Converting Between Dungeons and Dragons and Exalted?

[Lord Loss]

Considering Dungeons and Dragons' difficulties in balancing epic level games, (I play 3.5 primarily, but I would argue that this applies to many editions), and assuming that it suited the players, how would transitioning the game to Exalted (with the lore changed, of course) work in terms of power level and rules consistency. My gut says that this is a terrible idea on many levels, but I have little Familiarity with Exalted and figured that it would be best to ask around before picking up a rulebook and finding out for myself

I have very little experience with WoD and White Wolf games in general, I've read about them here and there, and have a decent idea of the mechanics and some idea of the lore. But I have no idea if the two systems complement the same sort of narrative/gameplay, at all. And if such a conversion would make any sort of sense.

Also, I wasn't sure if I should put this in one of the DnD boards, or the ''other games'' board, so I figured I would just post it here.

[Anonymouswizard]

Considering Dungeons and Dragons' difficulties in balancing epic level games, (I play 3.5 primarily, but I would argue that this applies to many editions), and assuming that it suited the players, how would transitioning the game to Exalted (with the lore changed, of course) work in terms of power level and rules consistency. My gut says that this is a terrible idea on many levels, but I have little Familiarity with Exalted and figured that it would be best to ask around before picking up a rulebook and finding out for myself

Your gut wold be right, if only because the mechanics are so different (right, first we split intelligence into two attributes and charisma into three, and then must recalculate everything to be on a 1-5 scale (normally), work out how BAB splits into melee, martial arts, archery ect, decide how races work, if wizards use sorcery or just a selection of ordinary charms, what exactly happens to rage, what class relates to what exaltation...) that it would be easier to just rebuild the characters entirely.

Starting an entirely new game with a changed setting and similar themes to your D&D game, now that's easy. In relative terms.

I have very little experience with WoD and White Wolf games in general, I've read about them here and there, and have a decent idea of the mechanics and some idea of the lore. But I have no idea if the two systems complement the same sort of narrative/gameplay, at all. And if such a conversion would make any sort of sense.

Narrative: sure, I mean, I can run D&D as a drama laden political adventure, I don't see why not.
Gameplay: Get yourself a pitcher of whiskey if you want to try.

Also, I wasn't sure if I should put this in one of the DnD boards, or the ''other games'' board, so I figured I would just post it here.

Probably here, but I don't really know.

To be honest, it would probably be easier to just run your epic game with exalted from the get go. If you've started and want to transition, stay away from white coats.

[Zale]

What you're suggesting would be very difficult, and almost the same as flatly remaking the characters entirely.

However, if you're interesting in D&D stuff that is inspired by many of the themes of Exalted, then you may want to check out the Mythos set of homebrew.

[TheCountAlucard]

Exalted 2e's also pretty hilariously broken (less hilarious when you try and play it of course ), so I'd suggest joining the rest of us in waiting for the new edition.

[TheCountAlucard]

Considering Dungeons and Dragons' difficulties in balancing epic level games, (I play 3.5 primarily, but I would argue that this applies to many editions), and assuming that it suited the players, how would transitioning the game to Exalted (with the lore changed, of course) work in terms of power level and rules consistency.

It's gonna feel a little incongruous, but not moreso than most transitions.

But I have no idea if the two systems complement the same sort of narrative/gameplay, at all.

Sort of. Both have their roots in fantasy and pulp fantasy and mythology, but they both took very different directions.

And if such a conversion would make any sort of sense.

Converting characters isn't that hard.

first we split intelligence into two attributes...

Intelligence continues to be one Attribute that covers logic, memory, and problem-solving. If anything, it's Wisdom that was sundered in twain.

and then must recalculate everything to be on a 1-5 scale (normally)...

That's not particularly hard, of course.

work out how BAB splits into melee, martial arts, archery ect...

That's easy, too. "Are you proficient with [x weapon]?" If yes, it should be reflected in dots in the Ability in question.

decide how races work...

No joke, that one's even easier. Unless they're genuinely incapable of even being considered "human," you can just assume they're an offshoot of human and slap them with a number of appropriate mutations. Luckily the vast majority, far and away, of D&D races are no less human in behavior than, say, Klingons.

if wizards use sorcery or just a selection of ordinary charms...

More likely it'd be a mix of both. This is a kung-fu movie, and a character with only sorcery is gonna have some weak kung-fu.

what exactly happens to rage...

Battle Fury Focus, or, for Lunars, Relentless Lunar Fury. At higher levels, Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit, or, for Lunars, a bunch of Fury-OK Charms. Or, for Infernals, Infernal Monster Style.

what class relates to what exaltation...

Now that's just a silly thing to say.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Exalted 2e's also pretty hilariously broken (less hilarious when you try and play it of course ), so I'd suggest joining the rest of us in waiting for the new edition.

Us? The only reason I'm not making characters for Exalted 2.5 is because my brain's wandered off to other writing projects.

[Sith_Happens]

Considering Dungeons and Dragons' difficulties in balancing epic level games, (I play 3.5 primarily, but I would argue that this applies to many editions), and assuming that it suited the players, how would transitioning the game to Exalted (with the lore changed, of course) work in terms of power level and rules consistency.

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[Lord Raziere]

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To put it less JJJ-ly and more straight to you Lord Loss:
trying to balance epic Dnd games by converting them to Exalted as it is now, is like trying to put out a fire using particularly flammable oil. Its picking perhaps the one option out of many, that would make the problem worse even faster when all the others would at least make progress in solving it in one form or another.

My suggestion is to not do it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

To put it less JJJ-ly and more straight to you Lord Loss:
trying to balance epic Dnd games by converting them to Exalted as it is now, is like trying to put out a fire using particularly flammable oil. Its picking perhaps the one option out of many, that would make the problem worse even faster when all the others would at least make progress in solving it in one form or another.

Eh, no, Exalted is still better-balanced than epic levels of D&D...

It's more like getting an old junker that gets 10 MPG and has no radio or A/C to replace your car that's already been turned to scrap metal.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, no, Exalted is still better-balanced than epic levels of D&D...

It's more like getting an old junker that gets 10 MPG and has no radio or A/C to replace your car that's already been turned to scrap metal.

Scroll of the Monk, Dreams of the First Age, and the Raksha beg to differ. They're both scrap metal. unless you can tell me exactly how epic DnD is so much worse than the combination of paranoia combat/eternal stun combat, shinmaic conversion shenanigans, Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick and other such things?

[Xefas]

Scroll of the Monk, Dreams of the First Age, and the Raksha beg to differ. They're both scrap metal. unless you can tell me exactly how epic DnD is so much worse than the combination of paranoia combat/eternal stun combat, shinmaic conversion shenanigans, Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick and other such things?

D&D Epic Spellcasters are supplementing their pre-Epic absolute immortality, invulnerability, exponentially growing legions of epic level servants, and quasi-infinite damage, with Epic Spells, the effects of which are "Eh, whatever you feel like." Non-spellcasters are getting +1 to attack rolls.

[Lord Raziere]

D&D Epic Spellcasters are supplementing their pre-Epic absolute immortality, invulnerability, exponentially growing legions of epic level servants, and quasi-infinite damage, with Epic Spells, the effects of which are "Eh, whatever you feel like." Non-spellcasters are getting +1 to attack rolls.

.......yeah. this is why I don't play DnD 3.5. I knew it was broken. This is just the last nail in the coffin thats already been buried.

Still. there are much better options out there. I mean....no matter how relatively good it is compared DnD in a narrow perspective, in a wider perspective relative to most choices out there, its still a pretty bad choice, as Hiro demonstrated. I still wouldn't use either of them, myself.

[JeenLeen]

I agree this is probably a bad idea, but I'm trying to find a way to do it.

Assuming you want to keep the D&D characters your players currently have, I recommend not trying to convert their stats into Exalted stats. Instead, I recommend building new Exalts from the ground-up, but have the players build them in the same feeling/style their current PCs have.

The system takes some getting use to, but the math is a lot easier. In an epic D&D game I was in, it sometimes took us literal minutes to figure out which buffs and such applied in a given attack roll; that extreme experience is part of why I prefer White Wolf-style d10 now.

Since you say epic play, I recommend having 100 xp to build characters with, in addition to char-gen stats. If you don't feel suitably epic enough, try adding another 30-50 xp. There's a section in the Exalted core rulebook about making elder Exalts (those over a hundred years ago, to a thousand or older) and xp-ranks. I would recommend Essence 5 if you want truly epic. (If you want to emulate some of the crazy brokenness of epic spellcasting, you could go over Essence 5 and allow Essence 6+ Charms, but I gather from your opening post that epic play's unwieldiness is part of the reason you are shifting to d10.) Maybe let them spend 10 xp to get a dot of Background.

Warning: it is very easy to be able to do things like convert an entire city to a given belief, or otherwise control masses, even near basic char-gen. Far easier to do in Exalted than D&D. Just be aware of that. Also, most folk agree that social combat, as written in the rules, is broken (in the sense of doesn't really work, as well as possibly in the sense of overpowered). You may want to limit some Performance, Presence, and Socialize Charms, if you want that aspect minimized.

[Necroticplague]

Warning: it is very easy to be able to do things like convert an entire city to a given belief, or otherwise control masses, even near basic char-gen. Far easier to do in Exalted than D&D. Just be aware of that. Also, most folk agree that social combat, as written in the rules, is broken (in the sense of doesn't really work, as well as possibly in the sense of overpowered). You may want to limit some Performance, Presence, and Socialize Charms, if you want that aspect minimized.

Eh, main problem I found with social combat is how it takes place in Long Ticks, thus leading to the phenomenon of 'Crap, he's starting to sound convincing, start stabbing before he brainwashes us!"

[JeenLeen]

Eh, main problem I found with social combat is how it takes place in Long Ticks, thus leading to the phenomenon of 'Crap, he's starting to sound convincing, start stabbing before he brainwashes us!"

I have heard that the best defense against social combat is physical combat, and in the rules I think it says that a Join Battle action disrupts social combat, causing it to end, so it's legit by the rules. And, really, in a world like Exalted, it makes sense in-char for supernaturals to react like that if they have any idea of what Charms others might have.

For the OP: if you do want to convert over, it might be easier to use a standard array of attributes, abilities, & backgrounds, instead of the default system. My group used:
Attributes: two at 4, two at 2, the rest at 3
Abilities, caste: 3, 3, 2, 2, 0
Abilities, other (including favored): one at 3, four at 2, seven at 1, rest 0
Backgrounds of 3, 2, 1, 1
Essence 3 (but I'd recommend you start with 5, if going for epic feel)
Virtues at 3, 2, 2, 1
Willpower 5
10 Charms of the player's choice
Start with no specialties or combos.

From what I've read here, common houserules are to give free Excellencies in caste and favored skills, and to give bonus ranks of Ox-Body Technique (extra HP) based on... well, I forget the reasoning since my group isn't using those.
There's also an official errata, which is distributed for free, called Scroll of Errata. It changes a few things, most notably to me being that Combos no longer cost xp or Willpower.

Another big difference between Exalted and D&D's mentality is healing. Healing is hard in Exalted; the Medicine Charms stink at it, even with the errata, although there is a martial arts style in one of the splatbooks that is pretty good. Resistance Charms can let you heal a lot faster, but in-combat healing is almost non-existent.
Also, Google 'Exalted paranoia combat' to see how it can be a 'perfect defense everything or die'-type combat. I think I would find the game less fun if it got to that level, but it seems that in really high-xp games, it probably will be at that level.

[goto124]

Eh, main problem I found with social combat is how it takes place in Long Ticks, thus leading to the phenomenon of 'Crap, he's starting to sound convincing, start stabbing before he brainwashes us!"

Difference between PCs and NPCs :P

Although I would start stabbing even before he opens his mouth :P

[meschlum]

Portal of the Lying Corvidae

The Realms are a fascinating place, full of strange monsters and powerful wizards. Yet they have limits, which can be breached by the most powerful adventurers. Beyond, in the weird realm called the Astral, Phlogiston, or some other name, heroes can find new worlds, full of exotic adventure and dangers. Greyhawk, the Mists, Sigil... scores of places where the threats are great, the rewards world shaking, and gold is (almost) always the currency of choice.

Most champions who wander these places eventually settle dwn, after conquering or crushing an empire or so if they live long enough, and dedicate themselves to research or rulership. But a few never tire of new horizons and seek ever stranger realities to exlore and conquer. Some view this goal as a means of extending their already unnaturaly long lives, others do it in the name of their gods or their ideals - be they Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, or Balance - many simply cannot imagine anything but seeking out greater and greater challenges to overcome. The most famous discover new worlds, new ways of thinking - 'scry and die' is a classic that has become part of many basic curricula - others simply refine their backstories.

But a very few recall that first magical moment when they came into this universe of dungeons and dragons, and the simple, endless battles they were sent on against an innumerable rodent horde. In that city where their careers began, at the achway leading into that beginner's city of Crows and other things, there was a brief instant of discontinuity - a moment when existence itself seemed other an alien. And if they return there, wth all their power and authority, they may be permitted topass through the Portal.

The land beyond the Portal calls itself Creation, and is unspeakably alien. Spells imprinted into a mage or priest's mind simply fail. Warriors used to striking down foes who try to retreat find their opportunities limited. Falling from terminal velocity is deadly. Even the most powerful barbarian can be brought down by a single blow. Death is permanent. Truly, it is a nightmarish dimension, full of mad Things that gibber and unravel sanity by their mere proximity. But when has that stopped lords and ladies who have already conquered layers of the Abyss and slain gods?

Perhaps this generation of heroes cannot conquer Creation and return it to sanity. But the planes have hundreds of archmages and other beings of similar power, and they will unravel its workings and rule it in time...

Mechanics

5-dot Chancel
A huge and possibly constantly expanding space with controlled time flow and contents, the Portal is layered with countless Transluscent Dreams, mind and body altering Oneiromancies, and inhabited by numerous Raksha and mortals. Whether it is an Unshaped or not is open to debate, but what is certan is that anything but an Exalt will find that reality conforms to the rules of Dungeons and Dragons in every degree.

Heroes who attain epic level and seem promising are allowed to wander outside the Portal, and have proven more than capable of dealing with Creation's lesser threats, though the cognitve dissonance is painful. Still, they come prepared with Treasures and Graces that can transform more of Creation into Portal-stuff and so it offers both threat and promise: Creation may fall, but men can be immortal and free of gods and primordials alike.

So someone cmgin from D&D into Exalted would basically be an ordinary Heroic Mortal with lot of xp, and probably awakened essence and a few useful Graces Magic tricks. Debatably survivable, but doubtless fun!

[Hiro Protagonest]

There, now this is officially an Exalted thread.

[Lord Raziere]

There, now this is officially an Exalted thread.

hey now, I haven't ranted about something being unfair and stupid even though its a normal expected part of the setting rules, then get told I'm wrong by everyone else who plays Exalted yet. I think its a little quick to call it that, personally.

[Sith_Happens]

HE LIVES!

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd think you're better off adapting something like Nobilis that's already focused on gods doing god things. Exalted, in addition to being every bit as mechanically messy and complicated as D&D*, just has a different feel to it, what with the assumption that everyone is magically-powered paired with the lack of effective combat sorcery (in my experience).

As a counteroffer, might I suggest Mutants and Masterminds? It's a similarly high-power system, but it's much better balanced than either D&D or Exalted**. Since you essentially write your own powers, conversion isn't hard. It does have a weird effect where world-altering power (things like mass necromancy and crafting) basically vanish into the realm of plot, though.

*Excluding epic D&D, I suppose-- Xefas's summary is depressingly accurate.
**I mean, yeah, you can do stupid stuff if you stretch things far enough, but it's incredibly obvious that's what you're doing, and it generally winds up in a grey enough area that the GM is well within his rights to say "that doesn't work."

[Zombimode]

D&D Epic Spellcasters are supplementing their pre-Epic absolute immortality, invulnerability, exponentially growing legions of epic level servants, and quasi-infinite damage, with Epic Spells, the effects of which are "Eh, whatever you feel like." Non-spellcasters are getting +1 to attack rolls.

Sure, but most of this is confined to the realm of theory-crafting since someone actually has to (ab)use the rules for epic spells. While in an actual game, the level 20-25 will probably play rather similiar to the levels 15-20.

[Sith_Happens]

Sure, but most of this is confined to the realm of theory-crafting since someone actually has to (ab)use the rules for epic spells. While in an actual game, the level 20-25 will probably play rather similiar to the levels 15-20.

That still leaves the casters benefiting from each other's Maximized Time Stops while the monk gains the ability to... deal slashing damage.

[Geostationary]

I'd think you're better off adapting something like Nobilis that's already focused on gods doing god things. Exalted, in addition to being every bit as mechanically messy and complicated as D&D*, just has a different feel to it, what with the assumption that everyone is magically-powered paired with the lack of effective combat sorcery (in my experience).

If you think Exalted has a different enough feel to disqualify it, Nobilis is an even worse choice in that regard. Hell, direct combat is discouraged in the actual game rules. You're definitely not going to get that D&D Feeling (tm) from it.

Further, adapting it to the D&D setting may result in some really odd concessions and design choices.