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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Does anyone have any other thoughts, comments, ideas, critiques?
    I'm really liking the class. Tried to port the binder over to 5e myself, but didn't get anything nearly as complete as this.
    Just looking forward to seeing the vestiges. Otiax, Focalor, and Orthos are personal favorites, if you're looking for recommendations.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiriah View Post
    I'm really liking the class. Tried to port the binder over to 5e myself, but didn't get anything nearly as complete as this.
    I was thinking about making a 5e binder myself before I stumbled on the thread frankly, even after the 5e binder is complete I would find a way to deviate from it - homebrew vestiges, fiddling with binder lore/theory... A DM of mine even had an idea of having vestiges bear half an alignment, which could change how pacts with them are formed, and what their legends may tell in a given campaign, among others things.

    But I think it's a little too much work for me and Anaximander19 at this stage.
    Just looking forward to seeing the vestiges. Otiax, Focalor, and Orthos are personal favorites, if you're looking for recommendations.
    I share your fondness of Focalor, Spiriah! The others may be a little less of a priority, since I've been asked to focus on early-level vestiges first.
    I've currently only drafts for vestiges closest to me (or that I'm most eager to reinvent): Leraje, Malphas, Paimon, Andromalius, and possibly Tenebrous and Dantalion coming up next (I'm a little scattered with my notes so it takes some time), I do have one vestige, ready enough, though, so we can see how this template might function:
    Spoiler: Sample Vestige
    Show
    NABERIUS
    The Grinning Hound
    1st Level Vestige
    Seal: A carefully drawn hand or paw-shaped symbol, facing your left with claws leaning in your direction, and various circles drawn across the seal - notably three on the right side that appear to resemble the claw's joints. sages believe the circles actually hint towards the many secrets he hides, and the power they place within his grasp.
    Sign: your voice deepens and sounds hoarse, and you tone often seems to more harsh and intimidating than normal.
    Manifestation:

    PROFICIENCIES:
    For as long as you remain bound to Naberius, you gain the following proficiencies:
    Skills: choose one from the following: Intimidation, Deception, or investigation.
    Tools:You gain proficiency with one type of artisan's tools of your choice.

    Silver Tongue
    you gain the friends cantrip, and can cast it at will.

    Disguise Self
    You can cast Disguise Self once without expending a spell slot. Once you have done so successfully, you must finish a short or long rest before you can cast it again.

    Persuasive Words
    You can cast command without spending a spell slot. You cast it just as a cleric of your binder level who expends her highest-level spell slot would. If you cast command this way, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.

    PACT INFORMATION:
    Very little is known about Naberius, as folklore leads to various potential origins. He does not answer questions regarding his legend, instead giving only a sly smile when being questioned. That being said, Naberius does not like to be interrupted, and such lack of respect imposes disadvantage on Charisma checks when binding him. With that in mind, Naberius enjoys hearing secrets, mischief and gossip, and telling him one of your upkept secrets can often please him, assuming you have not told this information to him before.
    If you make a poor pact with Naberius, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways
    1. Personality Trait: I relish the sound of my voice, and how sophisticated I sound. I can enjoy it for hours.
    2. Personality Trait: If you give me the opportunity to speak, I will not share it with others until I'm done. Never try to take it away from me.

    mind you, this is mostly for visualization, though I wouldn't mind feedback... I could not help but experiment with a few details not quite in the vestige template. But if the OP would ask me to remove them, or if they wind up being counterproductive, I'll stick with the original pattern.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-23 at 04:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    mind you, this is mostly for visualization, though I wouldn't mind feedback... I could not help but experiment with a few details not quite in the vestige template. But if the OP would ask me to remove them, or if they wind up being counterproductive, I'll stick with the original pattern.
    Honestly, at least at early levels, this seems kinda weak. Granted, part of what makes binders special is their absurd versatility, and you could choose to bind Naberius for social things or Amon for combat or what have you, but like 99% of what Naberius can do, a first or second-level warlock can do better.

    A 'lock could take Friends(in addition to EB), and would also get Disguise Self at-will at 2nd level. The Command is pretty strong at higher levels, but at early levels, all the binder is capable of doing with Naberius is casting Friends, being marginally better at skills than normal, disguising once every couple encounters, and once per day having a decent disable spell.

    I dunno, it might just be that Naberius isn't combat-focused and is a first-level vestige at that, but it seems like a bit of a letdown that your entire skillset could be replicated by another class that would also have the game's best attack cantrip.

    Personally, I think the vestige format needs a slight change. As-is, there's not really a way to include many passive abilities aside from profs and minor class features, and the class doesn't really have any consistent combat options. Again, more fighty vestiges would have more in that department, but at best they have only a cantrip and a warlock-style slot limited to one spell available consistently. I dunno if there's a way to get 3.5's recharge system to fit in with 5e, but that kept the abilities from being spammed (and kinda forced you to cycle through them) while keeping them strong.

    I dunno. It's just that 5e has made first-level characters comparatively stronger than first-levels in previous editions, and this class should probably try to fit in with that.
    Last edited by Spiriah; 2015-05-24 at 12:19 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiriah View Post
    Honestly, at least at early levels, this seems kinda weak. Granted, part of what makes binders special is their absurd versatility, and you could choose to bind Naberius for social things or Amon for combat or what have you, but like 99% of what Naberius can do, a first or second-level warlock can do better.

    A 'lock could take Friends(in addition to EB), and would also get Disguise Self at-will at 2nd level. The Command is pretty strong at higher levels, but at early levels, all the binder is capable of doing with Naberius is casting Friends, being marginally better at skills than normal, disguising once every couple encounters, and once per day having a decent disable spell.

    I dunno, it might just be that Naberius isn't combat-focused and is a first-level vestige at that, but it seems like a bit of a letdown that your entire skillset could be replicated by another class that would also have the game's best attack cantrip.
    I get the warlock thing as far as power is concerned, and will think about what what me and the OP could do to keep the binder at odds with other classes, but I'm not entirely sure the warlock, who's best advantage is the strongest cantrip in the game and excels via at-will abilities, is the best example - since when has Naberius offered you any damage abilities?
    Granted, you have command once per long rest which is usable in combat, but he isn't a combat vestige. I'm sorry if you expected the grinning hound to offer a bite attack
    Personally, I think the vestige format needs a slight change. As-is, there's not really a way to include many passive abilities aside from profs and minor class features, and the class doesn't really have any consistent combat options. Again, more fighty vestiges would have more in that department, but at best they have only a cantrip and a warlock-style slot limited to one spell available consistently. I dunno if there's a way to get 3.5's recharge system to fit in with 5e, but that kept the abilities from being spammed (and kinda forced you to cycle through them) while keeping them strong.
    a wizard doesn't have much going for him, either, if you discount his spells. the fact that there's only one vestige posted at this time, and that it wasn't a predictable sample like Amon, will not mean the binder will fail in a combat.I won't allow it to.
    I will give you one thing, though - I think the binder should his own gimmick, rather than follow others examples.
    Lastly, skills have a greater, more appreciated role in 5 then 3.5, if you somehow find a way to get more than 4 skills is considered much more valuable. If the level binder got 5 vestiges that each gave him a skill, he could have as many as 10 different skills, feats and downtime notwithstanding.
    If we as adding skills it would require caution, come to think of it.^_^;;;;

    I dunno. It's just that 5e has made first-level characters comparatively stronger than first-levels in previous editions, and this class should probably try to fit in with that.
    A great point. the game's progression is no longer linear like in previous editions - by it's own nature, you get more early- and mid- level class abilities than late ones.

    Anything else? Anyone else?
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-24 at 06:28 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I get the warlock thing as far as power is concerned, and will think about what what me and the OP could do to keep the binder at odds with other classes, but I'm not entirely sure the warlock, who's best advantage is the strongest cantrip in the game and excels via at-will abilities, is the best example - since when has Naberius offered you any damage abilities?
    Granted, you have command once per long rest which is usable in combat, but he isn't a combat vestige. I'm sorry if you expected the grinning hound to offer a bite attack
    It's not that Naberius isn't a combat vestige - he's obviously built for socializing it up and being a party face. It's just that Naberius isn't really giving you significant benefit in filling the social role he's made for.

    Friends doesn't really help you socially in any situation where you're dealing with someone you don't plan on murdering after it wears off, and any Binder probably has already taken Deception (assuming it's available - I can't seem to find the skills list?) in order to weasel their way out of religious persecution, if that part of the lore's being carried over to 5e.

    I made the Warlock comparison due to it being another class with spells that recharged on short rests. Maybe it's not the most apt comparison, as the two classes sit rather far apart in terms of versatility, but as it stands, binding Naberius doesn't seem to give any significant social benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    a wizard doesn't have much going for him, either, if you discount his spells. the fact that there's only one vestige posted at this time, and that it wasn't a predictable sample like Amon, will not mean the binder will fail in a combat.I won't allow it to.
    The issue I was trying to address is more that, at first level, a Binder has basic weapon and armor proficiency, two passives such as languages or maybe skill/weapon proficiencies from a vestige, one cantrip, one (effectively) warlock-like spell, and one (again, effectively) cleric/wizard spell.

    To compare it to another class that has spells, a first level wizard may lose the armor and some of the weapon profs, but in return has three cantrips, six available spells, two of which can be cast from a list of (int mod plus one) prepared. That's a lot more options available at once, as well as more spells throughout the day (especially after Arcane Recovery). This was part of why I made the Warlock comparison - Warlocks have short rest recharge spells, potentially some long-rest abilities, and light armor and simple weapons. A bard would also be somewhat similar - same equipment profs, and a rather versatile skillset.

    A lot of the Binder's strength is being a jack of all trades, but I think the existing format for vestige powers makes it too much of a "master of none", in that it has few methods of contributing in any meaningful way. It could be that there's only Naberius posted as of now, but I think that the Binder needs to have its core class feature be a bit stronger and more distinct, rather than being "you can take these weaker things from other classes and use them interchangeably." How's Paimon or Dahlver Nar, with their pretty unique abilities, going to be represented by borrowing spells and class features.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I will give you one thing, though - I think the binder should his own gimmick, rather than follow others examples.
    Yeah, this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Lastly, skills have a greater, more appreciated role in 5 then 3.5, if you somehow find a way to get more than 4 skills is considered much more valuable. If the level binder got 5 vestiges that each gave him a skill, he could have as many as 10 different skills, feats and downtime notwithstanding.
    If we as adding skills it would require caution, come to think of it.^_^;;;;
    Fair point on the skills, but how likely are you to run into knowledge-related checks, thievery, social business, and/or a bunch of other skill stuff in one session? Furthermore, if you've bound into a full skillmonkey set of vestiges, what're you doing for combat? I mean obviously some combat vestiges would give skills, but going by your description, it seems the binder in question would be entirely skill-focused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    A great point. the game's progression is no longer linear like in previous editions - by it's own nature, you get more early- and mid- level class abilities than late ones.
    My thoughts on this have kind of been explained above - but to clarify, I think that Naberius needs a bit of a power boost in order to make level one binders who use him capable party members in their intended social role, regardles of if their in-combat role is limited to crossbowing it up from a distance.

    Kinda got wall-of-texty there. Hope some of what I had to say is useful.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    First thing's first: my apologies for not quoting where necessary, as my old mobile isn't giving me an easy life as it is. Also, this information and criticism is important, I hope you guys keep me, and the OP, (and anyone else who wants to help) on our toes, for as long as you help us make the 5e Binder worthy of the name "Pact Magic"

    Even though Anaximander won't be back for a few more days, I'm planning some suggestions on how the OP could improve the class model. Among them is a change on how many vestiges you can have bound at a given level, and talk about making adjustments to the vestige template that might be less "1 size fits all". I aim for it to be a step in the right direction.

    @Naberius - Frankly, I don't know for certain either what skills the Binder would have. So I work with guessing. But it's not an intended implication about me wanting the binder to be skill-heavy (at least not at this point) but an observation in the current design - the options for passive abilities include skill proficiencies. And I point out that it can get pretty messy as we go along. My current thoughts at this point involve offering advantage on thematically appropriate checks. In Paimon's example, I don't feel at ease adding an increase to dexterity or handing out skills. Instead, I may start giving the dancer theme in the form of a free ribbon, and might look something like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Paimon
    While wielding a finesse weapon*, You have advantage on all Dexterity (Acrobatics) and Charisma (Performance) checks made to dance, tumble or whirl.
    I'm still working on Paimon, He's not as easy as I thought, since his signature dance (move+attack everyone you move past) is something any melee-fighting character can already do in 5e. I'm currently trying to think up an innovative solution with him.

    Finally, if you have suggestions or comments on what I could do to improve the vestige, I'm all ears.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    First thing's first: my apologies for not quoting where necessary, as my old mobile isn't giving me an easy life as it is. Also, this information and criticism is important, I hope you guys keep me, and the OP, (and anyone else who wants to help) on our toes, for as long as you help us make the 5e Binder worthy of the name "Pact Magic"
    No worries on the quotes. Also, thanks for appreciating my input. It means a lot to be able to contribute to the updating of one of 3.5's coolest classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Even though Anaximander won't be back for a few more days, I'm planning some suggestions on how the OP could improve the class model. Among them is a change on how many vestiges you can have bound at a given level, and talk about making adjustments to the vestige template that might be less "1 size fits all". I aim for it to be a step in the right direction.
    Yeah, this was one of my concerns, too, and I think that making vestiges less "one size fits all" would be a step in the right direction. Maybe make the abilities more guidelines than hard rules - X number of minor abilities, X number of slightly stronger powers, and then one big power? Guess I'll wait to see what you've got before offering critique in that department.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    @Naberius - Frankly, I don't know for certain either what skills the Binder would have. So I work with guessing. But it's not an intended implication about me wanting the binder to be skill-heavy (at least not at this point) but an observation in the current design - the options for passive abilities include skill proficiencies. And I point out that it can get pretty messy as we go along. My current thoughts at this point involve offering advantage on thematically appropriate checks.
    I wasn't saying that Binder would automatically be skill-heavy - was referring to you bringing up the possibility of up to 10 skills being availagle to Binders. And I think the advantage on appropriate checks would work quite well - fits Naberius's 3.5 powerset better than casting Friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    In Paimon's example, I don't feel at ease adding an increase to dexterity or handing out skills. Instead, I may start giving the dancer theme in the form of a free ribbon, and might look something like this:
    I'm still working on Paimon, He's not as easy as I thought, since his signature dance (move+attack everyone you move past) is something any melee-fighting character can already do in 5e. I'm currently trying to think up an innovative solution with him.
    Yeah, a Dex bonus is kind of out of the question for 5e - I haven't really found anything that modifies stats besides, say, intellect devourers. I think that something that prevents/disadvantages opportunity attacks might be a good component of Paimon's powerset, though I don't know how to implement his Dance of Death. He'd probably also need some form of extra attacks.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    You're welcome.

    We don't need level 9 vestiges, do we? The old binders were just fine without them.

    I'll be trying to convert an existing vestige myself later today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    STILL EDITING 1 second done
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiriah View Post
    No worries on the quotes. Also, thanks for appreciating my input. It means a lot to be able to contribute to the updating of one of 3.5's coolest classes.
    my pleasure

    Yeah, this was one of my concerns, too, and I think that making vestiges less "one size fits all" would be a step in the right direction. Maybe make the abilities more guidelines than hard rules - X number of minor abilities, X number of slightly stronger powers, and then one big power? Guess I'll wait to see what you've got before offering critique in that department.
    also a valid suggestion I'm gonna steal it!

    I wasn't saying that Binder would automatically be skill-heavy - was referring to you bringing up the possibility of up to 10 skills being available to Binders. And I think the advantage on appropriate checks would work quite well - [B{fits Naberius's 3.5 powerset better than casting Friends.[/B]
    message received. the friends cantrip is off the table. curiosity, what do you think of Vicious Mockery? I thought it was very thematically appropriate given his influence, but I can't tell it's value as a Cantrip. And I still want to hand out Cantrips.
    Yeah, a Dex bonus is kind of out of the question for 5e - I haven't really found anything that modifies stats besides, say, intellect devourers. I think that something that prevents/disadvantages opportunity attacks might be a good component of Paimon's powerset, though I don't know how to implement his Dance of Death. He'd probably also need some form of extra attacks.
    extra attacks are a neat idea, but there should only be one vestige IMO that gives a consistent extra attack. At best, a high level vestige might add an "extra attack; but with conditions" to cap the binder at 3 attacks/round.
    Another option is to just GIVE the binder chart an extra attack at level 5 (when Paimon is available), and worry about second extra attack/(conditional) from a high level tier vestige.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    You're welcome.

    We don't need level 9 vestiges, do we? The old binders were just fine without them.

    I'll be trying to convert an existing vestige myself later today.
    The OP insisted justly on vestiges peaking at 9th level, because it's weird that by level 17-20 the binder is stuck with 8th level vestiges when all the big spellcasters get level 9 spells. Also, 9th level vestiges would probably be easier to compare with the power of 9th level spells.

    Also - cool! Which one? :3
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-25 at 04:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

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    yuk Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Spoiler: Naberius Mk.2
    Show
    NABERIUS
    The Grinning Hound
    1st Level Vestige
    Seal: A carefully drawn hand or paw-shaped symbol, facing your left with claws leaning in your direction, and various circles drawn across the seal - notably three on the right side that appear to resemble the claw's joints. sages believe the circles actually hint towards the many secrets he hides, and the power they place within his grasp.
    Sign: your voice deepens and sounds hoarse, and you tone often seems to more harsh and intimidating than normal.
    Manifestation:

    PROFICIENCIES:
    Tools: One type of artisan's tools of your choice.

    LEVERAGE
    You have advantage on all Intelligence and Charisma checks made to deliver, discover or withhold potentially useful information.

    NOBLE BLOODHOUND
    You can spend 1 round to "sniff out" the general direction of, and proximity of the highest authority figure (or one of them), or most influential figure in a group of creatures within 100 feet for the round. Doing so requires an intelligence(Investigation) check contested by the creature's Dexterity (stealth) check. This ability works around corners, but powerful odors or magical effects might mislead or block this unique sense. You can continue to track the leading creature for another round by spending 1 action concentrating on the sense.

    NABERIUS'S SNARL
    You gain the Vicious Mockery cantrip, and can cast it at will.

    DISGUISE SELF You can cast Disguise Self without expending a spell slot. Casting the spell in this fashion requires 1 minute.

    PERSUASIVE WORDS
    You can cast Command without expending a spell slot. You cast it as if using a spell slot of the highest level vestige you have bound. At 14th level, you can instead cast Suggestion in the same fashion if you are also bound to a vestige that is 3rd level or higher. Once this ability in either method, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.

    PACT INFORMATION:
    Very little is known about Naberius, as folklore leads to various potential origins. He does not answer questions regarding his legend, instead giving only a sly smile when being questioned. That being said, Naberius does not like to be interrupted, and such lack of respect imposes disadvantage on Charisma checks when binding him. With that in mind, Naberius enjoys hearing secrets, mischief and gossip, and telling him one of your upkept secrets can often please him, assuming you have not told this information to him before.
    If you make a poor pact with Naberius, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:
    Influence
    Personality Trait I relish the sound of my voice, and how sophisticated I sound. I can enjoy it for hours.
    Personality Trait: I'd take any opportunity to speak to large groups, and I will not willingly share it.

    VESTIGIAL NEWS:
    Naberius
    As mentioned above, I'm still stubborn on making a worthy version of Naberius with little to compare to but the PHB and the old ToM.
    I won't go fully into details yet about the thoughts behind this version. For the most part I'm mostly interested in knowing if this is a step in the right direction, or if I need to go back to the drawing board. I'm also open to suggestions as well as constructive critique.

    Paimon
    Business is slow, but progress is being made. I'm currently thinking of using a variation of combat superiority that focuses on finesse weapons (but with preset maneuvers, sorry! :X)
    I'm building The Dance of Death after a limited/check-requiring form of Haste, and as a thought experiment I'm giving him the cantrip Blade Ward which I imagine that coupled with the former spell could be a cool combo.

    Amon:
    Frankly, I don't believe we can have a binder without Amon he's practically the first vestige we meet and appears in multiple Binder pictures. Now for business - the fact that Amon has so few granted abilities makes him require a little more love and creativity on our part. And I'm sort of looking for ideas for new abilities he may have in the new edition. One thing I thought about doing is giving advantage in contest rolls against fiends and celestials (if I recall, shoving a target/bull rushing is a contest ). And that at some high level this advantage will also apply against other binders, making Amon an interesting vestige choice when forced to face one of your own class. If you have any thoughts or ideas about this particular vestige let me know.

    Acererak
    Went into the Tomb of horrors and took a Selfie too close to the sphere of annihilation. Didn't go very well but I hope to do better next time. no other news yet!
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Not gonna fuss around with quotes, and apologies for the slow reply. Had a lot to do in the previous few days. Pretty sure you can match up each of these points to the relevant quote, though.

    I really like Vicious Mockery for Naberius. As you said, very thematic, and it's a pretty good cantrip with an uncommon damage type and inflicting disadvantage. Seems like Naberius binders can take a kind of support/debuff role in combat with VM and Command, and that's neat.

    Dunno about only one vestige granting extra attacks, but I do think if there are multiple that do then they have to not stack. I do like the idea of "if X conditions are met you get a bonus attack". Maybe give Paimon something along those lines, perhaps something that fits the same kind of role as Mobile? If you hit an enemy, they can't AOO you and you get an attack you can use against a different enemy?

    I'm really liking the Naberius rework. Going to go through each feature below:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Flavor Text: Not much to say here, seems similar to the 3.5 version.

    Proficiencies: Good. Fits with the existing fluff on Naberius and skills, and from a mechanics perspective lets you do some additional crafting stuff with the rarer artisan tools.

    Leverage: I really like this. Advantage is strong, but it's balanced out by the conditions/limitations. Very fitting of Naberius, IMO.

    Naberius's Snarl: See comments on VM above.

    Disguise Self: This works well, I think. Nice middleground between "at-will in-combat disguise" and "i need to short rest to swap disguises". Requires some forethought on what you're going to do/who you're disguising as.

    Persuasive Words: I also believe I talked about Command in a previous post. Addition of Suggestion fits with 3.5, but the requirement of both a certain binder level and a certain vestige level strikes me as kind of odd. Dunno your reasoning behind it though, so it's probably like that for a reason. Care to elaborate?

    Pact Information: See Flavor Text above. Somewhat reminds me of the background-specific Flaws.

    Other stuff: I think this new Naberius is certainly a step in the right direction. Keep going with it. Interesting ideas on Paimon as well. My take on his Dance is up above. As for Amon, besides ram horns and fire I'm not sure what direction to go with him. The anti-Binder stuff is an interesting take, especially given his dislike of some other vestiges.
    Last edited by Spiriah; 2015-05-28 at 04:00 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I wanted to save this idea for when Anaximander19 came back, but I don't want to forget it a second time: A friend of mine pointed out an interesting innovation for the 5e binder, which could save us quite a bit of work - the idea is that vestiges of key levels could be exclusively divided into sets that build a common theme for a binder (via subclasses). While keeping some of the other vestiges universal. it might hurt the binder's overall versatility a bit, but it would be in exchange for distinction and color, (plus we would likely need to recreate a lot less vestiges.)
    If this idea takes flight, It would probably help to know from as many pact magic fans who want to help:

    Execution of abilities from 3.5 notwithstanding, What vestiges in the ToM do you want to see in the 5e binder?


    Quote Originally Posted by Spiriah View Post
    Not gonna fuss around with quotes, and apologies for the slow reply. Had a lot to do in the previous few days.
    Not offended. Welcome to the club! There's snacks and hot drinks on your left.

    I really like Vicious Mockery for Naberius. As you said, very thematic, and it's a pretty good cantrip with an uncommon damage type and inflicting disadvantage. Seems like Naberius binders can take a kind of support/debuff role in combat with VM and Command, and that's neat.
    I didn't think about psychic damage being uncommon, frankly. Though it did occur to me this was a bard-only cantrip. The desire to use Naberius to magically bark on somebody's ego was too tempting

    Dunno about only one vestige granting extra attacks, but I do think if there are multiple that do then they have to not stack. I do like the idea of "if X conditions are met you get a bonus attack". Maybe give Paimon something along those lines, perhaps something that fits the same kind of role as Mobile? If you hit an enemy, they can't AOO you and you get an attack you can use against a different enemy?
    funny, one of the things I was thinking about was giving the binder a built-in extra attack at level 5 anyway, and having another vestige at a higher level provide the third attack if you wish to focus on being combatant.

    I'm really liking the Naberius rework. Going to go through each feature below:

    Spoiler
    Show
    *snip*
    It's good if the fluff resembles that of 3.5, or more accurately - resembles that of D&D. I'm less into reinventing what isn't necessary, given the degree that the ToM vestiges pay homage to game's history, or are inspired by real demonological figures. It wouldn't feel right to change that. But I would nevertheless consider the option to reinterpret a vestige if I think it'll help creatively.

    @Leverage, it's either that our expertise, as far as my thought process goes. But I'm not sure a level 1 binder is ready for that yet.

    @DS: it's worth mentioning that this is not a dismissable spell. Once your disguised, you stay disguised for a whole hour. If you need to shake off the disguise, Best you can probably do is replace the illusion. Also - I'm glad I found a good solution, because DS can't be a ritual either! Even though it would have made my life easier...

    Unfortunately I'm not eager to elaborate just yet on persuasive words, but I did just realize that suggestion is but a 2nd level spell now. Will make changes in my notes, if not here yet, later.

    ... Oddly enough, the one ability I was most hesitant about experimenting seems to go unmentioned. I guess that goes to show something about how it blends in.

    Other stuff: I think this new Naberius is certainly a step in the right direction. Keep going with it. Interesting ideas on Paimon as well. My take on his Dance is up above. As for Amon, besides ram horns and fire I'm not sure what direction to go with him. The anti-Binder stuff is an interesting take, especially given his dislike of some other vestiges.
    I'm gonna see what I can do to fine tune Cerberus, here. But he's less of a priority for now since he has better structure than before.

    I'm still thinking about and working on Amon and Paimon, and oddly enough Malphas, as invisibility has a lot of potential, and his affinity for poisonmaking could make him great with the downtime mechanic.
    It also occurred to me that there's a 7th or 8th level vestige that gives you bonuses for using siege weapons at really high levels. It makes me wonder just how necessary this is, and surprised how scattered the binder is compared to what he could be.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-05-29 at 02:58 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I wanted to save this idea for when Anaximander19 came back, but I don't want to forget it a second time: A friend of mine pointed out an interesting innovation for the 5e binder, which could save us quite a bit of work - the idea is that vestiges of key levels could be exclusively divided into sets that build a common theme for a binder (via subclasses). While keeping some of the other vestiges universal. it might hurt the binder's overall versatility a bit, but it would be in exchange for distinction and color, (plus we would likely need to recreate a lot less vestiges.)
    If this idea takes flight, It would probably help to know from as many pact magic fans who want to help:

    Execution of abilities from 3.5 notwithstanding, What vestiges in the ToM do you want to see in the 5e binder?
    Hm. Not sure how I feel about limiting vestiges via subclass. One of the coolest things about the Binder, IMO, is that crazy versatility that comes with having access to all the vestiges. Would have to see what you have planned for those subclasses, though.

    My current ideas for subclasses are adapting Anima Mage and Knight of the Sacred Seal into individual subclasses (like assassin changed from a prestige class to a rogue subclass), and adding something more "generic" that possibly deals with swapping vestiges, but there's the renegotiation feature now so I dunno about that.

    As for vestiges I'd want to see, there's the aforementioned Otiax, Focalor, and Orthos, as well as Dahlver-Nar and Buer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    funny, one of the things I was thinking about was giving the binder a built-in extra attack at level 5 anyway, and having another vestige at a higher level provide the third attack if you wish to focus on being combatant.
    I'd support giving Binder a second attack at 5. There are enough vestiges that buff combat to set a precedent for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    ... Oddly enough, the one ability I was most hesitant about experimenting seems to go unmentioned. I guess that goes to show something about how it blends in.
    Shoot, I forgot to mention that. Noble Bloodhound seems interesting, and I could certainly think up uses for it. Pretty Naberius-themed, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    It also occurred to me that there's a 7th or 8th level vestige that gives you bonuses for using siege weapons at really high levels. It makes me wonder just how necessary this is, and surprised how scattered the binder is compared to what he could be.
    Which one? Can't seem to find it. Thought it might've been Halphax, but it isn't.
    Last edited by Spiriah; 2015-05-29 at 06:40 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I'm back!

    It seems you've been busy in my absence... I'm going to try to respond to as much of it as possible, and then I'll add my new stuff as a separate post once I've assembled it a little.

    First, I'd just like to say that I really like where vestiges are heading.

    I like the use of traits for the poor pact influences; 5e's trait/ideal/bond/flaw system is cool and making use of it is a great idea. Traits and flaws in particular fit perfectly with the way vestiges affect a binder's personality, and the mechanic is already there to incentivise roleplaying them.

    The idea of casting spells at higher-level slots isn't something I'd thought of, but I like it. It makes the lower-level vestiges still useful at higher levels.

    Now, this part is crucial: as some people have started to suggest, the vestige template is intended to be more guidelines than actual rules. This means a few things:
    • The number of abilities can change a little, so (for example) a vestige could have a couple extra proficiencies, or an extra per-short-rest spell, or something
    • The power of abilities could change, so a 6th-level might have a 2nd-level spell and a 4th-level spell as the minor powers, rather than a pair of 3rd-levels
    • Perhaps most importantly, the listed options are guidelines, not a complete and specific list. So where it says "2x languages, proficiencies, skills, etc" or "1 spell of half the vestige's level" or whatever, all of these should include the phrase "...or other ability of similar power".


    That last point is crucial. A Binder is a jack-of-all-trades, and the easiest way to do that is to pick and mix things from other classes - but it's also the most boring, and the most likely to tread on other classes' toes. I'd much prefer it if there were abilities you could only get by being a Binder and choosing the right vestiges. (That said, it's important to remember the 5e design principle "things should be the same, or they should be different". In other words, if you're granting an ability that has the same effect as a spell, don't create a new refluffed reskinned clone, just give them the spell.)

    With regard to the variances in power level you'd get from giving vestiges slightly different numbers or levels of abilities, my plan for balancing the vestiges was to vary the pact DC a little. Working on the assumption that a 1st-level binder will have a Charisma check of somewhere in the region of (1d20) + (proficiency of +2) + (Charisma mod of +2 to +4), giving an average of somewhere around 14. By level 20, they'll probably have maxed their Charisma along the way, so that'll be (1d20) + (proficiency of +6) + (Charisma mod of +5), which averages around 21. A range of 7 or 8 is kinda small. If you decide to let them start doubling their proficiency bonus on the check at some point, that becomes (1d20) + (double proficiency for a total of +12) + (Charisma mod of +5), which averages about 27. Using that, the vestige pact DC could go from about 12-14 for 1st-levels, all the way up to 30 for the highest 9th-levels. That's possibly 18 points worth of range - 2 per level. That's a good number, although I don't know if I'd go with a flat distribution like that. So, a slightly stronger vestige might have a slightly higher DC than others of its level, and vice versa for the weaker ones.

    If more balancing is needed, then I kinda like Prince Zahn's idea of imposing disadvantage - perhaps two vestiges that form a powerful combo might have conflicting personalities, so their texts state "you have disadvantage on the Charisma check to make a pact with [this vestige] if you already have [other vestige] bound".

    One possible other measure is to say that if you make a poor pact, then a certain ability works differently - say, you have disadvantage on its attack roll, or you can only be immune to its AoE damage with a good pact, or you get half healing from a heal-type ability if you make a poor pact; that sort of thing. I'd be very careful with this though; 3.5 was careful to state that you get their abilities no matter how the pact goes, and as I've said before, crippling the character for a day because of one or two bad checks in the morning is kinda harsh.

    While I'm on the subject, I think perhaps the vestige template should give a few more low-level passive things, or at least be more flexible about them. Say, between 2 and 5 things, rather than just two. Two languages is not the same as two weapon proficiencies. If anyone has any more concrete suggestions on what that template should look like, I'd love to see them. Just bear in mind that I was planning to do cards for each vestige with the abilities on one side, and the name/title/seal, level, pact DC, and influences on the other, just for those players who take forever to look things up. A vestige can have other things (lore and flavour text) that take up more space, but it'd be nice if those basics could fit on two sides of a playing-card-size card in a readably-sized font.

    Other than that, I've had some ideas on archetypes: Binder's Fate. Being a Binder leaves its mark on those who practice the art, and at 3rd level they embark on a path that will leave them changed.
    • Awakened: exposure to creatures who exist outside of the usual laws of the universe imbues you with cosmic powers. Gain limited low-level spellcasting similar to Rogue's Arcane Trickster, choosing from the Sorcerer spell list.
    • Warped: the various physical signs and manifestations of the vestiges imprint themselves on your body, leaving you with unnatural features. Gain natural weapon and combat-useful features appropriate to a selected template (most obvious being Amon-style horns, scaled hide for Dragonborn-esque AC boost).
    • Unfettered: the study of magics that pierce the planes enables you to leave behind your physical form and experience the world as a vestige would. Gain ethereal-type abilities including blindsense/see invisibility as per one of the Rogue's archetypes, and some blur/blink/invisibility-type powers for increased stealth and mobility.


    I'm by no means sold on these archetypes yet, but I think there's potential there. Thoughts?
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-05-30 at 05:32 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    My promised conversion, a bit late.

    VESTIGE LEVEL: 9
    PACT DC: 22
    Halphax
    The Angel in the Angle

    Spoiler: Halphax
    Show
    Special Requirement: You must draw the seal of Halphax in a corner of a building or other structure.
    Manifestation: When Halphax manifests, the corner in which he was summoned appears to warp, growing deeper and extending to what appears to be an infinite distance beyond the limits of the structure. In that distance, a figure appears, and suddenly the distance closes, bringing Halphax into his seal. Halphax always takes the form of a gnome wearing leather breeches and a vest, both of which are covered in pockets and loops for holding tools and items. The tools of an engineer hang from his belt, and he usually appears in a posture of boredom, hands in his pockets. Halphax’s most striking feature is that he seems to have no flesh and bone beneath his clothes—only broken bits of stone and masonry. The shattered features of bas-reliefs and gargoyles make up his face.
    Sign: Your body takes on the appearance of cracked stone.
    Influence: In his time as a vestige, Halphax seems to have lost all memory of his life as well as any feeling of guilt or shame for his actions. Thus, when you are under his influence, you lose any normal sense of shame or embarrassment. However, if someone threatens a hostage you care about—be it a creature or an item—Halphax requires that you accede to the hostage taker’s demands.

    Granted Powers:

    Stone Skin: While bound to Halphax you have resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage.

    Halphax's Knowledge: You gain your proficiency bonus to skill checks about architecture, buildings, and so on.

    Imprison: You can imprison a foe deep underground with but a touch. This acts as the imprisonment spell (PHB page 252) You can only choose the burial or hedge prison options. You can use this ability once per long rest. Spell save DC is equal to 8+ your proficiency bonus+ your charisma modifier.

    Iron Wall: You can create a wall of iron at-will. This acts as wall of force. You can have a maximum of 5 walls at a time.

    Secure Shelter: Once per short rest you can cast Leomund's tiny hut.



    How did I do?
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 2015-06-16 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Deleted proficiency in Perception/Insight, removed short rest limit from iron wall, and spoilered
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    First of all, welcome back Anaxi! You had me worried

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    My promised conversion, a bit late.

    [VESTIGE LEVEL: 9
    PACT DC: 22
    Halphax
    The Angel in the Angle
    *snip*
    How did I do?
    Might I make a suggestion to spoiler vestiges, so they take less space? I feel they can take up quite a bit of space.

    That's kind of funny, Doctor, how just the other night I was looking up siege weapons in the DMG, thinking of what I can do with the exact same vestige

    • I'm at work at the moment, so I don't really have the means to compare with the books today. Here are my thoughts on Halphax:
    • Tbh I wanted to save broadly applicable perception benefits and the like to a vestige like Dantalion, or Geryon(was it Geryon? The one with all-around vision!)
    • As a ninth level vestige, I think he can afford some more powerful tools - resistance to weapon damage is something for lower level vestiges I think, perhaps I'm wrong, though.
    • I don't think we need heavy limits on Wall of Force for a 17th or higher level binder. Perhaps we could make it an at-Will ability, but place a cap on how many walls he can have up at once? As of late I'm experimenting with caps for vestiges vestige bound, though I think the best is to rely on reason/common sense to triumph in the end.
    • Fluff speaking I have little to say - it seems closer to the original than it is to any adaptation. We're currently using temporarily-imposed traits/ideals/bonds/flaws as of right now to portray a vestige's influence, as opposed to outright blackmailing the 5e binder when making decisions.
    • Adding proficiency to skills is an iffy decision. inb4 the Binder's
    • 4 or 5 vestiges can mean having 10 or more different skill proficiencies, more than even a rogue optimized for skill proficiencies can ever get (feats notwithstanding). Long story short, granting skill proficiencies is a difficult thing to balance when we make so many moving parts, I suggest giving benefits by other means if necessary.
    • Also, the core books suggest keeping flat bonuses to a minimum, and +6 is a ton.
    • I think imprisonment is a great ability to play with at these levels. Can't think of more to say about it yet

      What I envisioned for Halphax was lowering him to mid/mid-high level making him a sort of war-machines-and-certain-traps-based-battlefield controller.

      Overall, Doctor, it's a good base mostly just needs to be synced with our discussion notes. I'll be happy to work with you further on Halphax, as well as others if you want. I figure I could use a set of Gallifreyan hands on a few vestiges
      @Spiriah you're invited too, especially with Anaxi back, we can make a little team out of it!

      I'll try to find a time soon to put up some of my ideas... I've been busy.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-06-01 at 04:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I'll revise Halphax later. For now, here is one of my all-time favorites:

    FOCALOR
    Prince of Tears
    Bind DC: 18
    Vestige Level: 3rd
    Spoiler: Focalor
    Show

    Special Requirement: You must draw Focalor's seal with some sort of liquid.
    Manifestation: Focalor manifests slowly, appearing first as a single tear that drops from thin air to strike the ground. Next his weeping eyes appear, and gradually his whole body becomes visible. Focalor looks like a handsome human male whose face is twisted by grief. He wears no clothes, but he cloaks his body in the griffon wings that grow from his back and shudder with each of his wracking sobs.
    Sign: While bound to Focalor your eyes constantly weep, regardless of your mood or thoughts.
    Influence: IN PROGRESS
    Granted abilities:
    Aura of Sadness: Each creature within 5 feet of you takes a -1 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. You may deactivate or reactivate this feature as an action.
    Focalor's Breath: As an action, you may breath towards a target within 30 feet, who must immediately make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8+ your proficiency bonus + your charisma modifier) or be blinded for 1 round. You can use this ability once per short rest.
    Lightning Strike: You call down lightning on a target you can see that is within 50 feet of you as an action, forcing it to make a Dexterity saving throw (DC as Focalor's Breath) or take 3d6 lightning damage. If it succeeds it takes half damage. This ability works outdoors, indoors, and even underwater.
    Water Breathing: You can breath water just as well as air.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Post Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    Would you guys mid if I suggest a new template to replace the original one? I know it's a guideline, but we saw it can be pretty dysfunctional.

    This is what I used to build Naberius, hopefully it'll be a little more up to speed with current notes. I encourage deviation from the template if you feel it's needed:
    Spoiler: Vestige Template v0.2
    Show
    NAME
    Title
    ___ Level vestige
    DC:
    Seal:
    Sign:
    Manifestation:
    Granted Abilities: – the section below. at least one of these abilities should be unique and exclusive to the binder.

    PROFICIENCIES
    Any tools, armor, weapons, or languages (but not secret languages) necessary to make use of the class, avoid skill proficiencies at all costs! Those are a rare and valuable commodity to obtain, and given the class has so many moving parts and so much that could go wrong, it is best steer clear of it and trust the binder can manage with the default number of skills like most everyone else.

    1 Ribbon, and/or advantage on theme-appropriate or specific checks. this also includes secret languages but is not limited to it.

    1 situational feature, ideally offering versatility. Some more powerful vestiges may have a safety-net ability instead (I.e. abilities like the Monk's perfect Self, that you can rely on to get you through an adventuring day easier, or aid to your general survivability/stamina.)

    1 at-will ability or cantrip of the appropriate level. Or 2 for 1st level vestiges.as a rule of thumb, it should be reliable, but nothing really abusable.

    2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features, (or spells,) that are level appropriate for the binder's level. One of which can get stronger or be used again at higher levels. high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.

    PACT INFORMATION:
    Roughly 2 reasonably-sized paragraphs in italics containing a retelling of the legend, notable factors that can influence the binding check with the vestige and any miscellaneous information that involves forming a pact with the vestige, as well as the following phrase and table:

    If you make a poor pact with _______, s/he may influence your personality in one of the following ways:

    Influence
    (Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw) (influence A)
    (Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw:) (Influence B)

    I'm wicked tired though rightnnow, I'll get some real work and bigger thoughts done tomorrow, I just thought this might help if anyone wanted to start working on their own vestiges and wants to try my method, but in the end, it's all trial and error.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-06-01 at 05:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I like the new template! Just a few minor comments:

    • You say that the abilities/spells should be "level appropriate for the binder's level" - should that be the vestige's level, (ie. roughly equivalent to a spell of that level, so a 4th-level vestige gets 4th-level spells or something of that power) or did you mean "appropriate to a binder at the level where they gain access to this vestige"? ...Actually, there's not much difference between those two, but still, worth clarifying how to determine what's "level-appropriate".
    • I like the idea of one ability that scales with the binder's level, and one that doesn't. That covers the same kind of angle I was after when I decided on having abilities at half the level as well as the full level.
    • Some vestiges (particularly higher-level ones) may need a broader spread of abilities; perhaps as well as the one or two levelled abilities, they might get one or two at half their level as well. I say this because some of the 3.5 vestiges grant up to six or seven abilities.
    • I agree with your worries about skill proficiencies, and you're right, advantage on the skill check works much better. Part of this comes from me interpreting 3.5's bonus to skill checks as a modifier, hence proficiency, forgetting that in 5e bonuses usually take the form of advantage on the roll. I might be ok with a few vestiges (and I mean at most a handful, mostly in the upper levels) granting the odd skill proficiency (never more than one per vestige) where it's really thematically appropriate.
    • This last point is more of a clarification but on the subject of abilities, where you've got "2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features" I think it's worth noting that not all of them should be once-per-short-rest except in exceptional circumstances - I don't really want a binder to be able to burn out one particular vestige and spend the rest of the day with that vestige being mostly useless. Of course, if the cantrips and proficiencies are good enough, that'll cover it, and there's always renegotiation, so for a few vestiges it'd be fine, but in general they should provide something of a little more power that remains useful all day. At low levels, cantrips are pretty powerful when your top level of spell is only 1st or 2nd, so only having once-per-long-rest features is fine, but an 8th-level vestige that you can exhaust in the first encounter and be left with cantrips for the rest of the day feels kinda wrong. Bear in mind that a binding lasts for 24 hours, so an ability that can only be used once per long rest really means once per binding in most cases.


    That last point reminds me, I should probably clarify at some point whether a vestige's once-per-rest abilities reset when you re-bind them, thus allowing you to use a once-per-rest ability, expel, rebind, and use it again. In short: no, that doesn't work. Technically this is already covered because it says "you can't use this ability again until you complete a rest", but I'd still feel better if somewhere it added "...even if you bind this vestige a second time".

    Could I also ask that the paragraphs of vestige information keep a clean separation between flavour and mechanics? In other words, don't bury something in there about getting advantage on the check in certain conditions or whatever. 5e does a good job of making it fairly obvious what's flavour text and what's rules, so I'd like to follow that example. I'll probably keep all mechanical stuff at the end of that section, next to the bit about the influences on a poor pact. This would also make it easier to produce quick reference cards for players by simply dropping the vestige information part and just adding the influences table.

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    I got a chance to flesh out those archetypes a little. A few features need filling in, but here's what I have so far:

    Binder's Fates
    A binder deals with powerful entities and wields forces that defy the universe to impose his or her will upon them. No mortal flesh or soul can endure this unchanged, and in time a binder finds that they have become more than what they once were. Unlike the boons granted by a vestige, these powers are the binder's own, the result of changes to their very nature.

    Spoiler: Awakened Binder
    Show
    Awakened
    The energies of the void outside the planes are potent and varied, and at each summoning these energies seep from the portal that a binder opens to the beyond. Over time, an Awakened Binder finds that they have gained a residual pool of energy that they can call upon.

    Spellcasting
    When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the sorcerer spell list.

    Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. You learn another sorcerer cantrip of your choice at 8th, 13th and 19th level.

    Spell Slots. The Awakened Binder Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell charm person and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast charm person using either slot.

    Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know two 1st-level sorcerer spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the conjuration and illusion spells on the sorcerer spell list.

    The Spells Known column of the Awakened Binder Spellcasting table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be a conjuration or illusion spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 8th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 7th, 13th, 17th and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

    Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the sorcerer spells you know with another spell of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be a conjuration or illusion spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 7th, 13th, 17th or 20th level.

    Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

    Awakened Binder Spellcasting
    Level Cantrips Known Spells Known 1st 2nd 3rd
    3rd 2 2 2
    4th 2 3 3
    5th 2 3 3
    6th 2 3 3
    7th 2 4 4 1
    8th 3 4 4 1
    9th 3 4 4 1
    10th 3 5 5 2
    11th 3 5 5 2
    12th 3 5 5 2
    13th 4 6 5 2
    14th 4 6 5 2 1
    15th 4 6 5 2 1
    16th 4 6 5 3 1
    17th 4 7 5 3 2
    18th 4 7 5 3 3
    19th 5 7 5 3 3
    20th 5 8 5 3 3

    [3rd]
    At 3rd level,

    [7th]
    At 7th level,

    [13th]
    At 13th level,

    [17th]
    At 17th level,



    Spoiler: Warped Binder
    Show
    Warped
    Hosting beings of such power within one's own body causes physical changes as each vestige seeks to manifest its sign in the binder's flesh. These repeated changes leave the binder's body warped into something not quite natural.

    When you choose this Fate, you gain the ability to manifest your Warped Form. Select one from this list:
    • Horns (bludgeoning)
    • Claws (slashing)
    • Fangs (piercing)


    Once per short rest, you may manifest your Warped Form as a bonus action, allowing the altered nature of your body to express itself. You can remain in your Warped Form for 5 rounds, during which time you gain a natural weapon of the type chosen. Your natural weapon uses a d6 as its damage die and deals the type of damage noted above.

    Skin Shift
    At 3rd level, your Warped Form has a thick hide that can protect you from damage. When you manifest your Warped Form, select a physical damage type: bludgeoning, slashing or piercing. You gain resistance to this damage type while you remain in your Warped Form.

    Versatile Brawler
    At 7th level, you learn to blend the the natural weapons of your Warped Form into the flow of combat. When you use the Attack action, you can make one attack using your natural weapon as a bonus action.

    [13th]
    At 13th level,

    [17th]
    At 17th level,



    Spoiler: Unfettered Binder
    Show
    Unfettered
    In their work with vestiges, binders study magics that pierce the planes and transcend the natural laws of the universe. Some even learn to leave behind their physical form and experience the world as a vestige would.

    Intangible Presence
    At 3rd level, you learn to manipulate the fabric of the planes so that your presence makes less of a mark in the physical world. Once per short rest, you can make yourself indistinct and harder to detect. For one minute, or as long as you maintain concentration (whichever is shortest), you appear as a blurred and partly transparent shape. While this effect lasts, you gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and you can't be tracked by non-magical means. In addition, you weigh half your normal weight, and have advantage on any checks to avoid disturbing objects or triggering traps. However, you have disadvantage on any Strength check made to lift, push, drag or otherwise move an object. Once you use this ability, you can't use it again until you complete a long or short rest.

    Otherworldly Escape
    At 7th level, your knowledge of the nature of existence allows you to alter your reality to avoid harm. When you take damage, you can use your reaction to turn invisible and teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack or cast a spell. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

    [13th]
    At 13th level,
    [mind-control ability of some kind; perhaps a weak enthralling effect]

    Unreality
    At 17th level,
    [ability to become incorporeal for a short duration (probably requiring concentration) in a manner vaguely similar to the spell Etherealness.]



    My reasoning for these follows two different principles. First, most archetypes seem to provide something alongside the primary class mechanic, rather than altering it too much. For example, Warlock's pacts don't modify spellcasting or have much effect on the patron stuff; Rogue's archetypes don't really do much with Sneak Attack, etc. Similarly, I wanted to provide something besides the binding so that the character is less of a one-trick pony. Second, following on from that, I wanted to make sure the binder isn't useless with no vestiges bound. With wizards being able to use cantrips at will even without a spellbook, and various other steps taken to make sure that classes always have something they can do, I really didn't want a binder who hasn't bound anything yet today to revert to being a regular guy with nothing to offer. The weird magics that binders use give plenty of scope for exploring what effect being a binder has on the character themself.

    In terms of what the archetypes do, it's basically a focusing mechanic. Binders are all about versatility, so these archetypes let them specialise into one of three classic roles: caster, brawler, or sneak. Awakened gives you a little casting so that your spell list isn't so very thin, Warped gives you what is essentially Rage Lite so that you can get into melee, and Unfettered gives you stealth and avoidance mechanics to keep out of trouble.

    In particular, I'm not sure what to give the Awakened Binder beside the spells. One of them will probably be the ability to use spells granted by vestiges as if they were on their Spells Known list, so you can use your own spell slots to get extra uses of them. I'm also thinking of adding some control stuff to keep with the flavour of binding things to your will; maybe some travel spells like teleportation or plane shift.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-06-02 at 08:45 AM.

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    EDIT: Ninja'd royally... I've been working all afternoon answering your previous comments... First of all, Thanks for the kind praise! I was hoping it would work better at least across more vestige levels. But if the need arises, I won't be surprised if we made a few more templates by the time the 5e binder reaches playtesting
    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    You say that the abilities/spells should be "level appropriate for the binder's level" - should that be the vestige's level, (ie. roughly equivalent to a spell of that level, so a 4th-level vestige gets 4th-level spells or something of that power) or did you mean "appropriate to a binder at the level where they gain access to this vestige"? ...Actually, there's not much difference between those two, but still, worth clarifying how to determine what's "level-appropriate".
    Good question! As you said, the two options are remarkably similar, yet different. For the most part, I lean towards the latter, since the vestige's aren't solely reliant on spells, and because binders should have level appropriate tools. Note: I haven't the slightest clue how either one would interact with Paladin and ranger spells, that may require testing

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    I like the idea of one ability that scales with the binder's level, and one that doesn't. That covers the same kind of angle I was after when I decided on having abilities at half the level as well as the full level.
    I'm glad you like it! now we have just to figure out the scaling method... XD

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Some vestiges (particularly higher-level ones) may need a broader spread of abilities; perhaps as well as the one or two levelled abilities, they might get one or two at half their level as well. I say this because some of the 3.5 vestiges grant up to six or seven abilities.
    See above remark about having more than 1 template. Frankly, high level play in any edition is not my forte (in my adventures I hardly ever really made it past 7th level.) but I think ranging between 4-6 major abilities is a fair balance regardless of a vestige's level. reserving a higher quantity of abilities to higher level vestiges will render lower-level vestiges nearly pointless and unable to keep up, which would be a shame. Also -More abilities = more work, and I'd like to save ourselves some work if possible, unless we establish a solid work force to divide the labor

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    I agree with your worries about skill proficiencies, and you're right, advantage on the skill check works much better. Part of this comes from me interpreting 3.5's bonus to skill checks as a modifier, hence proficiency, forgetting that in 5e bonuses usually take the form of advantage on the roll. I might be ok with a few vestiges (and I mean at most a handful, mostly in the upper levels) granting the odd skill proficiency (never more than one per vestige) where it's really thematically appropriate.
    If we can agree that the binder could never offer expertise, I can agree to 7th(?), 8th and 9th level vestiges offering a true-blue skill proficiency, since I know a binder won't be able to bind more than 2 such vestiges at once. Also - no save proficiencies... Or at best 1 vestige only, best at really high levels too.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    This last point is more of a clarification but on the subject of abilities, where you've got "2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features" I think it's worth noting that not all of them should be once-per-short-rest except in exceptional circumstances - I don't really want a binder to be able to burn out one particular vestige and spend the rest of the day with that vestige being mostly useless. Of course, if the cantrips and proficiencies are good enough, that'll cover it, and there's always renegotiation, so for a few vestiges it'd be fine, but in general they should provide something of a little more power that remains useful all day. At low levels, cantrips are pretty powerful when your top level of spell is only 1st or 2nd, so only having once-per-long-rest features is fine, but an 8th-level vestige that you can exhaust in the first encounter and be left with cantrips for the rest of the day feels kinda wrong. Bear in mind that a binding lasts for 24 hours, so an ability that can only be used once per long rest really means once per binding in most cases.
    A: a good point. Since you got me thinking about this one :3. A short-or-long rest may be the most flexible option, as either a short rest or a long rest suffice in recharging it, you can probably use abilities at least once more if you are bound for a whole day. In the template's design, I went by the assumption that rest-limited abilities should be a big deal, they are cards the binder can whip out of his sleeve when he needs it (for the most part, if it needed a 5-round cooldown in 3.5, it'll probably be changed to at-will or rest-limited, depending on it's new strength). I was careful to offer through Naberius enough always available options so he can remain useful even after he used those abilities.

    B:Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn
    2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features, (or spells,) that are level appropriate for the binder's level. One of which can get stronger or be used again at higher levels. high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.
    aka "encounter-abilities". I just realized we can also make some abilities at will by limiting their use to Rituals (I wanted to do that with disguise self, except you can't just decide an existing spell will be a ritual if it doesn't say so.)

    That last point reminds me, I should probably clarify at some point whether a vestige's once-per-rest abilities reset when you re-bind them, thus allowing you to use a once-per-rest ability, expel, rebind, and use it again. In short: no, that doesn't work. Technically this is already covered because it says "you can't use this ability again until you complete a rest", but I'd still feel better if somewhere it added "...even if you bind this vestige a second time".
    you can write that down where you explain about how making a pact works. while we're at it, writing down the binder as capable of rituals may open some doors for us. :3 also. - base vestige features' DC should be there, if you haven't wrote it yet, as opposed to writing it on all the vestiges. (Disregard if you already did. I just can't see without refreshing the page and losing this post)

    Could I also ask that the paragraphs of vestige information keep a clean separation between flavour and mechanics? In other words, don't bury something in there about getting advantage on the check in certain conditions or whatever. 5e does a good job of making it fairly obvious what's flavour text and what's rules, so I'd like to follow that example. I'll probably keep all mechanical stuff at the end of that section, next to the bit about the influences on a poor pact. This would also make it easier to produce quick reference cards for players by simply dropping the vestige information part and just adding the influences table.
    I don't know about you, but I would never let a friend who doesn't care about vestige legends play a binder in my vicinity. To me it's as bad as wanting to play an atheist cleric. it plays a huge role in our fondest pact-magic memories.
    That being said, what is it exactly that bothers you, the fact that I wrote things you can do to get on a vestige's good/bad side, that I gave it mechanical support, or because I mixed it all together? I respect your request, I'm just not sure what you mean.

    When this binder takes flight, I eagerly want to try out a lot of creatively variant things that I haven't brought up, because I'm almost convinced you guys would feel much differently about them than I do. Some of the details under Pact Information exist and are there with that in mind.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-06-02 at 10:17 AM.
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

    I like the new template and the subclasses.

    Any comments on my Focalor conversion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn
    high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.
    aka "encounter-abilities".
    Is there precedent for this? I get where you're coming from, but I'd be wary of inventing a whole new recovery mechanic. If there are already reset-on-initiative abilities in 5e, then that's fine, but as far as I'm aware 4e's concept of per-encounter powers became once-per-short-rest in 5e, so I'd rather not reintroduce it and complicate things again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I just realized we can also make some abilities at will by limiting their use to Rituals (I wanted to do that with disguise self, except you can't just decide an existing spell will be a ritual if it doesn't say so.)
    An excellent point. As you've noted, I didn't state that the Binder could cast ritual spells, but seeing how their primary class feature is a ritual, it seems silly to not give them that ability. As for disguise self, there are a bunch of abilities that say something like "you can cast [a spell] but only with a target of [restriction]", or "you cast [spell] without the usual material cost", or "you can cast [spell] but with a duration of [something]" and various other ways of modifying spells slightly, so I don't think there would be a problem with saying "you can cast disguise self as a ritual taking ten minutes" or something to that effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    base vestige features' DC should be there, if you haven't wrote it yet, as opposed to writing it on all the vestiges.
    I haven't worked out suitable DC values for the various levels yet; that's next on my to do list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I don't know about you, but I would never let a friend who doesn't care about vestige legends play a binder in my vicinity. To me it's as bad as wanting to play an atheist cleric. it plays a huge role in our fondest pact-magic memories.
    That being said, what is it exactly that bothers you, the fact that I wrote things you can do to get on a vestige's good/bad side, that I gave it mechanical support, or because I mixed it all together? I respect your request, I'm just not sure what you mean.
    I totally agree, and the binder in my party does indeed pay great attention to the legends and such - it's just that when we're playing, we try to keep everything to hand and not have to dive into sourcebooks because that holds up play. I've even got a little card - kinda like a card from Magic: The Gathering or something similar - with my weapon stats and effects on it. It's just so that we can refer quickly to the rules portion of what we're doing, and if the DM wants to check something we can just hand over a card with the relevant rules and rolls on it.

    As a quick example of what I mean, take this randomly-selected block from the 5e PHB: rogue's Cunning Action. Prerequisites to gain the ability are in green, narrative flavour and plot detail are coloured blue, and rules regarding the mechanics of dice rolls and grid squares are coloured red.

    Cunning Action
    Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.
    Pretty much everything takes this format. When/how do I get this ability, what does it do in roleplay/plot/flavour terms, and how do the rules represent that. No intermixing. It makes it much easier to work out which bits you need to copy out if you want to write up a quick summary on a card, or a spare space on your character sheet. I'm not advocating throwing out the flavour text; I just appreciate the way that 5e makes it easy to extract rules from flavour, and I'd like to emulate that.
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-06-02 at 01:31 PM.

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    This seems super cool. Just one note on the Awakened subclass-it should probably follow the EK/AT progression, or else it's both fairly weak and a pain to calculate in multiclass builds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Is there precedent for this? I get where you're coming from, but I'd be wary of inventing a whole new recovery mechanic. If there are already reset-on-initiative abilities in 5e, then that's fine, but as far as I'm aware 4e's concept of per-encounter powers became once-per-short-rest in 5e, so I'd rather not reintroduce it and complicate things again.
    PHB under classes. It isn't used much, and not directly the way I mentioned. It's mostly used as a late game safety net feature for classes like the monk or battle master fighter. It usually says that if you roll for initiative and have no fuel for your abilities, you get X points/dice back". They built the foundation IMO through those classes, in case they wanted something similar to 4e's encounter-based abilities in the future... Which dates back to pact magic experimenting on making once-per-encounter abilities! BINDCEPTION!

    An excellent point. As you've noted, I didn't state that the Binder could cast ritual spells, but seeing how their primary class feature is a ritual, it seems silly to not give them that ability. As for disguise self, there are a bunch of abilities that say something like "you can cast [a spell] but only with a target of [restriction]", or "you cast [spell] without the usual material cost", or "you can cast [spell] but with a duration of [something]" and various other ways of modifying spells slightly, so I don't think there would be a problem with saying "you can cast disguise self as a ritual taking ten minutes" or something to that effect.
    can you verify this? Up until now, I thought you couldn't get a spell as a ritual if it doesn't explicitly have the [ritual] tag in the spell description...

    I haven't worked out suitable DC values for the various levels yet; that's next on my to do list.
    I hope you don't mean binding DCs, because that's not a priority yet. I mean saving throw DCs from vestiges - let's not dwell on it too much:
    "The DC for any saving throws required by your binder abilities and any abilities and spells granted to you by vestiges is equal to 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma Modifier." Rephrase if necessary. NEXT!

    I totally agree, and the binder in my party does indeed pay great attention to the legends and such - it's just that when we're playing, we try to keep everything to hand and not have to dive into sourcebooks because that holds up play. I've even got a little card - kinda like a card from Magic: The Gathering or something similar - with my weapon stats and effects on it. It's just so that we can refer quickly to the rules portion of what we're doing, and if the DM wants to check something we can just hand over a card with the relevant rules and rolls on it.
    I'll work on that in the future, then. Though for the record, nobody needs to know the legends by heart, it's mostly story material, which IC the Binder will either learn on his own or via an NPC. No flash cards are really required for that.


    Pretty much everything takes this format. When/how do I get this ability, what does it do in roleplay/plot/flavour terms, and how do the rules represent that. No intermixing. It makes it much easier to work out which bits you need to copy out if you want to write up a quick summary on a card, or a spare space on your character sheet. I'm not advocating throwing out the flavour text; I just appreciate the way that 5e makes it easy to extract rules from flavour, and I'd like to emulate that.[/QUOTE]
    You got it, boss!

    @The Doctor: I recommend trying to come up with some new stuff to add to a vestige, as well as replicating the original abilities when possible. Like I did, giving Naberius Vicious Mockery, or the ability to sniff out authority figures. Amon's very annoying special requirements are being developed into giving his host a competitive edge against celestials, fiends and (eventually) his/her fellow binders.
    We got a new template now, I say check if it works for Focalor and add what you think fits to fill in blanks
    Also - avoid flat bonuses and penalties when possible, 5e is very careful with it's math to avoid inflation. Perhaps aura of sadness might let you use your reaction to impose disadvantage on attack rolls against you within 5 feet for the round. Or something - might be strong, not sure, still better than a flat number penalty.

    Lastly, these are very high binding DCs aren't they?

    ----
    @Anaxi: you forgot to put in 4th level spells somewhere, if you have to give a binder normal access to normal spells, at least pay him minimum wage.
    I don't know if I'm that keen on the binder getting permanent "side effects" from his involvement with vestiges. A: because he's already persecuted enough as it is. Having permanent signs is much harder. and if half of what they're saying is true, then eternal damnation is already a big enough side effect. and B: he gets tons of signs from vestiges, and some of which can already be used in combat. This is redundant IMO.
    ---
    I may have said this before, don't remember... I have a different idea for what you could do with subclasses.
    My idea is to focus on a binder's affiliation with pact magic (I.e. there are different career directions a binder might choose to follow) that might double as pact-magic factions in a campaign, which would give the binder class features with a unified theme from early level and throughout mid-levels. It would also reserve some of the vestiges to be accessible only via these subclasses, who share a common color and theme for a binder who favors a specific role.

    I'm thinking of the format being similar to Cleric's Domain (learning a few vestiges who have something in common throughout a set of levels, at least 1 or 2 of which are exclusive to the subclass; gaining a few new abilities the binder could rely on independently from his chosen vestiges, and one that adds a new option to an existing class ability in an exclusive way... Perhaps Pact Augmentation? but that could be the sleep deprivation talking...)

    As of right now, I'm thinking of three subclasses: ______ of the Prince (starring Tenebrous, focusing on dark and demonic powers), ______ of the Emperor (crowning Dantalion and dealing with vestiges and abilities who revolve around magic and mysticism) and the ______ of the Duke (featuring Zagan, focusing freaky changes to the binder's body to take down foes) I will try to build the exclusive star vestiges to be worth the same level, which would make placing fitting them into an archetypes easier :3 another nice thing I could do for bonus points is to work like WotC into offering multiple levels of complexity for whoever wants. This is in the works and in the idea stage presently, I'm posting what I have before it gets any further so I don't get as disappointed if you all say it sucks

    (working on a general name for them, and these names are tentative and all. Also, I'm not at ease with stealing the name "Binder Fates" which I admit is a wicked name. I'm thinking about "Constellations", or "Pledges", but again - it's tentative)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I hope you don't mean binding DCs, because that's not a priority yet. I mean saving throw DCs from vestiges - let's not dwell on it too much:
    "The DC for any saving throws required by your binder abilities and any abilities and spells granted to you by vestiges is equal to 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma Modifier." Rephrase if necessary. NEXT!
    Oh, right. Yeah, DC for vestige ability works just like a spell save. I did mean the binding DCs; I want to get a rough idea of what the baseline is so that as we convert vestiges, we can start thinking about balancing them, and adjusting the pact DC by a point or two is one of the ways I plan to do that. I'll hold off until we can get some archetypes sorted though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Though for the record, nobody needs to know the legends by heart, it's mostly story material, which IC the Binder will either learn on his own or via an NPC. No flash cards are really required for that.
    Indeed. In fact, my notes in the margin include a reminder that there's great plot-hook material here: as I think I've suggested before, a DM could easily say to a binder who's close to levelling up that they uncover rumours or fragments of information about a vestige whose name has long been forgotten, prompting a quest to find a lost temple in which lies the ancient texts of a dead cult, in which the name and seal of a vestige are recorded... or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    you forgot to put in 4th level spells somewhere, if you have to give a binder normal access to normal spells, at least pay him minimum wage.
    I did. I adjusted the spellcasting down a little from Arcane Trickster because the Binder gets spellcasting anyway from the vestiges, but I changed my mind not long after when looking at the spell lists and thinking through what sort of combinations you'd get. The standard 4-level progression should be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I don't know if I'm that keen on the binder getting permanent "side effects" from his involvement with vestiges. A: because he's already persecuted enough as it is. Having permanent signs is much harder. and if half of what they're saying is true, then eternal damnation is already a big enough side effect. and B: he gets tons of signs from vestiges, and some of which can already be used in combat. This is redundant IMO.
    I really like the idea of the binder getting something other than vestiges. Currently, a binder who hasn't had a chance to bind anything yet has veeery little going for them, which I don't like. It's true that some of the things granted by the archetypes as I currently have them may also be granted by vestiges (or something similar, at least) but a) just bind something else, and b) that's why I'm trying to come up with mostly-new things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I may have said this before, don't remember... I have a different idea for what you could do with subclasses.
    My idea is to focus on a binder's affiliation with pact magic (I.e. there are different career directions a binder might choose to follow) that might double as pact-magic factions in a campaign, which would give the binder class features with a unified theme from early level and throughout mid-levels. It would also reserve some of the vestiges to be accessible only via these subclasses, who share a common color and theme for a binder who favors a specific role.

    I'm thinking of the format being similar to Cleric's Domain (learning a few vestiges who have something in common throughout a set of levels, at least 1 or 2 of which are exclusive to the subclass; gaining a few new abilities the binder could rely on independently from his chosen vestiges, and one that adds a new option to an existing class ability in an exclusive way... Perhaps Pact Augmentation? but that could be the sleep deprivation talking...)

    As of right now, I'm thinking of three subclasses: ______ of the Prince (starring Tenebrous, focusing on dark and demonic powers), ______ of the Emperor (crowning Dantalion and dealing with vestiges and abilities who revolve around magic and mysticism) and the ______ of the Duke (featuring Zagan, focusing freaky changes to the binder's body to take down foes) I will try to build the exclusive star vestiges to be worth the same level, which would make placing fitting them into an archetypes easier :3 another nice thing I could do for bonus points is to work like WotC into offering multiple levels of complexity for whoever wants. This is in the works and in the idea stage presently, I'm posting what I have before it gets any further so I don't get as disappointed if you all say it sucks
    I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of limiting vestige availability... when you liken it to Cleric Domains, I think it sounds alright - most vestiges available to everyone, just one or two per level that are restricted... except that 2 per level with 3 archetypes is 6 per level, which is actually all the vestiges there are at some levels. Most levels, in fact. The other thing is that with things like Cleric Domains, there are other spellcasting classes who can access those spells, whereas Binder is the only one who uses vestiges.

    One thing that did occur to me is that Warlock gets two options: their pact, and their patron. So now I can't help wondering whether it'd be too complex to have both. You could always have a "core" set of vestiges, and then have variants that you can pick, whereupon you lose access to some of the "core" vestiges, and gain access to some special ones in their place. That makes it less about building up the character, and more about taking an already fully fleshed out character and modifying them. Doing it this way also lets you try a vestige out at an earlier level, before the point where you choose your "domain" and lose access to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    (working on a general name for them, and these names are tentative and all. Also, I'm not at ease with stealing the name "Binder Fates" which I admit is a wicked name. I'm thinking about "Constellations", or "Pledges", but again - it's tentative)
    Yeah... I like naming things "Pledges" works nicely - there's a nice link to "pact", and thematically "pledge" is also a kinda watered-down version of "Oath" (as in Paladin) which implies a code of conduct, which gives a nice explanation as to why you've decided that certain vestiges are off-limits.

    As a side note, Warped Binder is mechanically following Knight Of The Sacred Seal quite heavily, using inspiration from 5e's Barbarian to work out how those mechanics convert over. Flavour-wise, it's totally different though. Awakened Binder aims to emulate Anima Mage, though this time the flavour is a pretty faithful conversion while the mechanics are somewhat different. Unfettered Binder is mostly new, filling the most obvious third role that's not covered by the other two.

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    I might have misspoke, though I'm my defense it was past 1AM when a I last posted
    I'd like to change saying 2 exclusives, in my reality these subclasses won't offer more than 4 vestiges between levels 2/3 and 9, and I myself am considering if they all need to be exclusive, or some are more easily obtained, of if I should take an Eldritch Blast-inspired route, and incentivize binding these certain vestiges (In which case only the stars Dantalion, Tenebrous and Zagan would have their respective pledges as a prerequisite/special requirement). The subclasses themselves will likely work around the levels you used, if those are the levels you need.

    I love the idea of plot-hooking vestiges. Harder to go wrong building upon what people have already been doing anyway.

    Based on what I remember from the old "make a vestige" articles, the binding DC could be mostly based on how often we want a given vestige's sign and influence to come into play. I don't know if that's what you want to do, but it sounds like a simpler approach :3

    Where do you stand on free extra attack at binder 5, Anaxi?

    I should mention, I agree that while the binder might start her path as mundane among mortal the binder should relinquish any right to the label "commoner" within the first 3 levels, with or without his vestiges. it's because of this I aim that my pledges/cults/??? Would give the binder abilities that would be handy in general, but better when bound to any of these vestiges, which is a lot easier to coordinate when you
    Build it all from scratch

    @the warlock pact: I love the warlock, I love the binder, but I feel going by that approach is "versatility overkill" gotta keep it simple enough not to overwhelm novice players
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I'd like to change saying 2 exclusives, in my reality these subclasses won't offer more than 4 vestiges between levels 2/3 and 9, and I myself am considering if they all need to be exclusive, or some are more easily obtained, of if I should take an Eldritch Blast-inspired route, and incentivize binding these certain vestiges (In which case only the stars Dantalion, Tenebrous and Zagan would have their respective pledges as a prerequisite/special requirement). The subclasses themselves will likely work around the levels you used, if those are the levels you need.
    Ooh, likening it to Eldritch Blast gives me an idea... If we do have subclasses based around particular vestiges, then they could offer vestige-specific pact augmentations just like how warlocks get invocations that are restricted to a particular pact or patron. So, while the other pact augmentations require you to have a vestige bound to make them work, these ones would need a specific vestige, not just any one.

    (On a related note, I've been thinking of having pact augmentations that require a vestige of a certain level, rather than any vestige. Thoughts?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I should mention, I agree that while the binder might start her path as mundane among mortal the binder should relinquish any right to the label "commoner" within the first 3 levels, with or without his vestiges. it's because of this I aim that my pledges/cults/??? Would give the binder abilities that would be handy in general, but better when bound to any of these vestiges, which is a lot easier to coordinate when you
    Build it all from scratch
    All I'm saying is that given what we have so far, what does a binder without vestiges have over a commoner? I guess their ability scores are above commoner level, and the HP they get at each level, and the base proficiencies they get at 1st level, but other than that... nothing. No vestiges means no pact augmentations, so not even those. Maybe some feats, if the DM is allowing feats (so easy to forget they're a variant rule in 5e, after feat-heavy 3.5). Thus, I want to give it some features that don't rely on vestiges at all.

    I'm so torn between the two options, I might end up just finishing the three I posted, then building your vestige-set idea, and presenting both for people to choose from. They're so different, I think there's totally room for both. In fact, I have ideas for two other things that use vestiges; at one point "binder" was going to be a subclass of something else, but really the other two subclasses from that idea could be full classes of their own. In time, vestiges could be a common feature of multiple classes, so that vestige/pact magic is an actual group just like arcane magic and divine magic, rather than just a thing that one class does... But that's something for another day
    Last edited by anaximander19; 2015-06-03 at 05:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaximander19 View Post
    Ooh, likening it to Eldritch Blast gives me an idea... If we do have subclasses based around particular vestiges, then they could offer vestige-specific pact augmentations just like how warlocks get invocations that are restricted to a particular pact or patron. So, while the other pact augmentations require you to have a vestige bound to make them work, these ones would need a specific vestige, not just any one.

    (On a related note, I've been thinking of having pact augmentations that require a vestige of a certain level, rather than any vestige. Thoughts?)
    The way I'm thinking of my archetypes is that binding with any of an archetype's vestiges let's you enjoy a unique pact augmentation (i.e. Pledge/Cult of the Prince might have access to a PA that works like–/in sync with– darkness, and the grouped vestiges get an upper hand with it. I have a few ideas already. But save room for me to implement Darkness for now.
    vestige level seems like a handy prereq for stronger PAs that would be abusable if over-taken. Let's be a little careful not to step on eachother's toes if possible.

    All I'm saying is that given what we have so far, what does a binder without vestiges have over a commoner? I guess their ability scores are above commoner level, and the HP they get at each level, and the base proficiencies they get at 1st level, but other than that... nothing. No vestiges means no pact augmentations, so not even those. Maybe some feats, if the DM is allowing feats (so easy to forget they're a variant rule in 5e, after feat-heavy 3.5). Thus, I want to give it some features that don't rely on vestiges at all.
    Inb4: where do you stand on giving Extra Attack at Binder 5?

    I respect the notion, I'm just less keen on the proposed execution (unfettered Binder seems fine at a glance, haven't got to thoroughly inspect it. We have creative differences over the exact execution, despite our ideas comparable :3.
    No feats - it's an optional rule I don't want to depend on. >_<

    I'm so torn between the two options, I might end up just finishing the three I posted, then building your vestige-set idea, and presenting both for people to choose from. They're so different, I think there's totally room for both. In fact, I have ideas for two other things that use vestiges; at one point "binder" was going to be a subclass of something else, but really the other two subclasses from that idea could be full classes of their own. In time, vestiges could be a common feature of multiple classes, so that vestige/pact magic is an actual group just like arcane magic and divine magic, rather than just a thing that one class does... But that's something for another day
    I liked everything you said here, especially about our archetypes potentially co-existing. I'll try not to step on your toes. Mind you the warped Binder's sign weapons should at at least have a more powerful damage die than Amon's Ram horns, which I can't decide if it's a d6 or d8.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
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    I've decided to test myself by making a level 1 vestige. They're the hardest to make, balance-wise.

    Spoiler: Amon
    Show

    AMON
    The Void Before the Altar
    1st Level vestige
    DC: 14
    Sign: You grow the curling horns of a ram.
    Manifestation: Amon manifests in a burst of black smoke, howling foul curses at his summoner. He possesses a black wolf’s body with a ram’s head and a serpent for a tail. His mouth is filled with sharp teeth, and fire escapes it when he speaks.
    Granted Abilities:

    Darkvision: You have darkvision while bound to Amon.

    Fire Breath: You can vomit forth a line of fire as a dragonborn. Once you do so you must take a long rest to do so again.

    Ram Attack: The horns you gain as Amon's sign function as a natural weapon that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit. [(I forgot if you can charge in 5e, so ignore this part if you can't) It deals an additional 1d8 damage if you charge with it.]

    ETERNAL RIVALRY
    You have advantage on all ability check and attack roll contests made against other binder. When you reach 13th level, the benefits of this ability also apply to contest rolls made against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends or undead, as well as mortals possessed by these creatures or have formed a pact with them. [Thanks to Zahn for this ability!]

    PACT INFORMATION:
    Scholars claim that Amon is what remains of the personality of a god who died of neglect millennia ago. Once worshiped by thousands, Amon eventually lost his faithful to more responsive deities. His will was strong enough, though, to resist eternal sleep on the Astral Plane. Since his demise, his half-existence as a vestige seems to have dramatically changed his appearance and personality. Once a calm and wise protector, a god of light and law, Amon is now a foultempered and hateful spirit.

    Last edited by The_Doctor; 2015-06-16 at 10:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore #Shocking revelation.
    Binders are fun!
    My 5e Vestiges: Amon, Dahlver-Nar, Focalor, Primus, Marchosias, Halphax, and some other non-canon ones.

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