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    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default The Champion (Base Class)

    The Champion

    Yeah, it's sorta like that.

    Description
    Adventures: Champions go on adventures to further their chosen cause or to acquire resources which they may then use to work towards their chosen goal. In addition, most champions recognize that sometimes the best way to solve a difficult problem is to wait for a better chance to do so, and may take breaks from working on their dedicated cause to do some other good (or evil) in the world.
    Religion: Champions do not need to affiliate themselves with a religion, and many do not do so beyond token respect. Those who wish to support a particular faith usually become paladins or clerics. However, champions often find themselves working along members of these classes when their goals align with that of a particular church.
    Background/Races: A champion can be made out of anyone, from the lowest peasant boy wishing death to his oppressors, to the leader of a demon army seeking to destroy their celestial foes. Where there is a cause worth fighting for, there will be a champion fighting for it.
    Other Classes: Champions work well with most other classes when their goals are compatible. However, they are sometimes at odds with arcane spellcasters who seek personal power above all else and with clerics and paladins more devoted to their church than to its ideals.
    Role: The champion is a main battle tank, dominating fights with their strong debuff and damage-over-time presence rather than through raw high-rate damage output. They present enough of a threat that most enemies will attack the champion first, and those who choose not to can be convinced otherwise through several of the champion's abilities. Outside of combat, the champion's skills can make them effective negotiators or sources of obscure knowledge.

    Spoiler: TO DO LIST
    Show
    • Determine a balanced and effective version of Aura of Might; current consensus is that it is too strong early and/or too easy to apply
    • Think harder about whether the single-target Fighting Challenge should allow a save
    • More archetypes and prestige classes?



    Game Rule Information
    Abilities: Charisma powers many of the Champion's magical abilities, including how often some of their Vindications can be used and determining save DCs. As a combat class, Constitution is important for a Champion, especially because their role is to draw enemy fire while their allies bring foes to their knees. In addition, both Strength and Dexterity are important, with one more than the other depending on the champion's combat style. Most Champions will be strength-based due to their natural power when at the front lines of a battle.
    Alignment: Any. Champions attach themselves to specific causes, both noble (such as bringing low oppressive regimes) and vile (such as slaying every elf in existence). When one task is complete (which, given how broad many champions' goals are, is a rare occurrence), they find another one that they deem worthy of their aid.
    Hit Die: d12.
    Class Skills: The Champion's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Perception, (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
    Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Level BAB Fortitude Reflex Will Class Features
    1 +1 +2 +0 +2 Resolve, Vindication, Aura of Might
    2 +2 +3 +0 +3 Divine Grace
    3 +3 +3 +1 +3 Paragon's Aura (Courage)
    4 +4 +4 +1 +4 Vindication, Emanation (1d6/10 ft)
    5 +5 +4 +1 +4 Aura of Might (Improved)
    6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Paragon's Aura (Resolve)
    7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Vindication
    8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Stalwart, Emanation (2d6/15 ft)
    9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Paragon's Aura (Persistence)
    10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Vindication
    11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Wings of Glory
    12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Paragon's Aura (Clarity), Emanation (3d6, 20 ft)
    13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Vindication
    14 +14/+9+4 +9 +4 +9 Iron Soul
    15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Paragon's Aura (Faith)
    16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Vindication, Emanation (4d6, 25 ft)
    17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Appeal
    18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Paragon's Aura (Righteousness)
    19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Vindication
    20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Ascension, Emanation (5d6, 30 ft)

    Class Features
    Resolve (Su):
    Every champion has a pool of Resolve which is used to power some of their abilities. A champion has a number of points of Resolve equal to 1/2 their champion level + their Charisma modifier. As long as a champion has one or more points of Resolve, they benefit from the effects of Endurance and Diehard. Vindications with ongoing effects do not function while the champion is unconscious or dead.

    Vindications
    Whenever a Champion learns a new Vindication, they gain one of the abilities below. Vindications that require a saving throw have a save DC equal to 10 + 1/2 champion level + Charisma modifier.

    Spoiler: Vindications
    Show
    Fighting Challenge (Ex):
    You shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the fighting challenge. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.
    As a swift action, you can expend one point of Resolve to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your HD minus 2 to make Will saves. A champion may alternately target a single enemy within 100 feet regardless of CR, in which case a save is not allowed.
    Creatures that fail this save (or that are the sole targets) are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect’s area.
    An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the fighting challenge ends for that specific target.
    The effect of a fighting challenge last for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any). Whether a creature fails or succeeds on its save against your fighting challenge (or if it is selected as a single target), it can only be targeted by this effect once per day.

    Expanded Auras (Su):
    The Paragon's Aura effects of a champion with this Vindication apply to all allies within the champion's emanation radius.

    Smite (Su):
    At any point during a combat, a champion with this Vindication can mark an actively hostile enemy with this ability as a swift action with no Resolve cost. They may mark a new enemy as a swift action; this removes the mark from any previously marked enemies. Once per encounter, if a marked enemy deals damage to one of the champion's allies while either the marked enemy or the damaged ally are within the champion's Emanation, the champion may immediately spend one point of resolve to smite the enemy, dealing 1d6/champion level points of untyped damage to the marked enemy (this does not require an action). This damage cannot be blocked, prevented, mitigated, or reduced in any way. If the target has more hit dice than the ally they damaged, the number of damage dice is increased by the difference between the enemy's HD and the ally's HD. For example, if a 20th-level champion marks the Tarrasque (48 HD), who then chooses to attack a 1st-level human commoner (1 HD) while both are within the champion's Emanation, the champion may then smite the Tarrasque for 67d6 damage. The champion does not count as their own ally for the purpose of this ability. A marked enemy is aware of the champion's ability to smite them, and the conditions under which it can be done. A marked enemy cannot be magically compelled to attack an ally of the champion. If they are under the influence of a compulsion effect that allows a saving throw, they may immediately make another save to throw off the effect if they are ordered to attack an ally of a champion who has marked them. On a failed save they attack the champion instead. This ability cannot be used outside of combat.

    Scatter the Weak (Su):
    When a champion spends a standard action and one point of Resolve to activate this Vindication, all enemies within the champion's Emanation radius must make a Will save. If they fail, they must spend their next turn moving as far from the champion as possible by any means necessary, and may not take any other actions that turn. They do not need to move in a straight line, and choose their path on their own (and will thus not be likely to run off of cliffs or into dangerous areas). If they are unable to leave the area, they must instead move as far from the champion as they can. Once they have done so, they cower for the rest of their action. This ability does not affect enemies with more class levels than the champion has Hit Dice. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.

    Cut Them Down (Ex):
    When a champion damages an enemy with an attack, they may spend one point of Resolve to mark them with this ability. For the remainder of combat, allies of the champion gain a morale bonus on attack and damage rolls against the marked enemy equal to the champion's Charisma modifier. The champion does not count as their own ally for the purpose of this ability.

    Aura of Grace (Su):
    When this Vindication is activated, which can be done as an immediate action and costs 1 point of Resolve, allies within 10 feet gain the champion's Charisma modifier as a morale bonus to saving throws. Allies who enter the area gain the bonus immediately, and allies who leave the area retain the bonus for 1 round. A champion does not count as their own ally for the purposes of this effect. This effect lasts for one minute.

    Weather the Storm (Su):
    When activated, this Vindication grants all allies within the champion's Emanation radius resistance to acid, cold, electricity, or fire (selected at the time of activation) equal to the champion's level plus the champion's Charisma modifier. This costs one point of Resolve, requires an immediate action, and lasts for one minute. Allies who enter the area gain the resistance immediately, and allies who leave the area retain the resistance for 1 round.

    Healing Touch (Su):
    A champion with this Vindication can spend one point of Resolve to gain one use of the Lay on Hands ability of a paladin of their class level. They do not gain any mercies.

    Touch of Death (Su):
    A champion with this Vindication can spend one point of Resolve to gain one use of the Touch of Corruption ability of an antipaladin of their class level. They do not gain any cruelties.

    Spiteful Retribution (Su):
    Once per round, when an enemy within the champion's Aura of Might hits an ally also within the champion's Aura of Might, the champion may deal damage to that enemy equal to the amount dealt by the champion's Emanation. This damage is untyped.

    Watchful Protector (Ex):
    When an ally other than you within your reach would be struck by the melee attack of an enemy, a champion may expend an attack of opportunity or one point of Resolve to attempt to block the attack. The champion makes an attack roll against the enemy whose attack they are attempting to block; if the champion's attack roll indicates a hit, the enemy's attack misses (no damage is dealt to the targeted enemy by this Vindication). This Vindication may only be used once per round, but does not require an action to use.

    Intercession (Ex):
    When a willing ally of a champion with this vindication would be attacked by the melee attack of an enemy, the champion may activate it as an immediate action to reposition both themselves and their ally if they are within one single move's range of the ally. The champion moves to occupy the space of their ally, and the ally moves to any adjacent space. Neither movement provokes attacks of opportunity. The enemy attack is then resolved as normal but with the champion as the target. This vindication has no cost, but can only be used on a particular ally once per combat.

    Wrathful Gaze (Su):
    A champion can activate this ability as a standard action at the cost of one point of Resolve to create an aura of terror for one minute. All creatures within 30 feet must make a Will save (the champion may designate any number of targets to be immune to this particular instance of Wrathful Gaze. Enemies with HD less than or equal to the champion's class level who fail their saves become frightened, while those who succeed are instead shaken. Enemies with more HD than the champion's class level are shaken on a failed save and suffer no ill effects on a successful save. Frightened enemies who move more than 30 feet away from the champion become shaken for the remainder of the duration. Creatures who were not within 30 feet of the champion when the effect was activated must immediately make a save upon entering the area of this effect unless the champion deems them immune to this instance of Wrathful Gaze. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

    Steadfast Guardian (Su):
    A champion with this Vindication may activate as an immediate action by spending one point of resolve. When they do so, they select an ally within their Aura of Might; for one minute, the ally may make any saving throws using either their own modifiers or the champion's modifiers. In addition, when that ally is attacked, they may use either their own Armor Class or the champion's Armor Class to determine whether they are struck.

    Versatile Emanation (Su):
    Each time a champion with this Vindication activates their Emanation, they may choose a damage type from the following: acid, cold, electricity, fire, bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. This overrides the normal restriction.

    Bonus Feat (Ex):
    At any level where a champion would learn a Vindication, they may instead learn a bonus combat feat. They only gain the benefits of this feat (and of any feats it is used as a prerequisite for) as long as they have one or more points of Resolve.


    Aura of Might (Ex)
    Enemies who have damaged an ally other than the champion within the last two rounds and who are within a radius centered on the champion equal to the champion's reach receive a -3 penalty on their attack rolls to hit allies of the champion. This penalty does not apply to attacks against the champion. Enemies subject to this aura are aware of its effects and the conditions under which they apply. At 5th level, this penalty increases to -5 and the radius of this effect increases by 5 feet. This ability does not function if the champion is unconscious, dead, or otherwise unable to threaten an area.

    Divine Grace:
    A champion of 2nd level or higher gains a bonus equal to their Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws.

    Paragon's Aura (Su):
    Courage: At 3rd level, a champion gains the Divine Courage ability. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions only while the champion is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Spoiler: Divine Courage (credit to T. G. Oskar)
    Show
    Divine Courage:
    Whenever a Champion with this ability is subject to a fear effect, she draws from her reserves of courage and faces it. A shaken champion negates the penalties and actually gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks against the source of fear; a frightened champion furthermore ignores the compulsion to run away and ignores difficult terrain and other natural impediments when drawing near the enemy; a panicked champion gains a +2 bonus to Armor Class and never cowers (thus, it may act even if there is no chance to escape, but may only target or act against the source of her fear). Penalties to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks still apply on the champion for any creature of object that is not the source of fear (except for cowering). If the champion manages to defeat or destroy the source of fear, this condition is removed, as is the fear effect.

    Resolve: At 6rd level, a champion becomes immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects. This ability functions only while the champion is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Persistence: At 9rd level, a champion becomes immune to disease and poison. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against disease and poison. This includes supernatural diseases and magical poisons. Allies of the champion only receive this bonus while the champion is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead, but an unconscious champion is still immune to all diseases and poisons.

    Clarity: At 12th level, a champion becomes immune to figments, patterns, and phantasms. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against figments, patterns, and phantasms. This ability functions only while the champion is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Faith: At 15th level, a champion's weapons are treated as having the same alignment as the champion for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. Any attack made against an enemy within 10 feet of her is treated as sharing the champion's alignment for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. This ability functions only while the champion is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Righteousness: At 18th level, a champion gains immunity to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects. This ability functions only while the champion is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Emanation (Su)
    At 4th level, a champion is able to surround themselves in a field of energy. Activating this ability is a swift action, but ending it does not require an action. Upon first activating this ability, the champion chooses acid, cold, electricity, or fire; this selection can only be changed each time the champion gains a champion level. All enemies within 10 feet of the champion take 1d6 points of the specified damage type at the end of each of the champion's turns. Every four levels thereafter, the radius of this effect increases by 5 feet and the damage increases by 1d6. This ability does not function while the champion is unconscious or dead, and if they enter one of those states while Emanation is active, the effects of Emanation immediately cease.

    Mettle (Ex):
    If a Champion of 8th level or higher is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Fortitude or Will save for a reduced or partial effect, he ignores the effect if he makes a successful saving throw.

    Wings of Glory (Su)
    At 11th level, a champion gains the ability to fly as if permanently under the effects of fly, but as a supernatural ability. This ability can have a physical manifestation if the champion wishes it to.

    Iron Soul (Su):
    At 14th level, a champion gains spell resistance equal to 10 + champion level. It does not require an action to raise or lower this spell resistance; thus, a champion may lower their spell resistance to allow an allied spell to affect them and may then immediately raise it again. If a champion falls unconscious, they may designate one or more allies who may ignore the champion's spell resistance until the next time the champion regains consciousness; the designated allies are psychically alerted that they have been selected in this manner.

    Appeal (Sp)
    A champion of 17th level or higher may use greater planar ally as a spell-like ability once per day. They must still arrange payment for the task requested of the summoned outsiders, but do not need to pay the 2500 gp material component. They may only have one casting's worth of outsiders summoned by this effect at any time; activating this ability before any currently summoned outsiders have completed their tasks frees them from your service, but does not refund your payment to them.

    Ascension:
    At 20th level, a champion becomes a magical creature. Whenever it would be beneficial for them, they are forevermore treated as an outsider (native) with an alignment subtype corresponding to one of their alignment components (champions with multiple alignment components choose which subtype to receive, and true neutral champions do not receive an alignment component), rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the champion's creature type was). In addition, they gain DR 10 against weapons not opposed to their chosen subtype (e.g. a good-aligned champion who chooses the good subtype gains DR 10/evil). Champions with one or more neutral alignment components may choose DR 10/adamantine instead (and true neutral Champions must choose DR 10/adamantine). They no longer need to breath, eat, drink, or sleep, and can speak with any living creature. They do not suffer aging penalties and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that have already been applied are reverted (the champion chooses whether their physical appearance undergoes reversed aging as well). When their time is up, they are called to dwell on the outer plane best matching their cause and alignment and lose their (native) subtype.

    New Feat
    Extra Resolve
    Prerequisites: Resolve class feature
    Benefit: The size of your resolve pool increases by 2.
    Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

    Spoiler: Changelog
    Show
    5/1/2015: Uploaded.
    5/2/2015: "Champion Power" renamed to "Vindication". Weather the Storm added. Ascension DR flipped.
    5/3/2015: Spiteful Retribution added. Aura of Might split into initial and improved versions. Emanation changed to levels 4/8/12/16/20. Paragon's Aura category created to differentiate between the main aura set, Aura of Might, and Aura of Grace.
    5/4/2015: Intercession added. "Whenever it's beneficial" clause added to Ascension. Divine Courage added. Some of Keledrath's various suggestions implemented.
    5/6/2015: Added a must-have-recently-damaged-another-ally clause to Aura of Might.
    5/7/2015: Added a number of clauses requiring that a champion be alive and conscious for some abilities to function.


    Archetypes

    The Invisible Hand
    Credit to silphael for the idea
    Sometimes a goal cannot be easily met directly. Sometimes a more underhanded method is required. This is where the Invisible Hand comes in.
    Skills: Add Disable Device, Escape Artist, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth to the Invisible Hand's class skill list.
    Vindication: New vindications are only learned at levels 1, 7, 13, and 19. This alters the Vindication ability.
    Tools of the Trade: At levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19, an Invisible Hand learns a Rogue Talent, Slayer Talent, or Ninja Trick of their choosing. At levels 13, 16, and 19, they may instead select Advanced Rogue Talents, Advanced Slayer Talents, and/or Master Ninja Tricks.
    Emanation: An Invisible Hand's Emanation deals no damage, and cannot be activated. However, they are still treated as having this class feature, and for the purposes of all other effects, still have an effective Emanation radius equal to that of an unarchetyped Champion of their level. This alters the Emanation ability.
    Sneak Attack: At level 4, an Invisible Hand gains Sneak Attack +1d6, as the Rogue ability. This sneak attack damage increases by one die every four levels.

    Prestige Classes

    The Mage-Knight

    Although most champions spurn arcane magic, seeing it as inherently selfish, others embrace it and turn its powers towards their chosen cause. These are the Mage-Knights.
    Spoiler: The Mage-Knight
    Show
    Prerequisites:
    Feats: Combat Casting
    Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells (racial spell-like abilities do not meet this qualification).
    Special: Emanation class feature.

    HD: d10.
    Skill ranks per level: 2+Int modifier.
    Level BAB Fortitude Reflex Will Special Spellcasting
    1 +0 +1 +0 +1 Walker of Two Paths, Champion Abilities, Familiar +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    2 +1 +1 +1 +1 Paragon's Aura (Disruption), Armor Training (Light) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    3 +2 +2 +1 +2 Vindication +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    4 +3 +2 +1 +2 Emanation (+1d6, +5 ft) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    5 +3 +3 +2 +3 Bound by Faith +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    6 +4 +3 +2 +3 Armor Training (Medium) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    7 +5 +4 +2 +4 Vindication +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    8 +6 +4 +3 +4 Paragon's Aura (Thaumaturgy) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    9 +6 +5 +3 +5 Emanation (+2d6, +10 ft) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    10 +7 +5 +3 +5 Arcane Resplendence, Armor Training (Heavy) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
    Class Features:
    Walker of Two Paths: A Mage-Knight who casts spells using an ability score other than Charisma uses that ability score in place of Charisma for all Champion and Mage-Knight class features (such as the size of the Mage-Knight's Resolve pool, or the penalty applied by the Paragon's Aura (Disruption) class feature).
    Champion Abilities: Mage-Knight levels stack with Champion levels when determining the number of points of Resolve the Mage-Knight possesses, as well as the save DCs of their Champion abilities that allow saving throws.
    Familiar: Mage-Knight levels stack with levels of other classes when determining the abilities of a familiar. If they do not have a familiar from another class, they gain the ability to summon one, and use their arcane caster level as their effective wizard level to determine its abilities.
    Paragon's Aura (Disruption): Enemies with Spell Resistance who are within 10 feet of a Mage-Knight of second level or higher receive a penalty to their SR equal to the Mage-Knight's Charisma modifier.
    Armor Training: At 2nd level, a Mage-Knight ignores all arcane spell failure chances from light armor. This benefit extends to medium armor at level 6 and to heavy armor at level 10.
    Vindication: At levels 3 and 7, a Mage-Knight learns a new Vindication.
    Emanation: At levels 4 and 9, a Mage-Knight's Emanation increases in radius by 5 feet and increases in damage by 1d6.
    Bound by Faith: The familiar of a Mage-Knight of 5th level or higher shares the benefits of the Mage-Knight's Paragon's Aura class features (including those gained from Champion levels), and allies within 10 feet of the Mage-Knight's familiar gain the ally benefits of these auras.
    Paragon's Aura (Thaumaturgy): At level 8, a Mage-Knight gains the ability to share their arcane talents with nearby allies. By spending one point of Resolve, the Mage-Knight may grant the benefits of an ongoing spell currently affecting the Mage-Knight to all allies within 10 feet for either one minute of the spell's remaining duration, whichever is shorter. Allies who enter the radius of this effect gain the benefit of the spell immediately, while those who leave the area retain the bonus for 1 round.
    Arcane Resplendence: A 10th-level Mage-Knight may spend Resolve to regain any expended spell or spell slot, or to spontaneously apply one or more metamagic feats to a spell without increasing the level of the spell slot used to cast it. Recovering an expended spell or spell slot costs one point of Resolve and requires a move action, while spontaneously applying metamagic costs one point of Resolve for every three levels' worth of metamagic effects applied to the spell, rounded up (e.g. applying Quicken Spell through this ability costs 2 points of Resolve).
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-11 at 04:38 PM.
    Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
    My Homebrew (PF, 3.5)
    Awesome Bone Knight avatar by Chd.
    Spoiler: Current Characters
    Show
    Cassidy Halloran, Human Scout
    William Gamache, Human Relic Channeler Medium
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Lay on hands? More like Lay your Eyes on this sick elbow drop!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Adrift; Dark Tapestry
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    I definitely like this class. Do you mind if I make one or more Archetypes for this class?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalidormis View Post
    I definitely like this class. Do you mind if I make one or more Archetypes for this class?
    Go for it! What direction are you thinking about taking it in? I could help if you wanted.
    Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
    My Homebrew (PF, 3.5)
    Awesome Bone Knight avatar by Chd.
    Spoiler: Current Characters
    Show
    Cassidy Halloran, Human Scout
    William Gamache, Human Relic Channeler Medium
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Lay on hands? More like Lay your Eyes on this sick elbow drop!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Adrift; Dark Tapestry
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Go for it! What direction are you thinking about taking it in? I could help if you wanted.
    I wanted to create one that wields one-handed firearms and one-handed melee weapons. Sword and pistol type.

    Edit: It'll gains grit points, like a gunslinger.

    it gains access to a couple deeds from both the gunslinger and swashbuckler lists.

    Coin Toss:
    At the beginning of their turn, the champion may choose a side and flip a coin. If they win the coin toss, the champion (and all allies in range) gains a luck bonus to their attack rolls and AC until the start of the champion's next turn. Furthermore, the champion gains a grit point.

    If they lose the coin toss, the champion alone gains a luck penalty to their attack rolls and AC until the start of the champion's next turn.
    Last edited by Ancalidormis; 2015-05-02 at 04:25 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalidormis View Post
    I wanted to create one that wields one-handed firearms and one-handed melee weapons. Sword and pistol type.
    Hm. That actually sounds like something you could do with just feats. The Champion isn't designed with any particular combat style in mind beyond keeping enemies inside your Emanation radius. Quick sample build:
    Fighter 4/Champion 16
    1st: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Rapid Reload
    2nd: Point Blank Shot
    3rd: Weapon Focus (pistol)
    4th: Weapon Specialization (pistol)
    5th: Point Blank Master (pistol)
    7th: Precise Shot
    9th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    11th: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

    All the other ways I can think of make use of the awfully prerequisite-heavy Sword and Pistol feat and finish a lot slower. Maybe to accommodate for feat-heavy combat styles I could allow a combat feat to be selected in place of a Vindication? Then you could do something like:

    Champion 20
    1st: Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Reload, Weapon Finesse (Vindication)
    3rd: Point Blank Shot
    4th: Precise Shot (Vindication)
    5th: Rapid Shot
    7th: Snap Shot, plus an actual Vindication
    9th: Sword and Pistol
    10th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Vindication)
    11th: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
    13th: any Vindication, any feat
    15th: any feat
    16th: any Vindication
    17th: any feat
    19th: any Vindication

    Still room for four Vindications, plus three feats. Finishes the build at the same rate but gets full Champion progression. What do you think?

    ETA: Now that you've edited some stuff in, I notice that you want a grit/panache-like system. Maybe the set of deeds replaces some or all of the normally available Vindications, or places some other limit on them (e.g. they can't have more normal Vindications than they have deeds)?

    Either way I'm editing in the feats-for-deeds thing.
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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Quite similar to something I'm working on.
    My biggest point to note here is that you need to shuffle the auras.

    The first is by far the strongest.
    As in, maybe even stronger than the rest combined.
    Definitely should be weakened, or come late. The last aura us ironically the weakest.
    Also you should give the first aura the part that makes it inactive when unconscious/dead.
    Last edited by boomwolf; 2015-05-02 at 07:25 AM.

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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Aura of Might is indeed very (too IMO) strong, especially at low levels : -5 to hit ensures no opponent will hit your allies on anything else than a natural 20, at least before level 4-5. At that time it's still an HUGE penalty, making things considered to be heavy hitters slight pokers...

    Easiest way should be to make it scales, like -1/4th Champion level, "minimum" -1. At first level, it's still a sizable penalty, and it's not crushingly painfull to fight against.

    Some vindications could use some clarifications, especially about the actions needed for activation (the first one comes in mind, there is no explanation for the single target effect).

    All in all I find it quite interresting ^^

    Emanation seems quite weak, but it could be kept that way with something like "whenever you activate this ability, choose an energy type. This ability deals 1d6 damage of the chosen energy type at the end of each round." That way it will keep meaning at highest levels, when everything has some kind of resistance to energies.

    Quick template out of my mind : "Deceiving Champion : sometimes reaching a goal asks for hidden ways, lies, and deceipt. Being able to stay true to their goals isn't easy for those pledge to their cause no matter what happens, forfeiting concepts like honor, pride, or fame..." with abilities like sneak attacks, hidden alignement, and so on.
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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by boomwolf View Post
    Quite similar to something I'm working on.
    My biggest point to note here is that you need to shuffle the auras.

    The first is by far the strongest.
    As in, maybe even stronger than the rest combined.
    Definitely should be weakened, or come late. The last aura us ironically the weakest.
    Also you should give the first aura the part that makes it inactive when unconscious/dead.
    Aura of Might is designed with a different role in mind than the rest of the auras; note that it is (Ex) while the others are (Su). And it's not too much stronger than Iron Guard's Glare, which Crusaders can have from level 1 (the penalty is one greater than IGG and the range is 5 feet wider). It's supposed to be one of the primary "tank" attributes of the class, similar to IGG and the Armiger's Mark class feature of Dreamscarred Press's Warder class.
    The other class features certainly make the Champion a threat, but Aura of Might is the big one, the one that says "I'm here, and you'd best be attacking me instead of my allies". And it has counterplay, too: attack the champion's allies while you are outside the radius (either with ranged weapons or by just hitting people dumb enough to stand at the edge of the effect). If everyone clumps up inside the area, just throw down some area damage. It doesn't give any sort of saving throw bonus, so if everyone is packed into that 15-foot-radius circle (assuming a reach weapon), a few fireballs will go a long way.
    The Aura of Might, the aggro pull from Fighting Challenge (and implicit aggro pull from Smite), disruption from Scatter the Weak/Wrathful Gaze/Watchful Protector/Steadfast Guardian, and team-buffs from the aura bonuses and Cut Them Down, when put together, are what make this class a tank. The aura immunities, Divine Grace, Mettle, SR, and saves/HD are what allow them to survive their job.
    (That's sort of a rambly explanation, but it conveys my idea of the class features pretty well so I'll leave it here)

    The other auras are secondary effects, similar to the Paladin auras (most of them are in fact copied and pasted). Aura of Righteousness is actually pretty good; immunity to compulsion means you're no longer subject to Dominate Person and all of its nasty counterparts. Maybe I should expand it to mind-affecting effects in general if it seems too weak? But then, most of the non-compulsion mind-affecting stuff is covered by the Auras of Courage, Resolve, and Clarity anyways, so I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by silphael View Post
    Aura of Might is indeed very (too IMO) strong, especially at low levels : -5 to hit ensures no opponent will hit your allies on anything else than a natural 20, at least before level 4-5. At that time it's still an HUGE penalty, making things considered to be heavy hitters slight pokers...

    Easiest way should be to make it scales, like -1/4th Champion level, "minimum" -1. At first level, it's still a sizable penalty, and it's not crushingly painfull to fight against.
    See above regarding Iron Guard's Glare. If -4 is balanced by both WotC and DSP standards, -5 probably isn't broken. The area's a bit larger, but that's so it actually has some relevance outside of dungeon corridors.

    Quote Originally Posted by silphael View Post
    Some vindications could use some clarifications, especially about the actions needed for activation (the first one comes in mind, there is no explanation for the single target effect).
    Hm. I'll edit in the activation clause for a single target (I thought it was sufficiently implied that it was also a swift action, but I might as well put it in for clarity's sake).

    Quote Originally Posted by silphael View Post
    All in all I find it quite interresting ^^
    Thanks! I'm glad you like it :3

    Quote Originally Posted by silphael View Post
    Emanation seems quite weak, but it could be kept that way with something like "whenever you activate this ability, choose an energy type. This ability deals 1d6 damage of the chosen energy type at the end of each round." That way it will keep meaning at highest levels, when everything has some kind of resistance to energies.
    Yeah, I wasn't sure about its effectiveness at high levels. I do have the ability to change energy types as a vindication, though, and I'm not sure if I want to make it a default ability. Requiring only one energy type without the vindication allows for DM counterplay (send the occasional enemy who's immune to the damage type), and the Champion can expend character resources (one of their seven Vindications) to remove that problem. Maybe I could change the Emanation progression to levels 5/8/11/14/17/20? That adds some damage, but doesn't start it any earlier. In this case I'd probably start the area scaling at 5 feet so it caps out at 30.

    Quote Originally Posted by silphael View Post
    Quick template out of my mind : "Deceiving Champion : sometimes reaching a goal asks for hidden ways, lies, and deceipt. Being able to stay true to their goals isn't easy for those pledge to their cause no matter what happens, forfeiting concepts like honor, pride, or fame..." with abilities like sneak attacks, hidden alignement, and so on.
    I'm not actually sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about an archetype? Hm. Hidden alignment would be easy enough to add for free, or maybe I could have it replace the Endurance/Diehard. Expand the skill list, maybe give them 6+Int, replace the Emanation with a sneak attack progression, maybe let them trade in Vindications for Rogue talents... yes, that sounds pretty cool. I'd definitely be down to help toss that together with you.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-02 at 08:03 AM.
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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Well, I'm not into arguing, so I'll just put a few points for your consideration.

    1-the fireball solution you brought up in at 5th level the earliest, notorious as redicilusly good to begin with and the ability 8s level 1

    2-as level one it's easy to splash it to pretty much any build. Having the best of the class has to offer at level 1 means everything beyond the first few levels might as well not exist.

    3-wotc are not a good place to compare balance. Nearly half their material is completely off scales.

    4-good tanks make it harder to get their party, but this at nearly levels might as well say they cannot be attacked at all. Pair it with point 2 and just take champion 1 into a durable class, and you broke early levels. The only place dnd 3.5 and path are balanced to begin with.


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    Quote Originally Posted by boomwolf View Post
    Well, I'm not into arguing, so I'll just put a few points for your consideration.

    1-the fireball solution you brought up in at 5th level the earliest, notorious as redicilusly good to begin with and the ability 8s level 1

    2-as level one it's easy to splash it to pretty much any build. Having the best of the class has to offer at level 1 means everything beyond the first few levels might as well not exist.

    3-wotc are not a good place to compare balance. Nearly half their material is completely off scales.

    4-good tanks make it harder to get their party, but this at nearly levels might as well say they cannot be attacked at all. Pair it with point 2 and just take champion 1 into a durable class, and you broke early levels. The only place dnd 3.5 and path are balanced to begin with.
    1- alchemist's fire, or any other area-of-effect damage source, can fill in just as well.

    2- Iron Guard's Glare is just as easy to splash in with a level of Crusader, and a one-level Crusader dip gives a lot more than a one-level Champion dip.

    3- The Crusader is seen by most people as a pretty darn well-balanced class (infinite shuriken-stabs being the only exception to this), so I think it's safe to say that IGG is balanced too.

    4- So? It's the same as Iron Guard's Glare, just larger and 25% stronger. Just attack the Champion. They're not immune to damage, and any low-level character is pretty squishy. Is IGG also broken?

    Aura of Might isn't all that stronger than Iron Guard's Glare, which is an ability that WotC saw fit to put in their game and that Dreamscarred Press say fit to effectively replicate for pathfinder. I see no issue with the ability.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-02 at 08:41 AM.
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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    About comparison between IGG and aura of might (AoM for clarity's sake) :

    IGG is a stance, meaning that by using it, you forfeit the use of some other possible stance, while AoM is always on, with a greater penalty and greater area. Basically, is does everything IGG does, but better and less annoying to use. Yes, the effects seems quite similar, yet they aren't.

    At the same time AoM is more or less supposed to be the signature ability of the champion : all champions get it, at level 1, and that's probably why you want to see a champion... that may not be a good idea to make your first selling argument "i make you harder to kill". Maybe reduce it down a bit and add another ability.

    And yes, I was thinking template, language barrier, sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silphael View Post
    About comparison between IGG and aura of might (AoM for clarity's sake) :

    IGG is a stance, meaning that by using it, you forfeit the use of some other possible stance, while AoM is always on, with a greater penalty and greater area. Basically, is does everything IGG does, but better and less annoying to use. Yes, the effects seems quite similar, yet they aren't.

    At the same time AoM is more or less supposed to be the signature ability of the champion : all champions get it, at level 1, and that's probably why you want to see a champion... that may not be a good idea to make your first selling argument "i make you harder to kill". Maybe reduce it down a bit and add another ability.

    And yes, I was thinking template, language barrier, sorry.
    Hm. You've definitely got a point about the opportunity cost of IGG. Maybe I could put a restriction on AoM that it only applies to enemies who have already hit an ally inside the area? Sort of a "you hurt my friend but I won't let you do it again" sort of thing. Then I could toss on a duration for the effect so it resets in long-ish combats.
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    Under Ascension it is noted that the Champion gains DR10/(chosen subtype).
    I'd consider changing this to the morally/ethically antithetical type. That is how things are usually done with outsiders' damage reductions (Fiends are usually susceptible to good-aligned weapons, Celestials susceptible to evil-aligned ones) and this is also how the Paladin's very similar ability works
    Also consider this would effectively make their damage reduction not able to be bypassed by normal means, as, let's say a given champion is good aligned, and ascends to become a good-aligned outsider. As it stands, their damage reduction would have to be bypassed by a holy weapon or the like. The typical alignment of one seeking to harm the champion would likely, in this case, be evil, and they would thus be unable to effectively wield a holy weapon without massive penalties. Some GMs may even rule, if they interpret the fact that "detect evil" detects people as evil when they presently have evil intentions, that a person's alignment is effectively evil when seeking to perform evil actions, such as killing a celestial champion of good, so even those whose base alignment is normally neutral or even good might not be able to wield holy weapons against the Champion.

    Aside from this note, I think the class is looking great, though I agree with others that Aura of might is quite strong for an always-active ability received at first level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MercantileOtter View Post
    Under Ascension it is noted that the Champion gains DR10/(chosen subtype).
    I'd consider changing this to the morally/ethically antithetical type. That is how things are usually done with outsiders' damage reductions (Fiends are usually susceptible to good-aligned weapons, Celestials susceptible to evil-aligned ones) and this is also how the Paladin's very similar ability works
    Also consider this would effectively make their damage reduction not able to be bypassed by normal means, as, let's say a given champion is good aligned, and ascends to become a good-aligned outsider. As it stands, their damage reduction would have to be bypassed by a holy weapon or the like. The typical alignment of one seeking to harm the champion would likely, in this case, be evil, and they would thus be unable to effectively wield a holy weapon without massive penalties. Some GMs may even rule, if they interpret the fact that "detect evil" detects people as evil when they presently have evil intentions, that a person's alignment is effectively evil when seeking to perform evil actions, such as killing a celestial champion of good, so even those whose base alignment is normally neutral or even good might not be able to wield holy weapons against the Champion.
    Hm. Although I've never really liked the opposed-alignment DR (why should paladins get protection against everything except evil-aligned weapons?), I suppose it makes more sense. I'll switch that, and I also think I'll allow any Champion with one or more neutral components to choose DR/adamantine if they wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by MercantileOtter View Post
    Aside from this note, I think the class is looking great, though I agree with others that Aura of might is quite strong for an always-active ability received at first level.
    I'm glad you like most of it! Although the consensus is that Aura of Might is their strongest class feature, I don't know if I want to change it very much. What do you think of the above proposition that it only applies to enemies who have hit allies within the area? I could maybe even have the debuff reset when an effected enemy leaves and re-enters the area, to add skirmishers to the list of effective counter-strategies.
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    Sorry for the double-post but this is a major update.

    After some more thought on the matter and a re-reading of feedback I've gotten on Aura of Might, I'm splitting it into two parts. The first part is gained at level 1 as normal, and applies a -3 penalty to hit allies within the champion's reach. At 5th level the penalty improves to -5 and the radius increases by 5 feet. Thus, at levels 1-4 the new Aura of Might is weaker than its initial iteration, but at level 5 and above the two are equal.

    To compensate, I'm buffing the damage and area from Emanation. The ability is now gained at level 4 and scales up every four levels.

    I'm also currently working on an archetype and a prestige class, both will be up soon. Both are now up. The Invisible Hand is based on silphael's suggestion for a stealthy Champion, and the Mage-Knight blends the champion's normal abilities with arcane spellcasting. The latter looks like a powerful PrC on its face, but four levels of casting must be sacrificed to meet the prerequisites, and the class is designed with this in mind.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-03 at 05:25 PM.
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    Definitely looks nice, and I echo the comments about Aura of Might. I see that you have done something to fix it, but I still feel it is a bit much.

    First off, Crusader is irrelevant, as this is PF, not 3.5. Comparing it to Warder, yes, Warder gets Armiger's Mark. However, Aura of Might is WAY better than AM, because AM has the following
    1. You have to hit the enemy first
    2. It is limited on uses per day
    3. You have to hit the enemy first

    Yes, that was on there twice. At the levels where it is really problematic, you run into the issue of things like goblins that suddenly are unable to hit other party members (because of the Aura) and can't hit you (Because you're a tank).

    Haven't read the vindications yet, but I will note this on the capstone: Include a "When it is beneficial" clause. Otherwise, you have the monk problem (ie, Enlarge Person, the best buff spell for a melee to get, no longer works on you. Because you hit level 20)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Definitely looks nice, and I echo the comments about Aura of Might. I see that you have done something to fix it, but I still feel it is a bit much.

    First off, Crusader is irrelevant, as this is PF, not 3.5. Comparing it to Warder, yes, Warder gets Armiger's Mark. However, Aura of Might is WAY better than AM, because AM has the following
    1. You have to hit the enemy first
    2. It is limited on uses per day
    3. You have to hit the enemy first

    Yes, that was on there twice. At the levels where it is really problematic, you run into the issue of things like goblins that suddenly are unable to hit other party members (because of the Aura) and can't hit you (Because you're a tank).
    My comparison to Armiger's Mark and IGG was in response to comments regarding the magnitude of the penalty; yours are the first remarks on the conditions under which it applies. What do you think of my above suggestion (currently unanswered) that the penalty only apply to enemies who have already hit an ally while both fall within the aura range?

    Also, I'm considering changing the condition from both ally and enemy being within the radius to ally being within the radius and enemy making a melee attack, so Huge+ creatures (or Large+ with reach weapons) aren't immune.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Haven't read the vindications yet, but I will note this on the capstone: Include a "When it is beneficial" clause. Otherwise, you have the monk problem (ie, Enlarge Person, the best buff spell for a melee to get, no longer works on you. Because you hit level 20)
    Thanks for pointing that out, I've edited Ascension accordingly (the sentence might have some dodgy grammar, though). Looking forwards to your feedback on the Vindications.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-04 at 09:12 AM.
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    Well, the ease of application is a major factor to be considered. As it stands, even with a lower penalty, Aura of Might absolutely outclasses Armiger's Mark.

    As far as how to handle it, I think it can work as a general aura, just with reduced magnitude on account of being passive. Passive abilities need to have lower magnitudes because they are always there. Maybe something like 1/3 or 1/4 Class level. This also gets around the problem of this being a ridiculous 1 level dip for anyone want to tank (Full BAB, 4+Int Skill points, d12 HD, good Fort and Will saves, free Diehard and Endurance, Aura of Might, and a Vindication).

    Oh, and I recommend using this in place of your Aura of Courage. It is completely lifted from T.G. Oskar's 3.5 Paladin Retool, but it is by far one of my favorite homebrew abilities I've ever seen in use. Oh, and replace "paladin" with "Champion", obviously

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    Alright, the Vindications

    First off, you seem to have several instances of the letter "I" replaced with "B". I'm not seeing much of a pattern, but I did notice it with the word "if"

    Fighting Challenge: Good.

    Expanded Auras: Good.

    Smite: This is an odd one. The biggest thing I see here is that it is really limited. Since it is only 1/encounter (presumably per enemy), you need to then spend your swift to change your smite mark after triggering it

    Scatter the Weak: This is way too strong. It is spammable, multi target, and is an amazing SoL: Fail, and you run away, losing any ability to fight. Doesn't work for dippers, but still incredibly strong.

    Cut Them Down: I think this needs typing. As an untyped, it is insanely good (remember, you can get these with a dip)

    Aura of Grace: Again, this is insane for a dip. Also, needs the Cut Them Down clause about not being your own ally (otherwise, 2 levels and an action nets you 2x Cha to saves)

    Weather the Storm: Good

    Healing Touch/Touch of Death: Maybe allow future Vindications to pickup Mercies/Cruelties? And possibly an exclusion clause preventing both from being taken (I don't mind both being available, but some people might balk)

    Spiteful Retribution: Good Aggro pull

    Watchful Protector: I would normally say this is perfect, except that it is actually a bit too strong. On its own, it's fine. But combined with the fact that the enemy is taking the Aura of Might penalty, this just became ridiculous. And has cemented this class as a 1 level dip for Warders.

    Intercession: Aura of Might is too small for this to really be useful. Also needs a clause that the ally's movement doesn't provoke.

    Wrathful Gaze: This needs a level gate. Again, AoE save or suck, and if you manage to get a HD advantage, then it's Save or Lose, and Suck if you pass.

    Steadfast Guardian: Again, it's too much when you combine it with Aura of Might and all the other defensive abilities the class has. Also, this just became a god tier cohort class.

    Versatile Emanation: You need a whitelist here. I'm assuming you were thinking of more obvious things (sonic, profane, sacred, negative, positive, etc), but there is at least one serious abuse: Bleed Damage. Also, Ability score damage is a type of damage.

    Bonus Feat: I don't like the requirement to have a point of Resolve. But it's good to have the option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Well, the ease of application is a major factor to be considered. As it stands, even with a lower penalty, Aura of Might absolutely outclasses Armiger's Mark.

    As far as how to handle it, I think it can work as a general aura, just with reduced magnitude on account of being passive. Passive abilities need to have lower magnitudes because they are always there. Maybe something like 1/3 or 1/4 Class level. This also gets around the problem of this being a ridiculous 1 level dip for anyone want to tank (Full BAB, 4+Int Skill points, d12 HD, good Fort and Will saves, free Diehard and Endurance, Aura of Might, and a Vindication).
    Hm. I really don't want it to start at a -1 penalty and have it scale up to full strength by level 15 or 20. By that stage, armor class doesn't matter too much anymore, even if it is an effective increase of 4 or 5. AC is mostly relevant at low levels, which is why I put the full-strength ability at such a low level. Maybe a low-start, fast-scaling ability like 1/2 level (rounded up so they get something at level 1)? A -10 penalty is enough to be at least sometimes relevant at the endgame, and this lowers the ability's numerical effects early on to a more manageable level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Oh, and I recommend using this in place of your Aura of Courage. It is completely lifted from T.G. Oskar's 3.5 Paladin Retool, but it is by far one of my favorite homebrew abilities I've ever seen in use. Oh, and replace "paladin" with "Champion", obviously.

    Divine Courage: At 3rd level, whenever a paladin is subject to a fear effect, she draws from her reserves of courage and faces it. A shaken paladin negates the penalties and actually gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks against the source of fear; a frightened paladin furthermore ignores the compulsion to run away and ignores difficult terrain and other natural impediments when drawing near the enemy; a panicked paladin gains a +2 bonus to Armor Class and never cowers (thus, it may act even if there is no chance to escape, but may only target or act against the source of her fear). Penalties to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks still apply on the paladin for any creature of object that is not the source of fear (except for cowering). If the paladin manages to defeat or destroy the source of fear, she is healed from the condition.
    Oooh, I like that. Certainly more interesting than flat immunity. I think I'll add it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Alright, the Vindications

    First off, you seem to have several instances of the letter "I" replaced with "B". I'm not seeing much of a pattern, but I did notice it with the word "if"
    Huh. That must've happened when I did a mass find/replace I->B to switch all the italics to bold. Guess I'll fix that, thanks for the catch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Fighting Challenge: Good.

    Expanded Auras: Good.

    Smite: This is an odd one. The biggest thing I see here is that it is really limited. Since it is only 1/encounter (presumably per enemy), you need to then spend your swift to change your smite mark after triggering it
    I definitely want to keep the action gating on Smite activation, though. Otherwise it could be abused by switching the mark to an enemy just before they hit an ally. Smite is mostly supposed to be a "don't touch my friends" card that you drop on the BBEG without making your allies completely invulnerable; the marked enemy can still throw debuffs and/or minions at them. I think I'll add that marked creatures can't be magically compelled to attack someone if it would allow the Smite damage to trigger; this prevents abuse via command, and introduces a niche use for finding out if someone is willingly fighting you or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Scatter the Weak: This is way too strong. It is spammable, multi target, and is an amazing SoL: Fail, and you run away, losing any ability to fight. Doesn't work for dippers, but still incredibly strong.
    Hm. Maybe restrict the area to the Aura of Might instead of the Emanation? Either that or stipulate that once they get out the radius they can act normally. It's meant to be a forced disengage to let your party organize themselves properly (e.g. to defend against an ambush). I could also remove the cowering and just leave the effect at "get as far away as you can, or at least outside the Emanation".

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Cut Them Down: I think this needs typing. As an untyped, it is insanely good (remember, you can get these with a dip)
    I'll switch it to a morale bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Aura of Grace: Again, this is insane for a dip. Also, needs the Cut Them Down clause about not being your own ally (otherwise, 2 levels and an action nets you 2x Cha to saves)
    I'll add a no-double-stacking clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Weather the Storm: Good

    Healing Touch/Touch of Death: Maybe allow future Vindications to pickup Mercies/Cruelties? And possibly an exclusion clause preventing both from being taken (I don't mind both being available, but some people might balk)
    The issue there is that I'm not sure how many mercies/cruelties to give out. One mercy for a Vindication is obviously a terrible deal, but 2-for-1 starts to step on the Paladin's toes by letting another class copy one of their core features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Spiteful Retribution: Good Aggro pull

    Watchful Protector: I would normally say this is perfect, except that it is actually a bit too strong. On its own, it's fine. But combined with the fact that the enemy is taking the Aura of Might penalty, this just became ridiculous. And has cemented this class as a 1 level dip for Warders.
    Hm, yeah. And it is pretty spammable now that I look at it. Might just change it to usable via Resolve only, or at least disallow spending an AoO on it two rounds in a row.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Intercession: Aura of Might is too small for this to really be useful. Also needs a clause that the ally's movement doesn't provoke.
    I'll add the non-provoking clause. Maybe change it such that it can be used on allies within one single move from the champion? Reinforces the image of them running forwards and pushing their ally out of the way of the oncoming attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Wrathful Gaze: This needs a level gate. Again, AoE save or suck, and if you manage to get a HD advantage, then it's Save or Lose, and Suck if you pass.
    Maybe set the HD gate as 2 lower than the champion's? Also, I don't really see how being Frightened for (probably) only 1 round while you leave the area is a save-or-lose in anything other than a closed room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Steadfast Guardian: Again, it's too much when you combine it with Aura of Might and all the other defensive abilities the class has. Also, this just became a god tier cohort class.
    You definitely have a point. Maybe I could remove the AC sharing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Versatile Emanation: You need a whitelist here. I'm assuming you were thinking of more obvious things (sonic, profane, sacred, negative, positive, etc), but there is at least one serious abuse: Bleed Damage. Also, Ability score damage is a type of damage.
    It already does specify "from the four available", referring to the four energy types an emanation is already able to deal, but I'll definitely enumerate the four in the description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Bonus Feat: I don't like the requirement to have a point of Resolve. But it's good to have the option.
    It's there to encourage taking an actual Vindication over a bonus feat; the option to trade Vindications away is mostly for champions with feat-intensive fighting styles (like the sword-and-pistol concept higher up in the thread).

    Regarding the abilities that need level gates (Wrathful Gaze, Watchful Protector, Scatter the Weak, Aura of Grace), maybe I could classify them as Greater Vindications and only make those available from level 10? There's still room to grab all four, but prevents another class from jumping in and grabbing them.

    Thanks for all your feedback! I appreciate your help with this project
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-04 at 06:13 PM.
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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    It already does specify "from the four available", referring to the four energy types an emanation is already able to deal, but I'll definitely enumerate the four in the description.
    I see where the confusion is. You meant it as "choose a different one of the four available options". I read that as "choose a damage type different from the four normally available" I was actually kind of liking the idea of an emanation of Positive/Negative Energy (healing), or of a physical damage type (the air around you tearing them to shreds)
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    Default Re: The Champion (Base Class)

    I've added a clause to the current iteration of Aura of Might that it only applies to enemies who have struck another ally within the last two rounds. That lets enemies get in a few attacks every now without the penalty, without weakening its effectiveness when active (I really don't want to change those numbers, I think they're good where they are).

    Another thing I've been considering is setting a limit on how many allies can be protected by this ability. Maybe 1 + Charisma modifier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I see where the confusion is. You meant it as "choose a different one of the four available options". I read that as "choose a damage type different from the four normally available" I was actually kind of liking the idea of an emanation of Positive/Negative Energy (healing), or of a physical damage type (the air around you tearing them to shreds)
    Hm. Positive energy isn't actually that good, only useful against undead because Emanation damage only applies to enemies. Negative energy is kinda the opposite; so universally applicable that along with the option for positive energy to deal with the few undead you come across, it would basically change your aura to untyped damage. I'll add the physical damage types, though. My initial concern was that it would let a Champion ignore energy resistance/immunity, but then I realized that that's the entire point of this Vindication.
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