Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 168
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    So, as I've mentioned before I'm part of a 3.5e game that's been going for about two years now, and we've decided to switch to 5e rules while keeping as much of the plot as possible. In places, this means homebrewing some classes. As part of that, I've volunteered to attempt a 5e Binder. As one of 3.5's more complex classes, this could be a challenge: keep the flavour and style of the Binder, but keep the mechanics in line with 5e's streamlined approach.

    This is far from finished, but I've decided to post it to get some early feedback.

    So, the class:

    Binder
    Binders are students of an ancient and secret lore that allows them to call to entities that live beyond the known planes, in the spaces between the worlds. Through a combination of forgotten magics and complex bargains, they persuade or compel these beings to serve them - though not always without price.

    Beyond Reality
    A binder learns to cast their mind into the void between the planes, and to search the fractal wilderness there for beings that will answer their call. These beings are born from the chaos outside of reality, from the last echoes of the world's creation, and from energies that leak out of the planes. Their personalities, abilities and motivations vary wildly depending on their origin, ranging from reasonable and relatable to deeply inscrutable.

    A Bargain Sealed
    In order to obtain the services of a vestige, a binder must strike a deal with that vestige, and use their magic to make the terms of the agreement totally binding. Knowing this, the vestiges will often seek to outwit the binder, adding loopholes and ambiguity into the terms of the bargain, making every deal a grave risk for the binder.

    Class Features
    As a binder, you gain the following class features:

    Hit Points
    Hit Dice: 1d8 per binder level
    Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
    Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per binder level after 1st

    Proficiencies
    Armour:Light armour
    Weapons: Simple weapons
    Tools: None
    Saving Throws: Charisma, Wisdom

    Equipment
    You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

    • (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
    • (a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus
    • (a) a scholar’s pack or (b) a dungeoneer’s pack
    • Leather armour, any simple weapon, and two daggers

    Level Proficiency Bonus Features Vestiges Vestige Level
    1st +2 Summon Vestige 1 1
    2nd +2 Suppress Sign 1 1
    3rd +2 Soul Guardian 1 2
    4th +2 Ability Score Improvement 1 2
    5th +3 The Power Within (1) 2 3
    6th +3 Trusted Vestige (1) 2 3
    7th +3 2 4
    8th +3 Ability Score Improvement 2 4
    9th +4 Slippery Mind 3 4
    10th +4 The Power Within (2) 3 5
    11th +4 Trusted Vestige (2) 3 5
    12th +4 Ability Score Improvement 3 6
    13th +5 4 6
    14th +5 The Power Within (3) 4 7
    15th +5 Trusted Vestige(3) 4 7
    16th +5 Ability Score Improvement 4 8
    17th +6 5 8
    18th +6 The Power Within(4) 5 9
    19th +6 Trusted Vestige (4) 5 9
    20th +6 [capstone] 5 9

    Summon Vestige
    In your studies, you have uncovered the means to pierce the very fabric of the planes and call to what lives beyond. At 1st level, you learn how to contact a vestige and bind it in a magical agreement. At first level, you can bind one vestige. At higher levels, the number of vestiges you can bind simultaneously increases, as shown in the Vestiges column of the binder table. In addition, at any one time, you can bind vestiges whose combined level is equal to no more than your binder level.

    Once per day, in a ritual taking 1 minute per vestige to be summoned, you draw the unique seal of the vestiges you wish to contact on a surface, each forming an image at least 5 feet across, and speak the name and title of each vestige in turn. When their name is spoken, each vestige manifests as a harmless illusion above their seal, and you must make a charisma check against the vestige's pact DC. If you succeed, you convince the vestige to co-operate, and you make a good pact. You gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours. If you fail the check, the vestige is unwilling and will attempt to subvert the bargain, and you have made a poor pact. You gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours, but you also find that the vestige begins to affect your personality and actions while the pact is in effect.

    Renegotiation
    Once per day when you take a short rest, you can choose to perform a the ritual of binding a second time to renegotiate any or all of the bargains you have made. This allows you to expel a bound vestige early, and bind another. When you choose to renegotiate in this way, you can expel and bind vestiges whose combined level is no more than half your binder level.

    For example, as a 12th-level binder, you might choose to expel one 4th-level vestige (4 points) and bind a 2nd-level vestige in its place (2 points).

    Suppress Sign
    Starting at second level, your control of the vestiges you summon increases. When you make a good pact, you can choose to suppress the physical sign of that pact. As a free action, you can suppress or restore the physical sign of any pact currently in effect. If you make a poor pact, that pact's sign cannot be suppressed.

    Soul Guardian
    At 3rd level, the vestiges you bind will help you to guard your mind. As long as you have a vestige bound, you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, and the duration of any fear effects acting on you is halved.

    Trusted Vestige
    Starting at 6th level, you begin to form a stronger relationship with a particular vestige. This vestige will respond more readily to your summons, and is more likely to obey without attempting to subvert the bargain. Choose one vestige that you have previously summoned and remained bound to for a continuous period of no less than 24 hours. You have advantage on the binding check to make a good pact with this vestige. In addition, you gain access to this vestige's special ability. You can choose additional trusted vestiges at 11th, 15th and 20th level. You cannot choose the same vestige twice, and your trusted vestiges cannot be changed once chosen.

    Slippery Mind

    At 9th level, your experiences in sharing your mind with summoned vestiges teach you how to maintain control of your thoughts. You have advantage on saving throws against all mind control effects. In addition, when you succeed on a save against mind control, or a mind control effect affecting you ends, you gain immunity against all mind control effects for a length of time equal to the effect's duration.

    Pact Augmentations
    At 5th level, you begin to learn additional ways to allow the power of your bound vestiges to express itself. You may choose one augmentation from the list at the end of the class description. This augmentation is active as long as you have a vestige bound. At 10th, 14th and 18th level you can choose additional effects from this list. You may choose the same augmentation twice, and the effects stack (in the case of Energy Resistance, you must choose a different energy type). Additionally, when you choose a new augmentation, you can choose one of the augmentations you have and replace it with another that you could gain at that level.

    Augmentations are powered by the vestiges you have bound. You must have one vestige bound for each active augmentation. For example, at 18th level, to have four augmentations active you must have four vestiges bound. You can choose which augmentations become active when you perform the ritual of binding, at which point they are fixed until you next perform the ritual. If a pact expiring or a vestige being expelled leaves you with more augmentations than bound vestiges, you can choose which augmentations end, and they end immediately.

    Armour of the Void
    You gain +1 to AC while not wearing armour.

    Born of Chaos
    You have advantage on all initiative rolls.

    Elemental Resistance
    You gain resistance to one energy type: acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic.

    Immortal Essence
    Your Hit Point maximum and current Hit Point total increase by 5.

    Otherworldly Sight
    You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet.

    Shared Consciousness
    You are immune to magical sleep effects. In addition, when any effect would render you unconscious, you can make a DC 15 Constitution save to avoid it.

    Unreal Apparition
    You can cast *minor illusion* at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
    Here's the thinking behind the design:

    • Vestige slots/Vestige levels/Binding points is roughly analogous to spell slots/spell level/sorcery points, so it's got precedent in existing classes
    • It takes points to expel vestiges as well as bind them, meaning if you bind the max in the morning, you'll be less powerful after you renegotiate - you sacrifice power for versatility
    • If you max out, it is possible to get two 9th-level spells per day, which nobody else gets... but in order to do that, your entire spellcasting capability besides those to will consist of one 2nd-level spell per day, two 4th-level spells and one 2nd-level spell per short rest, and three cantrips. Barely anything at the levels we're talking about (17+).

    I'm really not sure on the wording of some of it (particularly the actual ritual of binding) but I think it gets the basics across. As you can see from the table, I'm planning to rescale 3.5's 8 levels of vestige into 9 and give Binders 5 vestiges instead of 4, because I think it's silly that while basically everything else happens in 5s and 9s (eg. maximum spell levels) , Binders get 4 and 8. I'm currently looking at the vestiges themselves; so far I've decided to standardise them a little, as follows:

    Vestige Template

    Name (obvious)
    Title (for flavour; used when binding)
    Seal (for flavour)
    Manifestation (for flavour)

    2 passive abilities, chosen from:
    • Languages
    • Weapon & armour proficiencies
    • Tool proficiencies
    • Skill proficiencies
    • Racial features (eg. tiefling's Darkvision, dwarf's Stonecunning)
    • (for higher-level vestiges)1st-level class features (eg. fighter's Fighting Style)

    1 at-will ability, chosen from:
    • Cantrips
    • Class features available to characters of the vestige's level (eg. rogue's Sneak Attack)

    1 once-per-short-rest feature, providing a spell of half the vestige's level (or equivalent power)

    1 once-per-long-rest feature, providing a spell of the vestige's level (or equivalent power)
    I'm not yet sure how well all the vestiges will fit to that template, but most 3.5e vestiges have 4 or 5 abilities, and so far most of the ones I've looked at do work, so early indications are good.

    Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated; this class has a way to go yet.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-05-20 at 07:42 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks to me like at level 20 you can: bind a trusted 9th level vestige for 5 pts, bind another 9th level vestige for 9 pts, bind a trusted 7th level vestige for 4 pts, and bind a trusted 4th level vestige for 2 pts. Then blow all their short- and long-rest abilities, and renegotiate, binding two 9th level vestiges and a trusted 3rd level vestige. You get 4 level-9 spells, 1 level-7 spell, 5 level-4 spells, 2 level-3 spells, 1 level-2 spell and 1 level-1 spell. Plus all their other abilities.

    I think that's more than you intended, and probably more than should be allowed. I'm not even sure it's the best set of spell slots possible, though it does give you the most level-9 slots. It's the combination of renegotiation and trusted vestiges that causes problems.

    My suggestion would be to model the class along the lines of the Warlock. Limit the level of vestiges to 5, and have the level increase at the rate of the levels of Warlock spell slots. Have the number of vestiges bound increase at the rate of the number of Warlock spell slots. Let each vestige provide one spell slot of its own level per short rest to cast any spell from a short list specific to the vestige. Then the class gets as many slots and of the same level as the Warlock, but the choice of vestige still matters. You can also let vestiges give cantrips and other benefits that correspond in power to Warlock invocations.

    I would make favoured vestiges offer better benefits (and keep the advantage on rolls to avoid a bad pact; I really like the bad pact idea!), rather than allow more vestiges to be bound. I would limit renegotiation to swapping out one vestige whose spell slot hasn't been used yet, and only allow that once per day.

    How does that sound? (Probably like a Warlock clone, I suppose. The flavour stays intact, though, right?)

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Argh, yeah, I missed that combo. The trusted vestige part is new and I hadn't re-evaluated the numbers with it in mind. That's definitely too much.

    The issue with matching the warlock progression is that warlock spell slots max out at 5, whereas there are 9 levels of vestige. That said, warlocks gain the next level of slot every 2 levels, which is the same as wizards and sorcerers - they just cap out sooner. By that measure, this already does increase vestige level at the same rate as warlocks. Warlocks go up to 4 slots, so I suppose I could use the same progression as that for the number of vestiges bound, which puts it back to a maximum of 4 as it was in 3.5e.

    I was considering giving each vestige an ability that you only gain access to if it's one of your trusted vestiges, which might be a good alternative to the reduction in binding cost. With costs fixed like that, it goes back to a maximum of 9+9+2, and now I think about it I realise you can renegotiate and swap out one of the 9th-level vestiges to get a third 9th-level spell which is probably too much again. I'll have to find a way around that. I could half the number of points, making it more like the wizard's Arcane Recovery feature. That lets me drop the concept of binding points and just say that you can only bind your level worth of vestiges, and you can renegotiate half your level once per day. Under that system, a 20th-level binder maxes out with 9+9+2+1 (bind 9+9+2, expel 9, bind 2), or 6+6+6+4+2 (bind 6+6+6+2, expel 6, bind 4), which are much more reasonable power levels.

    Actually, that sounds about right. I'll make that change and see how it looks.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    The issue with matching the warlock progression is that warlock spell slots max out at 5, whereas there are 9 levels of vestige.
    OK, what I was trying to suggest was to have the vestige levels only go up to 5 to match the Warlock spell slot progression exactly. Or let them go up to 10 and only have them offer slots of half their level. Sorry if that didn't come across.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Under that system, a 20th-level binder maxes out with 9+9+2+1 (bind 9+9+2, expel 9, bind 2), or 6+6+6+4+2 (bind 6+6+6+2, expel 6, bind 4), which are much more reasonable power levels.
    Couldn't you bind 9+9+2, then renegotiate the 2 in favour of an 8? In fact, you could first bind 9+9+1, selling yourself short by 1, then renegotiate the 1 and gain another 9.

    That's more on the right track, though, if you don't want to go the Warlock route. I have to admit that this method would make planning your day much more interesting than any other class has it because there are so many choices involved in picking vestiges. But it makes it harder to balance for the same reasons.

    You could also limit the number of vestiges per level a binder can have access to. E.g. they might only ever learn of the existence of a single level 9 vestige, but they could know of many level 1 vestiges. That would stop them ever getting two level 9 spells in a day. And you could keep the lower level vestiges relevant by giving them niche benefits, like water breathing or the ability to speak Draconian, which could come up on the odd adventuring day, so knowing lots of them would remain useful.

    Edit: I should make it clear, in case the nitpicking about numbers suggests otherwise, that I think the class has the potential to be really fun, especially if you do a really good job on the individual vestiges.
    Last edited by weaseldust; 2015-04-29 at 07:39 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by weaseldust View Post
    OK, what I was trying to suggest was to have the vestige levels only go up to 5 to match the Warlock spell slot progression exactly. Or let them go up to 10 and only have them offer slots of half their level. Sorry if that didn't come across.
    Ah, I see. I kinda like the idea of having 9 levels of vestige; in 3.5e there were 8, and there are nearly twice as many vestiges in levels 4 and 6 as the other levels, so it'd be easier to shuffle 8 levels out into 9 than it would be to condense down to 5. Plus, it makes balancing the vestiges easier because I can scale them to match the equivalent spell level in terms of power.

    Couldn't you bind 9+9+2, then renegotiate the 2 in favour of an 8? In fact, you could first bind 9+9+1, selling yourself short by 1, then renegotiate the 1 and gain another 9.
    You're missing the limit that you can't bind more than your level worth of vestiges. As a 20th-level binder, if you bind 9+9+2 = 20, then expel the 2, you have the potential to renegotiate 8 levels worth of vestige, but you only have space for 2 levels before you hit that cap.

    I have to admit that this method would make planning your day much more interesting than any other class has it because there are so many choices involved in picking vestiges. But it makes it harder to balance for the same reasons.
    That's what I'm aiming for - remember, I'm building this specifically because our party are converting to 5e and we have a binder; I've been discussing with the guy who plays that binder, and that's one of the main things he likes about the class, so I'm doing my best to carry that over. The balancing is going to be tricky, which is why I plan to standardise the vestiges to all fit that template. Having them all balanced against a common yardstick saves having to balance all the combinations of vestiges against each other (although I'll still be doing a quick pass to check for obvious power combos).

    You could also limit the number of vestiges per level a binder can have access to. E.g. they might only ever learn of the existence of a single level 9 vestige, but they could know of many level 1 vestiges. That would stop them ever getting two level 9 spells in a day. And you could keep the lower level vestiges relevant by giving them niche benefits, like water breathing or the ability to speak Draconian, which could come up on the odd adventuring day, so knowing lots of them would remain useful.
    Both great ideas, and both part of the plan. Some of the 3.5e vestiges support this brilliantly (off the top of my head, I remember there's a 4th-level that gives Find Steed, and there's a 1st-level that gives dwarf Stonecunning, etc) so the idea of keeping lower-level vestiges for niche benefits is spot on. As for the availability, that's partly why I'm keeping 3.5e's name/title/seal idea - even knowing a vestige's name isn't enough; you need to find and learn its seal so you can draw it during the ritual. This allows the DM to limit the availability of vestiges, and opens up some plot hooks for quests to find the seal of some powerful vestige.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-04-30 at 02:26 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mr.Moron's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Just a couple 1st-pass basics:
    • No ability score increases
    • 4th & 19th are 100% dead levels.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Ability score increases will come; just haven't listed them yet. I'll match levels with the other casters for those, which will give 4th level something. Good catch on 19th, though... I'll have to add something there. That said, every level gained is an increase to the combined total of vestiges you can bind, so at 19th you've gone from 9+9 to 9+9+1... probably not quite enough to make 19th interesting, but it's something.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-04-30 at 06:54 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Ah, I see. I kinda like the idea of having 9 levels of vestige; in 3.5e there were 8, and there are nearly twice as many vestiges in levels 4 and 6 as the other levels, so it'd be easier to shuffle 8 levels out into 9 than it would be to condense down to 5. Plus, it makes balancing the vestiges easier because I can scale them to match the equivalent spell level in terms of power.
    That's fair enough if you're set on porting across all (or most of) the 3.5e vestiges. It sounds like hard work to me, but I look forward to seeing how it turns out.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    You're missing the limit that you can't bind more than your level worth of vestiges. As a 20th-level binder, if you bind 9+9+2 = 20, then expel the 2, you have the potential to renegotiate 8 levels worth of vestige, but you only have space for 2 levels before you hit that cap.
    OK, so the cap is on the level of vestiges you can have bound at any time, not on the level of vestiges you can bind in the morning. I can't see any problems with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    That's what I'm aiming for - remember, I'm building this specifically because our party are converting to 5e and we have a binder; I've been discussing with the guy who plays that binder, and that's one of the main things he likes about the class, so I'm doing my best to carry that over.
    I've never played one, so I'm kind of curious as to what effect it has on the character and party to be able to bind 9+9+2 one morning and 5+5+5+5 the next. It's very different from how all other classes work, much more variable, but that's part of the appeal of the class, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Some of the 3.5e vestiges support this brilliantly (off the top of my head, I remember there's a 4th-level that gives Find Steed, and there's a 1st-level that gives dwarf Stonecunning, etc) so the idea of keeping lower-level vestiges for niche benefits is spot on. As for the availability, that's partly why I'm keeping 3.5e's name/title/seal idea - even knowing a vestige's name isn't enough; you need to find and learn its seal so you can draw it during the ritual. This allows the DM to limit the availability of vestiges, and opens up some plot hooks for quests to find the seal of some powerful vestige.
    It sounds like you have this all worked out. I hope it comes together for you and satisfies your player, but the signs are good.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Thanks! I do plan to convert the full list of 3.5 vestiges (yes, all 46 of them) but I'll be prioritising the half-dozen that our binder favours currently, followed by the two or three he's thinking of trying out when he next gains a level. That should be enough to cover the next few months of our game, during which time I can do the rest. I'll also be adding a homebrew vestige of my own to tie in with a certain piece of our game's plot, because why not. Yes, it's a fair bit of work, but I don't sleep much and I find this sort of thing fun, so it'll keep me out of trouble for a few weeks ;)
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-04-30 at 09:13 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Good catch on 19th, though... I'll have to add something there. .
    The last ability score increase always comes on 19th level. What's actually missing is a proper capstone; personally I wouldn't consider an incremental improvement to something they've been getting since 6th level to really work. If you don't want to give much power perhaps grant the ability to not need a check to one of the trusted vestiges, or maybe remove the requirement entirely for them.
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2015-04-30 at 09:19 AM.
    There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Agreed. Some things I haven't covered yet:
    • The 3.5e binder's extra table of buffs. For those who aren't familiar with that class, there was a table containing things like DR 1/-, +5 hit points, energy resistance 5 to one type, etc. and every few levels you could pick anything off that table, and have that buff as long as you had a vestige bound. You could even pick the same one multiple times and have them stack.
    • The mental abilities. 3.5e binders had various mind effects due to the fact they had other minds sharing space with them, so they gained things like resistance to charm and fear, immunity to mind control, that sort of thing.

    One of these will probably go where I have the [additional feature] markers (probably the former), so I can always find something suitable from these abilities to form a nice capstone. Suggestions welcome, either along those lines or something new.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-04-30 at 11:04 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Canada

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    pretty neat, looking forward to seeing more

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Ah, a binder class for 5th edition - just what the doctor ordered!
    To be frank, I also imagined, at first glance, that there might be some connection with the warlock, which also now claims it's name under "pact magic", and executes it nicely, but a warlock certainly can't play to the same dynamic expectations the binder has.
    Now some thoughts:
    • saving throw proficiencies: I would imagine a charisma save proficiency might be thematically appropriate, given it implying a resistance to involuntary possession. Not sure about the second save.
    • Binding check: to make it feel more 5e, consider just labeling it a charisma check to form a pact, likely adding your proficiency bonus. With a streamlined check similar to all the other rolls, you can make easier expectations/estimations of what numbers you are likely to work with at any given level, and it let's you work with numbers familiar to the system when calculating DCs for your vestiges.
    • subclasses - one of my favorite things about classes in 5e, is this built-in mechanic all classes have, that makes two members of the same class vastly distinct from each other. It could be done in multiple ways: you could use it make a place for the pact augmentation and/or soul binding Abilities and protections, and anything else you might find reasonable, then maybe decorate it with a couple of " ribbons " (as the D&D R&D team call them, see: unearthed arcana column) and we're good. Alternatively, you can use it to ingrain 3.5 PrC concepts into the class (like the Anima Mage who exploits vestiges/bends pacts for more power, or the Knight of Sacred Seal who gets more fighting capabilities while remaining bound to a favored vestige, etc.) ... Just ideas, of course.
    • I'd be wary of making the binder a copycat of other classes (see: class feature abilities vestiges give) like in the past. It was cool in 3.5, but it's a difficult balancing act to keep it relevant, yet not unbalanced. Especially when dealing with flagship class abilities like the rogue's SA, or a bard's inspiration, which are vital to those classes being unique. I would advise to steer clear of iconic class features, and to be careful whilst handling scaling ones, as a high level binder gets up to five of them. Ideally, the class features emulated would not wind up more powerful than their alternative options


    Those are my 2d6+3 cents. Thread subscribed, I'd like to see how you complete this!
    PZ.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-06 at 07:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    For vestiges, why not just try and adapt the old ones (from ToM, Dragon, etc) and possibly some of the custom ones from here, the nigh-legendary "Let's Make Some New Vestiges" thread from the old Wizard boards; it's lived through three forums and I still hear about it.

    For subclasses why not just adapt the old prestige classes? Anima Mage would make a good subclass. Don't give too many though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Binding check: to make it feel more 5e, consider just labeling it a charisma check to form a pact, likely adding your proficiency bonus. With a streamlined check similar to all the other rolls, you can make easier expectations/estimations of what numbers you are likely to work with at any given level, and it let's you work with numbers familiar to the system when calculating DCs for your vestiges.
    Actually, it's currently calculated exactly the same as a spell attack: 1d20 + charisma + proficiency... which is exactly the same as a charisma check. I'll change the wording.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    subclasses - one of my favorite things about classes in 5e, is this built-in mechanic all classes have, that makes two members of the same class vastly distinct from each other. It could be done in multiple ways: you could use it make a place for the pact augmentation and/or soul binding Abilities and protections, and anything else you might find reasonable, then maybe decorate it with a couple of " ribbons " (as the D&D R&D team call them, see: unearthed arcana column) and we're good. Alternatively, you can use it to ingrain 3.5 PrC concepts into the class (like the Anima Mage who exploits vestiges/bends pacts for more power, or the Knight of Sacred Seal who gets more fighting capabilities while remaining bound to a favored vestige, etc.) ... Just ideas, of course.
    The crazy thing about binders is that just binding a different set of vestiges already makes you very different. I'm keeping some notes in the margin on this one, which I'll be providing to the DM who runs the game this will be used in, and one of the key notes is that a binder needs to discover the name, formal title, and seal of a vestige, so a DM can limit access to vestiges by requiring the players to go on a quest to find those details, which are likely to be lost or closely-guarded knowledge (especially for the higher-level vestiges). This helps to get binders diverging a little, and then there's the choice of Trusted Vestiges, which helps too. In 3.5, there was also the Pact Augmentation effects you could choose from every few levels, which allowed you to tailor the character even more, and I've just added that as well.

    Incidentally, I was initially considering doing a more general Summoner class, with subclasses Binder (binds vestiges into items, making things like possessed armour or sentient swords), Manifester (gives vestiges physical form in a manner similar to Summon Monster, giving you minions for the day) and Channeler (channels the powers and skills of the vestiges through themselves, like the 3.5e Binder) but I decided that was too complex when all I needed for now was a way to convert our party's Binder character into 5e. I'll probably still create that Summoner class though, just not yet. Stay tuned!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I'd be wary of making the binder a copycat of other classes (see: class feature abilities vestiges give) like in the past. It was cool in 3.5, but it's a difficult balancing act to keep it relevant, yet not unbalanced. Especially when dealing with flagship class abilities like the rogue's SA, or a bard's inspiration, which are vital to those classes being unique. I would advise to steer clear of iconic class features, and to be careful whilst handling scaling ones, as a high level binder gets up to five of them. Ideally, the class features emulated would not wind up more powerful than their alternative options.
    Yeah, I don't want it to steal the spotlight, but I do want it to be able to get a little bit of the flavour of the various classes. It's partly because of the lore - when you're binding the soul of a former rogue, you should feel a little bit roguish, and when you're binding the remnants of a mad demilich, you should get a taste of what that feels like, too. Also, this ability to be a jack-of-all-trades, dipping a toe into all the classes without ever fully being any one of them, is a sizeable part of why our Binder chose to play as a Binder, so if I remove too much of that then it defeats the reason I'm building this class.

    I've updated the first post with my latest additions; I'm currently trying to come up with a decent 20th-level capstone, and starting to convert the vestiges from Tome of Magic. There's a lot, but I'd like to get the first two or three levels done soon, because then we can start playing (our Binder is level 5).

    As always, critique and suggestions welcome.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Actually, it's currently calculated exactly the same as a spell attack: 1d20 + charisma + proficiency... which is exactly the same as a charisma check. I'll change the wording.
    awesome the way that nearly every d20 roll functions the same in 5e is one of my favorite selling points.

    The crazy thing about binders is that just binding a different set of vestiges already makes you very different.
    spellcasters also select vastly different sets of spells that differentiate them from their "classmates" in a similar way. Subclasses have nothing to do with that. Otherwise I get where you're coming from.
    I'm keeping some notes in the margin on this one, which I'll be providing to the DM who runs the game this will be used in, and one of the key notes is that a binder needs to discover the name, formal title, and seal of a vestige, so a DM can limit access to vestiges by requiring the players to go on a quest to find those details, which are likely to be lost or closely-guarded knowledge (especially for the higher-level vestiges). This helps to get binders diverging a little, and then there's the choice of Trusted Vestiges, which helps too. In 3.5, there was also the Pact Augmentation effects you could choose from every few levels, which allowed you to tailor the character even more, and I've just added that as well.
    I'm liking how it's turning out :3 just be wary on that AC bonus. It feels exploitable.

    Incidentally, I was initially considering doing a more general Summoner class, with subclasses Binder (binds vestiges into items, making things like possessed armour or sentient swords), Manifester (gives vestiges physical form in a manner similar to Summon Monster, giving you minions for the day) and Channeler (channels the powers and skills of the vestiges through themselves, like the 3.5e Binder) but I decided that was too complex when all I needed for now was a way to convert our party's Binder character into 5e. I'll probably still create that Summoner class though, just not yet. Stay tuned!
    I hope it comes out well. Summoning monsters as a combat strategy is less to my own taste than the binder, but nevertheless, summoners are kinda rad.

    Yeah, I don't want it to steal the spotlight, but I do want it to be able to get a little bit of the flavour of the various classes. partly because of the lore - when you're binding the soul of a former rogue, you should feel a little bit roguish, [...] is a sizeable part of why our Binder chose to play as a Binder, so if I remove too much of that then it defeats the reason I'm building this class.
    Fair enough. I nevertheless advise caution.

    I've updated the first post with my latest additions; I'm currently trying to come up with a decent 20th-level capstone, and starting to convert the vestiges from Tome of Magic. There's a lot, but I'd like to get the first two or three levels done soon, because then we can start playing (our Binder is level 5).

    As always, critique and suggestions welcome.
    capstone... perhaps Something like: "at 20th level, you can form a pact with a trusted vestige that last indefinitely. If you do so, the vestige remains in your body until you renegotiate the bound pact. You can only have one vestige bound in this fashion at once."
    Just a suggestion :3 it's a little bit of a "safety net" feature, you might make it along the lines of Signature Spell (wizard), at-will wild shape (druid) or starting every combat with Ki Points (Monk).

    Overall,this is looking great so far. I hope to see it done, and ideally find a way to playtest it someday :smallbiggrin
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-19 at 09:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    spellcasters also select vastly different sets of spells that differentiate them from their "classmates" in a similar way. Subclasses have nothing to do with that. Otherwise I get where you're coming from.
    I'm liking how it's turning out :3 just be wary on that AC bonus. It feels exploitable.
    Agreed. Like I said, I will add some subclass stuff to this at some point, but for now just getting the general feel of the 3.5 binder is enough for my purposes. Also, that AC bonus is possibly too powerful; that's a direct copy from 3.5, but AC worked differently there so it'll need adjusting. I plan to revisit that whole list of effects; I'm thinking possibly something like the warlock's invocations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    capstone... perhaps Something like: "at 20th level, you can form a pact with a trusted vestige that last indefinitely. If you do so, the vestige remains in your body until you renegotiate the bound pact. You can only have one vestige bound in this fashion at once."
    Just a suggestion :3 it's a little bit of a "safety net" feature, you might make it along the lines of Signature Spell (wizard), at-will wild shape (druid) or starting every combat with Ki Points (Monk).
    That's not a bad idea... I was thinking of a limited way to get some permanency on their abilities. Of course, specifying that it has to be a trusted vestige also means that they don't get permanent 9th-level stuff, because the highest Trusted Vestige spot is at 7th - which was deliberate; the very highest levels of power should always be a risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Overall,this is looking great so far. I hope to see it done, and ideally find a way to playtest it someday
    Thanks! I'll keep this thread updated, and when we start playing with it I'll let you know how it goes.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Agreed. Like I said, I will add some subclass stuff to this at some point, but for now just getting the general feel of the 3.5 binder is enough for my purposes. Also, that AC bonus is possibly too powerful; that's a direct copy from 3.5, but AC worked differently there so it'll need adjusting. I plan to revisit that whole list of effects; I'm thinking possibly something like the warlock's invocations.
    Fair enough. I like the idea of "binder invocations", though those at will abilities were to bolster a warlock, because a maximum 4 spells per long rest is otherwise unspeakable. I don't know how your Binder will come out, but depending how the vestiges come out it might not be too necessary.
    Though I can't tell for certain at this point. I figure you should see if he needs invocation like powers before setting it in stone.


    [,QUOTE]That's not a bad idea... I was thinking of a limited way to get some permanency on their abilities. Of course, specifying that it has to be a trusted vestige also means that they don't get permanent 9th-level stuff, because the highest Trusted Vestige spot is at 7th - which was deliberate; the very highest levels of power should always be a risk.

    Thanks! I'll keep this thread updated, and when we start playing with it I'll let you know how it goes.[/QUOTE]
    You can? It was? I might not have noticed. If so that's great (the chart is throwing me off)it would might work out pretty strong, even for a capstone, but the high level stuff still needs rest to recharge, even if it's a 7th level vestige constantly active.
    Thanks to you too! I look forward to it ^_^
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    If so that's great (the chart is throwing me off)it would might work out pretty strong, even for a capstone, but the high level stuff still needs rest to recharge, even if it's a 7th level vestige constantly active.
    True; the once-per-long-rest restriction will help. What I meant is that I don't really want to let the player have a 9th-level vestige always available at no risk - the core of Trusted Vestige is to reduce the risk of using a certain set of abilities that you've come to favour. By allowing them to make a binding last indefinitely, it means they can remove the risk entirely. By saying that the lasting pact has to be with a Trusted Vestige, it limits them to 7th level, so if they want to have 9th-level powers always available they have to take the risk of daily binding checks, so the DC of that check and the effects of failing can be used to balance the powers against each other. More powerful ability, higher DC and/or more inconvenient effects. Nothing crippling, but still enough to make the player think about it. Examples from 3.5 include an inability to lie, intense distrust of authority, an unwillingness to participate in theft or use stolen items, etc. In combat these are less important, but if the player has acted against these constraints recently, then that would impose penalties on things like initiative or damage rolls, and I do intend to bring that sort of thing into the 5e version. These penalties would be small (having a class that's crippled for a day if you fail a few checks in the morning is rather harsh) but still, no player likes it when their numbers get smaller, so it'll make them think twice about overstretching, and give players a reason to not just always bind the strongest vestiges they can get.

    I've updated the pact augmentation stuff to be somewhat like a warlock's invocations. I tried not to have these provide any real ability-type stuff, because that should really come from the vestiges themselves.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-05-20 at 07:42 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    True; the once-per-long-rest restriction will help. What I meant is that I don't really want to let the player have a 9th-level vestige always available at no risk - the core of Trusted Vestige is to reduce the risk of using a certain set of abilities that you've come to favour. By allowing them to make a binding last indefinitely, it means they can remove the risk entirely.
    Yes, but at the cost of flexibility: keeping your high-level vestige active means that swapping him out when you really need to will be costly with regards to the total vestige levels you can have bound. Sooner or later, the binder might swap out this "longterm pact" for a different, lower level one. Until he needs the longterm pact slot for a strong vestige again. Perhaps, to make things easier still, you could limit it to vestiges of up to 5th level, instead.

    By saying that the lasting pact has to be with a Trusted Vestige, it limits them to 7th level, so if they want to have 9th-level powers always available they have to take the risk of daily binding checks, so the DC of that check and the effects of failing can be used to balance the powers against each other. More powerful ability, higher DC and/or more inconvenient effects. Nothing crippling, but still enough to make the player think about it.
    that being said, you don't want players to think about it to the point they chicken out from using a stronger vestige just because of it's side effects you could perhaps work with the existing system for traits/ideals/bonds (but nothing severe, like a flaw) to create your vestige's influence, perhaps to the point that playing by them can earn you inspiration.
    Examples from 3.5 include an inability to lie, intense distrust of authority, an unwillingness to participate in theft or use stolen items, etc. In combat these are less important, but if the player has acted against these constraints recently, then that would impose penalties on things like initiative or damage rolls, and I do intend to bring that sort of thing into the 5e version. These penalties would be small (having a class that's crippled for a day if you fail a few checks in the morning is rather harsh)
    Disadvantage on ability checks while bound to a vestige who's pact you broke, perhaps?
    but still, no player likes it when their numbers get smaller, so it'll make them think twice about overstretching, and give players a reason to not just always bind the strongest vestiges they can get.
    in 3.5, you couldn't bind certain vestiges while bound to other ones. You could replicate that to avoid unbalanced vestige combinations, like WotC did. Just avoid "ignore special requirement", please? :P

    I've updated the pact augmentation stuff to be somewhat like a warlock's invocations. I tried not to have these provide any real ability-type stuff, because that should really come from the vestiges themselves.
    some of them have no purpose to be taken multiple times, so you may want to fix the wording. I like what you did with the armor class, in the end. It's cute and can help out high DEX/ low STR builds, as well as low economy campaigns and unarmored binders. Might I suggest, that vestiges that give you free AC offer some kind of other aid, like opponents having disadvantage on attack rolls, or the shield spell X/short rest.

    Lastly, would you like my help with making those vestiges? I thought I should ask because again - I love pact magic, and want to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Yes, but at the cost of flexibility: keeping your high-level vestige active means that swapping him out when you really need to will be costly with regards to the total vestige levels you can have bound. Sooner or later, the binder might swap out this "longterm pact" for a different, lower level one. Until he needs the longterm pact slot for a strong vestige again. Perhaps, to make things easier still, you could limit it to vestiges of up to 5th level, instead.
    Good point; I think I'm happy with that working as you described. I'll write it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    that being said, you don't want players to think about it to the point they chicken out from using a stronger vestige just because of it's side effects you could perhaps work with the existing system for traits/ideals/bonds (but nothing severe, like a flaw) to create your vestige's influence, perhaps to the point that playing by them can earn you inspiration.
    I agree totally; the aim here is enough that players pause for thought, but not enough to discourage them entirely. I love the idea of having the vestiges apply traits/ideals/bonds - I'll totally use that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    in 3.5, you couldn't bind certain vestiges while bound to other ones. You could replicate that to avoid unbalanced vestige combinations, like WotC did.
    I originally was planning to deliberately not do that, but I've recently started to reverse that decision. I think it's safest to leave that option open for balancing, and also there's some interesting fluff to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    some of them have no purpose to be taken multiple times, so you may want to fix the wording. I like what you did with the armor class, in the end. It's cute and can help out high DEX/ low STR builds, as well as low economy campaigns and unarmored binders. Might I suggest, that vestiges that give you free AC offer some kind of other aid, like opponents having disadvantage on attack rolls, or the shield spell X/short rest.
    Yeah, I'm ok with some being not worth taking again, although I suppose I could find ways to allow it - having multiple illusory effects at once, or having your vision go from regular darkvision to vision in magical darkness to true seeing... worth some thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Lastly, would you like my help with making those vestiges? I thought I should ask because again - I love pact magic, and want to help.
    If you'd like to, that'd be great! The idea of converting 46 vestiges is somewhat daunting, but I not doing all of them would feel too much like leaving it unfinished. If you want to lend a hand I would definitely appreciate it; the template is in the first post (although I might alter it at some point if it turns out to not work so well).

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    biggrin Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Cool, I'll try to get started on it tomorrow of Friday in particular I have a score to settle with some 1st level vestiges in Tome of Magic. particularly Leraje and Ronove, who are exceptionally disappointing.

    Are there any vestiges in particular that are high-priority? Perhaps faves of your binder? And also knowing why might help.

    One more question - where would a Vestige's special ability (see:Trusted Vestige) go, and what kind of stuff would we do with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I'd actually forgotten about a vestige's special ability, and when I was reminded earlier today, I started thinking maybe I'll drop it and instead find some other way to buff a Trusted Vestige. Not sure what yet. For now, ignore that part. I had some ideas for archetypes tonight, so perhaps they'll tie in with Trusted Vestiges and give archetype-specific extras.

    Our binder is 5th level, so it's the first few levels of vestiges that need doing soonest; no particular favourites except perhaps Andras, the Grey Knight.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    If you're looking, I actually have a PDF of all th vestiges Wizards made that aren't in the ToM. If you'd care I can post the Dropbox link.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Scarce's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Are there any vestiges in particular that are high-priority? Perhaps faves of your binder?
    I loved Tenebrous in 3.5. The shadow-based mechanics were crazy fun, and layered well with a warlock who's taken Devil Sight. Also, Flicker starts to lay the pieces for a caster who uses shadows to conceal the battlefield, and just kinda vanishes into more darkness when someone gets close.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I'm going away for a week and will have basically zero internet access, so don't be surprised when this thread falls quiet. I'm taking my DM notebook with me though, so I'll keep working on this and hopefully I'll have some stuff to post when I get back - possibly including some archetypes.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs up Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    I'd actually forgotten about a vestige's special ability, and when I was reminded earlier today, I started thinking maybe I'll drop it and instead find some other way to buff a Trusted Vestige. Not sure what yet. For now, ignore that part. I had some ideas for archetypes tonight, so perhaps they'll tie in with Trusted Vestiges and give archetype-specific extras.
    if you plan to do it depending on the vestige, it's a lot of effort either way.
    @Doctor: I'd imagine it would be a most welcome reference to have, even though non-ToM vestiges aren't a priority to me just yet.
    Our binder is 5th level, so it's the first few levels of vestiges that need doing soonest; no particular favourites except perhaps Andras, the Grey Knight.
    I'll see what I can get done. Do you want me to post vestiges here, or would you rather I PM'd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarce View Post
    I loved Tenebrous in 3.5. The shadow-based mechanics were crazy fun, and layered well with a warlock who's taken Devil Sight. Also, Flicker starts to lay the pieces for a caster who uses shadows to conceal the battlefield, and just kinda vanishes into more darkness when someone gets close.
    Tenebrous is great, but I'd need to do research first, since flicker, per se, is nonexistent in 5e. It's really too early to reliably take requests, but if this homebrew takes flight, the 5e binder should undoubtedly have all of the converted ToM vestiges available, at least, and though I'm only helping out, I want to make them all fun to play :3

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    I'm going away for a week and will have basically zero internet access, so don't be surprised when this thread falls quiet. I'm taking my DM notebook with me though, so I'll keep working on this and hopefully I'll have some stuff to post when I get back - possibly including some archetypes.
    have fun! I'll be here regardless and see if I can keep a discussion going about the class :3 still, come back when you can!
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Ok. I'll throw the link up.

    I also have a PDF of the ToM if you're interested.

    Here you go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2012

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    there is also the missing Ability Score Improvement at level 19
    I would really like some input on this 5e Homebrew
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...mebrew-on-GitP

    Help Rebuild my Friend's Shop Goblin Games!
    https://www.gofundme.com/rebuild-goblin-games

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    Ok. I'll throw the link up.

    I also have a PDF of the ToM if you're interested.

    Here you go.
    This is really awesome! Thanks!
    *never knew before that there were campaign-specific vestiges*

    I have the ToM on my bookshelf, so it's not crucial right now.
    As of right now I'm cross-referencing between the ToM and the 5E PHB. I may have a few questions for Anaximander by the time he gets back, including vestiges we might bump up a level to make room for 9th level power
    Quote Originally Posted by BRKNdevil View Post
    there is also the missing Ability Score Improvement at level 19

    Must've missed that, you're right!

    Does anyone have any other thoughts, comments, ideas, critiques?
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-23 at 02:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •