to their main hand attack when they use just the one weapon be the same damage from the spell, or just do the damage of an unarmed attack?

This has probably been asked before, but I'm unaware of what the answer may be, and so I'd like to get it clarified. I'm coming up with an idea that kind of hinges on it.

[Snowbluff]

I'm beginning to wonder if it'd be worth spending feats on Martial Training for an Arcanist. Counters are strong for such a squishy target, and some stances aren't bad too. Riven hourglass, perhaps?

Since casters are generally screwed out of uses for swift actions, I would suggest a boost or counter or two. I'm partial to Altered Penumbra from Veiled Moon.

[Andreaz]

Also stick to the extraordinary disciplines, the supernatural ones don't add much over them, don't add anything you don't get as a caster and are shut down by AMF. At least with a couple Ex abilities you'll be able to deny the enemy anywhere.

[Snowbluff]

What's a good maneuver for getting out of a grapple and/or AMF that's Ex?

[Elricaltovilla]

Two Mithral Current questions:
Does the counterattack from Calm the Storm deal damage?
Do the extra attacks of opportunity from Ready the Draw stack with those from the Warder's Defensive Focus?

1. Yes
2. Probably. One gives you Combat Reflexes (INT) the other gives you (benefits of) Combat Reflexes (INT). You can't take the same feat twice without special exception, but there's no specific ruling I'm aware of that says you can't stack "benefit of" and "actual feat" together. I'm also curious if the "no stat bonus to thing twice" would apply or not, I'm honestly not sure.

Also, since I'm not sure where to look this up, what are the rules on using strikes/boosts outside of combat? Can they be used every round or do initiators have to take actions to refresh them?

You still have to spend actions to recover them outside of combat, but they are useable outside combat. So basically you can use it every other round.

One more question: can a Bushi recover maneuvers when they sheath a weapon as a free action, e.g. if they are in Floating Water Stance, or do they have to spend a move action to get maneuvers back?

I'm sorry, but I've already been asked this question in May. You'll have to wait until June to ask it again.

Yes, Bushi can recover maneuvers as a free action. No, you cannot recover a maneuver in the same round it's used in. There's no such thing as floating water stance though.

[NineThePuma]

The Hunter is very heavily focused on A) the animal companion and B) using teamwork feats. Removing either of those would hurt the core identity and strength of the class, and removing the side features would not be enough of a nerf. The only change that I could see would be trading out casting á la Rubato, but that's not an appealing trade because of all the buffs for your companion that you miss out on.

As someone who advocated Ambush Predator (I'm aware that's not the name of the archetype, but it sounds better to me, especially since Hunter is an actual class) as a Hunter Archetype instead of a Ranger one, the fact that Animal Focus rewards the Hunter for killing off their animal companion and all of the "best" builds for Hunter at the moment (that I've seen) being solo characters, Ambush Predator would, by definition of having an awesome animal companion who can contribute well, be a change of pace.

I'm going to go against the grain and say the archetype that helps you get kung-fu bears is a good archetype, and a generic ranger initiator archetype sounds bad and boring in comparison.

If he really wanted it I'd probably let a player take Martial Training feats with his Ranger bonus feats, but I'd probably call him boring.

The problem is not that kung-fu bears is a bad archetype. It's that the archetype locks out a significant portion of players from playing initiating rangers. I personally am unlikely to ever play an Ambush Predator because I typically (in 3.5) trade out animal companion or use my Hunter's Bond with my party. I absolutely loathe the animal companion partially because it's typically useless in my experience, partially because it's more book keeping, and partially because any time an animal companion isn't useless it completely and utterly dominates the martials in terms of contribution.

Mind, I'm still going to buy the book, but I'm going to be asking every GM if I can just trade spells for initiating (because man, I really don't like casting in general) and screw the companion stuff, because I absolutely do not enjoy companions.

[Doomeye56]

Not trying to start another argument over this but "locks out a significant portion." Is conjecture, unless you can provide legitimate stats.

[Nihilarian]

The problem is not that kung-fu bears is a bad archetype. It's that the archetype locks out a significant portion of players from playing initiating rangers.

It locks exactly 0 people out of the concept of a Martial Adept Ranger. That's what Martial Training is for.

[NineThePuma]

It locks exactly 0 people out of the concept of a Martial Adept Ranger. That's what Martial Training is for.

You know, every time someone points at martial training, it makes me want to stab them. Martial training is an incredibly poor option: for the cost of 6 feats (which is admittedly less impactful in pathfinder where you get 10 over the course of 20 levels rather than 7) you get a handful of maneuvers two levels late with a much reduced maneuver advancement progression, from a single discipline, with a recovery method on par with Swordsage's unless you invest another feat, which still restricts you severely.

In order to select a 6th level maneuver at 13th level (which is when you can take Martial Training VI) you have to have an inititating modifier of +5, which isn't necessarily a problem, except in cases where you're adding to your MAD with the discipline you want. For example, a Ranger who wants to use Golden Lion and be a party leader, forming a Hunter's Bond with the party, is adding Cha to the list of ability scores that he needs on top of Str/Dex, Con, and Wis. A barbarian who wants to pick up Primal Fury and be All The Rage is adding Wis to his scores (which is less problematic from my understanding). A paladin who wants to pick up Silver Crane is suddenly adding Wis as well as Cha. Monk's MADness isn't worth bringing up.

So they're either getting maneuvers 2 levels late, massively increasing their MAD, and hitting a proverbial glass ceiling and never actually being worth the investment (admittedly, Riven Hourglass is probably worth the investment, but no discipline in PoW1 would be worth grabbing all 6 feats, imho) or they're holding off on getting the maneuvers at anything resembling a decent pace and are instead having to pick them up way later than they're able to contribute, especially since there are very few options for low level maneuvers that still contribute late game.


So, yeah, Martial Training is a trap option and going "but martial training exists, therefore you are not locked out" is like saying "I can take points in UMD and use wands, therefore I am a spellcaster".

[Nihilarian]

Martial Training is perfectly serviceable option if you don't have access to or don't like other options available. What you get for one feat is absolutely worth 1 feat, and the benefits get better as you go up the chain. For that matter, as a ranger you have less to worry about than almost any non-initiator class, since you get a bunch of free feats (without prerequisites!) to form the backbone of your fighting style.

Also, please don't stab me.

[ErrantX]

Consider your words records and marked, Nine. We see how passionately you feel about this and we're not blind to that. We're just going in a different direction.

There is always future releases. We like the Ambush Hunter (we're sticking with Ambush Hunter, btw) the way it is and we feel that it suits what we wanted from an initial ranger archetype. As you've stated, the animal companion is sometimes a liability and with an initiating companion, it gives the critter a few more ways to stand up for itself. We are shoring up a weakness there. That said - there is nothing at all stopping us from creating more ranger archetypes for Book 3 or whatever else is coming down the line. We've no intention of stopping after two books with Path of War.

That said, we're about done with the archetype phase of this book - we've got a few more things to iron out with Zealot's archetype with its revision that we're expecting any day now, and other than fine tuning those, we've got a few more psionic things to work out (dread, marksman, psychic warrior paths and blade skills, etc) but we're done with archetypes and moving on. We are still accepting ideas for gambits, stalker arts, blade skills, and psychic warrior paths (PM me these - I'm spending too much time hunting through these threads because they move so fast), but we're moving on to prestige classes and the supplemental stuff of finishing up traditions, favored class bonuses, and the stuff we put off til later.

-X

[tekevil]

Also once a lot of classes trade out their signature abilities they just become really samey.

I think you'd be better off asking for or submitting a Stalker/Warlord archetype than a new Ranger one.

Also Kaidinah submitted a Marksman archetype that I liked, have you seen it Errantx?

[Elricaltovilla]

Tek, you pointed out there were still some wording issues with the Knight Disciple right? Aura of Justice and the Capstone, I think. Was there anything else? I want to wrap up that archetype so I can get back to work on PrCs.

[Nihilarian]

Have you already decided on the Mithral Current focused PrC?

[squiggit]

Shame that archetypes are done, was really hoping we'd get another fully randomized mystic archetype (and/or cha archetype) before this ended.

Also once a lot of classes trade out their signature abilities they just become really samey.

I don't think anyone really talked about killing a class' signature abilities though, did they?

That said, yeah, a stalker can do the whole martial ranger thing pretty easily and an archetype wouldn't require you to add much to the stalker.

[tekevil]

Can't do much right now because phone posting, but it was within the last 2-3 pages and someone else posted right above me stuff they found.

With Paizo classes most of their signature abilities are either spells or DPR boosts AKA the things most likely to get traded out in a Path of War archetype.

My post also had feedback on Silver Fist Monk.

[NineThePuma]

Consider your words records and marked, Nine.

I'm not even the one who brought Ambush Predator up this time. I'm just addressing the "if you take the class that has a focus on animal companion and give it initiating, you're going to kill the class" which is patently false since, you know, the class is currently optimized best by murdering the animal companion.

If I were going to bring up old debate topics, I'd be bringing up Throne being reserved for the Warlord, particularly on the premise that by making it reserved to Warlord you are saying that no other class you make will ever have the option of Einhander shenanigans.

That said, yeah, a stalker can do the whole martial ranger thing pretty easily and an archetype wouldn't require you to add much to the stalker.

Hell, a naturey stalker is easily doable, between the skill list and Animal Companion being a feat you can take.

[Elricaltovilla]

Have you already decided on the Mithral Current focused PrC?

Yes. SPAAAAAAAACEEEE!!!

[Gün]

Yes. SPAAAAAAAACEEEE!!!

Does this prc have access to some form of old Mithral Current Level 9 Maneuver. It was not really that strong. But damn it was really cool.

[Elricaltovilla]

Does this prc have access to some form of old Mithral Current Level 9 Maneuver. It was not really that strong. But damn it was really cool.

All I said was I've decided on the Mithral Current focused PrC. If it comes, you'll see it then.

[NineThePuma]

I don't feel nice pointing this out, but this also needs replacing

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...of-Justice-Su-

Also I like the new Monk of the Silver Fist's mark, but it's too easy to avoid the AoO.

Maybe allow them to move up to their Fast Movement before making the AoO?

Is this the Tekevil quote we're looking for?

[Nyaa]

dread, marksman, psychic warrior paths and blade skills, etc

I hope there is initiating Aegis hiding in that "etc" :drool:

[Seerow]

I am building a Privateer NPC and have a random question: Can you dual wield a ranged and melee weapon at the same time? And if so, do the thrashing dragon maneuvers support this? I am not seeing anything that says you cannot, so I am leaning towards yes, but want to make sure because PF is full of little rules catches hidden in obscure places I would not have thought to look.

[ANSeranov]

I hope there is initiating Aegis hiding in that "etc" :drool:

Do very much want. I actually don't think I'd be able to play anything else if I could be an Initiating Aegis. Would also be much better for an Initiating Metaforge build (which I tried to build and sadly just didn't have enough oomph with only 3 levels of War Soul Soulknife before level 10).

[squiggit]

I am building a Privateer NPC and have a random question: Can you dual wield a ranged and melee weapon at the same time? And if so, do the thrashing dragon maneuvers support this? I am not seeing anything that says you cannot, so I am leaning towards yes, but want to make sure because PF is full of little rules catches hidden in obscure places I would not have thought to look.

You can dual wield like that. There's even a feat to help facilitate it and two archetypes (Buccaneer gunslinger and Picaroon swashbuckler) based around it.


As for whether it works with Thrashing Dragon... I'm conflicted: On the one hand most TD strikes specify that they're melee range. On the other, most of those same strikes don't actually specify melee weapon. Which might mean pistols/hand crossbows work if you're adjacent?

[Mehangel]

I know this was covered somewhere in earlier threads, but what was the reasoning for not having Martial Training feats progress all the way to IX? The reason I ask, is if someone is willing to invest the feats, why not allow them the opportunity to go all the way?

Also I had a thought, what are DSP's thoughts on having Level 0 Boost/Counter Maneuvers that can be used At-Will, probably only two or three per discipline. Some examples may include:

Black Seraph
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on the Next Intimidate check you make this round.
- (Boost) Swift Action, On your next successful hit, instead of dealing regular damage deal Bleed 1.

Broken Blade
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on the Next Sunder attempt you make this round.
- (Boost) Move Action, Gain the benefits of the improved unarmed strike or the Catch Off-Guard feat for one round.

Golden Lion
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on the next Diplomacy check you make this round.
- (Boost) Swift Action, You may take 5 on your next Diplomacy check you make this round and may do so even under duress.

Iron Tortoise
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Bluff check you make this round.
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain the benefits of the Improved Feint feat for one round.

Primal Flurry
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Survival check you make this round.
- (Boost) Move Action, Gain the benefits of the Improved Dirty Trick feat for one round.

Scarlet Throne
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Sense Motive check you make this round.
- (Boost) Move Action, Gain the benefits of the Combat Expertise feat for one round.

Silver Crane
- (Boost) Swift Action, Your next successful attack causes your weapon to glow as a candle for one round.
- (Boost) Move Action, Stabilize an adjacent target as if you had made a DC 15 Heal check.

Solar Wind
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Perception check.
- (Boost) Move Action, Gain the benefits of the Point Blank Shot feat for one round.

Steal Serpent
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Heal check.
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain the benefits of the Run feat for one round.

Thrashing Dragon
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Acrobatics check.
- (Boost) Move Action, Gain the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for one round.

Veiled Moon
- (Boost) Swift Action, Gain a +2 Bonus on your next Stealth check.
- (Boost) Swift Action, Your weapon is considered magical for the purposes of damaging incorporeal targets for one round.