The Bard Killers - Suggestions?

[Lord Tataraus]

So, I'm going to run an "adventure" for a party of bards. First of all, I hate bards and my players know this, but aren't to suspicous yet. They realize that I will throw all sorts of stuff at them, but they don't know I'm making an optimized bard-killer party. What I need is suggestions for what classes/PrCs the anti-bard party should be. The bards will be 17th level (with leadership, meaning cohorts) and the anti-bards will be 18th level. There are 4-5 bards, so I want 4-5 anti-bards.

So, I was thinking something like this:
- Half-Orc Ranger/Occult Slayer, TWF-style with the Arcane Hunter class feature from Complete Mage.
- Darfellan Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, TWF, leap attack... basicly the ultimate charger
- Halfling Rouge/Scout, this is knid of ify, but I like the feat in Complete Mage to stack skirmish and snaek attack
- Dwarf Crusader, the tank and combat healer
- Human Wilder, maybe with Anarchic Adept (I think thats what it is) from Complete Psion.

Almost all wizards books and dragon magazine is allowed.
I want suggested optimization for builds, but not cheese and no arcane casters

[Roethke]

Well, while I do feel somewhat dirty aiding and abetting the destruction of a cherished class of mine, I'd suggest you use things immune to mind-affecting spells. Otherwise your anti-bard party will most likely suddenly and mysteriously find itself with disturbingly pro-bard sympathies.

[Tor the Fallen]

Dragons casting silence.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Seriously, if you hate bards this much, why let them make bards in the first place?

And, now that they have their characters, I think it is the epitome of bad DMing to go out of your way to make their lives miserable.

[JellyPooga]

Well, while I do feel somewhat dirty aiding and abetting the destruction of a cherished class of mine, I'd suggest you use things immune to mind-affecting spells. Otherwise your anti-bard party will most likely suddenly and mysteriously find itself with disturbingly pro-bard sympathies.

Yeah just throw a bunch of Undead at them. Nerfs half their spells. Take the party you just suggested...make them all Necropolitan...job's a good 'un

[Tor the Fallen]

Dragons with sonic breath weapons?


Necropolitan dragons with class levels and deafening breath weapons!

[Starbuck_II]

So, I'm going to run an "adventure" for a party of bards. First of all, I hate bards and my players know this, but aren't to suspicous yet. They realize that I will throw all sorts of stuff at them, but they don't know I'm making an optimized bard-killer party. What I need is suggestions for what classes/PrCs the anti-bard party should be. The bards will be 17th level (with leadership, meaning cohorts) and the anti-bards will be 18th level. There are 4-5 bards, so I want 4-5 anti-bards.

So, I was thinking something like this:
- Half-Orc Ranger/Occult Slayer, TWF-style with the Arcane Hunter class feature from Complete Mage.
- Darfellan Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, TWF, leap attack... basicly the ultimate charger
- Halfling Rouge/Scout, this is knid of ify, but I like the feat in Complete Mage to stack skirmish and snaek attack
- Dwarf Crusader, the tank and combat healer
- Human Wilder, maybe with Anarchic Adept (I think thats what it is) from Complete Psion.

Almost all wizards books and dragon magazine is allowed.
I want suggested optimization for builds, but not cheese and no arcane casters

So all the enemies are at a higher level.
Are the enemies gonna be Elite Stats or higher?

Bards at level 18 can produce very nice effects. FB ...wow, once he frenzies, they should go invisible and watch the Frenzied dude kill his party members.
Since he kills everyone he sees as they are enemies (unless makes will save) and he can't see the "old enemies" he will attack the "new enemies" his former allies.

At least that is what I'd do if everyone knew that spell (and all Bards can).

Just thought I'd comment on use of FB.

[Lord Tataraus]

Well I don't want nerf the bards so much, I want an epic fight that they *could* win if they use really good tactics. The reasoning for the anti-bards is that they are haters of the bards' band. They will expect a TPK, but it will be fun for them (I know my players well), this isn't as evil as it seems. I want the anti-bards to be powerful, but not immune or even extremely resistant to the bards abilities, but I don't want them to be useless against them.

Also, I guess I was a little strong at first, I don't hate bards as much as dislike them. I will never play one and I don't have much respect for them, but I can live with a player running a bard, I'll just expect him to be good at RPing it and not being annoying.

This is designed to be fun for everyone, and if they win great, if the lose it will be worth it.

Edit: @Starbuck, they antis will be designed with 28 point-buy compared to the 32 point-buy of the bards. The bards will be optimized and have optimized cohorts, so that's why the antis are a level higher. Also, their equipment won't be as powerful.

[Tor the Fallen]

So all the enemies are at a higher level.
Are the enemies gonna be Elite Stats or higher?

Bards at level 18 can produce very nice effects. FB ...wow, once he frenzies, they should go invisible and watch the Frenzied dude kill his party members.
Since he kills everyone he sees as they are enemies (unless makes will save) and he can't see the "old enemies" he will attack the "new enemies" his former allies.

At least that is what I'd do if everyone knew that spell (and all Bards can).

Just thought I'd comment on use of FB.

Frenzy isn't a spell, and knowledge of frenzy would likely be a DC 30 knowledge (??) check.

[Catch]

They're bards. Considered one of the most gimped classes out there, and best as a support class to a party of "optimized" characters.

Five characters with lousy BAB, spell selection, HP and overall effectiveness? Not hard. Personally, I'd just exploit their low fortitude saves.

[Rahdjan]

Frenzy isn't a spell, and knowledge of frenzy would likely be a DC 30 knowledge (??) check.

I think he meant everyone knew about the spell invisibility. Invisibility = win vs Frenzied Beserker

[Telonius]

EDIT. Okay, I'm really not sure this is a good idea, but if everybody's having fun ....

Suggestion 2: If you absolutely must go through with this, or if you have found the gold mine of players that really don't care if their characters die, follow the suggestions above. Another suggestion: Clerics casting Deafness.

What you're really going to have to watch out for is the cohort selection. If they all have Leadership, there's a good chance that you'll be fighting a fully fleshed-out adventuring party, level 15. Kill the Wizard cohort first, then cast Silence. Other primary casters follow. Bear in mind that, while the party won't be able to cast in the Silenced areas, it's possible that you won't be able to either, if you're not well-prepared.

Speaking of Wizards, I notice a lack of arcane casting in your party. I don't know all that much about psionics, so it's possible your Wilder can fill in that role. If that's not the case, you need to fix this. Wizard spells can be prepared Silenced, and you may need to ready a Counterspell against some clever Bard who's trying to cast Dispel Magic on your Silences.

[Tor the Fallen]

I think he meant everyone knew about the spell invisibility. Invisibility = win vs Frenzied Beserker

How would the bards know what a FB was? Metagaming?

[Telonius]

Frenzy isn't a spell, and knowledge of frenzy would likely be a DC 30 knowledge (??) check.

Five level 17 bards would be able to come up with something on it. At least one of them would roll an 11 or better (assuming they all had the Knowledge History syngergy).

[daggaz]

How would the bards know what a FB was? Metagaming?

Umm... its called 'bardic lore.' There are five of them, at level 17. At least one of them should be able to make the roll. Not to mention, going invisible when some guy with bloodshot eyes charges you screaming with a giant axe while foaming at the mouth isn't exactly metagaming. Its SOP for any bard who doesn't want his ass handed to him at lvl three.

[Saph]

This feels like shooting fish in a barrel . . .

Well, if you want to make it actually fun for the players, rather than just lethal, a bunch of enemies that don't do huge damage but have a lot of silence effects. The bards have to get outside the silent area long enough to get spells off to turn the tide of the battle.

If you don't want the players to have fun, a few wizards or sorcerers casting Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm should fry the bards pretty quick.

- Saph

[Tor the Fallen]

Umm... its called 'bardic lore.' There are five of them, at level 17. At least one of them should be able to make the roll. Not to mention, going invisible when some guy with bloodshot eyes charges you screaming with a giant axe while foaming at the mouth isn't exactly metagaming. Its SOP for any bard who doesn't want his ass handed to him at lvl three.

"Bardic Knowledge

A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places."

I don't see "know a class feature" anywhere in there.

[Aquillion]

"Bardic Knowledge

A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places."

I don't see "know a class feature" anywhere in there.

The notable person in this case is "raving loony foaming-at-mouth guy trying to hit you with axe", and the DC to figure out that you don't want him to see you is 0.

[asqwasqw]

Silence is your friend... I second the necromancer route. Have a giant army of undead advancing upon the bards, watching as the cower in fear.

[Leush]

This feels like shooting fish in a barrel . . .

Well, if you want to make it actually fun for the players, rather than just lethal, a bunch of enemies that don't do huge damage but have a lot of silence effects. The bards have to get outside the silent area long enough to get spells off to turn the tide of the battle.

If you don't want the players to have fun, a few wizards or sorcerers casting Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm should fry the bards pretty quick.

- Saph

This is actually a good idea if you do want them to have fun. Since bards' countersong is a very effective counterspelling tool for Wail of the Banshee.

[Saph]

This is actually a good idea if you do want them to have fun. Since bards' countersong is a very effective counterspelling tool for Wail of the Banshee.

How are they going to know to start the countersong before the Wail spell goes off? And if they've started a countersong already, what's to stop the spellcaster from casting something else, making the countersong useless?

Countersong's one of those abilities where by the time you know that you should be using it, it's usually too late.

- Saph

[Annarrkkii]

Tanglefoot bags + low strength bards + silence spells = WIN.

That said, I do not approve of either you hating bards or you intentionally designing campaigns to beat the stuffing out of your players for playing a class you don't like. That's just unkind.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Two things:

1. Readying an action to Countersong isn't a bad idea if you know the other guy's got a Wail of the Banshee in his bag of tricks. I'd also consider that to be something that probably shouldn't be a surprise in most games - it strikes me as bad form, to the same degree that I consider hurling dragons and the tarrasque into monster closets is.
2. Silence won't necessarily stop a bunch of bards. Complete Adventurer (which I'd say is pretty much a must-have if you're going to be running multiple bards) includes Joyful Noise, a Bard-only spell which negates magical silence. At least one member of the band should know it, if not have a few scrolls sitting around.

[Da Beast]

- Darfellan Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, TWF, leap attack... basicly the ultimate charger

Two weapon fighting is a bad idea. Give him a greatsword instead. Be careful, a leap attacking FB could prbably kill a bard in one hit.

[Lord Tataraus]

Two weapon fighting is a bad idea. Give him a greatsword instead. Be careful, a leap attacking FB could prbably kill a bard in one hit.

Good point, I don't want to end the battle quickly, I want it to last.

@Annarrkkii: I have a very good reason for having the players play bards, not because I dislike them (directly). Its just, I want to have an extremely hard battle that is designed to kill them to see how the survive. I need to take the attitude of trying to make it a TPK for this to work. Also, the players can't directly know what I'm trying to do, but can't go into it unprepared. Therefore, I am having them play a class they all know I don't like, making the suspicious enough to be prepared for the worst. This is more or less a test of the players' tactics and I must have the mindset of the enemy (i.e. I will win).

[ocato]

Actually, make them face another party of bards... Countersong their buff songs, dispel their buffs and their debuffs on your guys, pretty much you can do/undo everything they do, so it turns into a slapping match. Then make your fifth party member a barbarian or something and watch him club them.

[asqwasqw]

Actually, make them face another party of bards... Countersong their buff songs, dispel their buffs and their debuffs on your guys, pretty much you can do/undo everything they do, so it turns into a slapping match. Then make your fifth party member a barbarian or something and watch him club them.

I like that. Make them gothic bards who dress in black leather, dye their hair, and carry around guitars, drum sets, and magic sticks that make them speak louder. Give them a few classes in barbarian so they can rage after they sing.

[Vyker]

Dirge singers! Throw goths at them!

[Mewtarthio]

If any bard takes Perfrom (comedy), kill him first. Then kill his corpse. Then take away a single finger, Resurrect him somewhere else, and throw him into a Sphere of Annihilation. Then True Resurrect him, lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.

[asqwasqw]

No, symbol of pain causes more agony. Make em suffer, not die.