Dysfunctional Rules VII: Mordenkainen's Dysfunction

[NeoPhoenix0]

Time for another thread in a long line of threads collecting rules from 3.5 and pathifnder that just don't seem to work right.

Check the handbook to see if your dysfunction is already there, cause this is the 7th thread.

Previous threads:

"Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly
Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure!
Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata

[Flickerdart]

Dysfunction: "Mordenkainen's Dysfunction" should have been a 9th level thread.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Dysfunction: "Mordenkainen's Dysfunction" should have been a 9th level thread.

We are obviously using shenanigans to cast it in a lower slot. though i am not sure how to get a spell two levels lower

[Flickerdart]

We are obviously using shenanigans to cast it in a lower slot. though i am not sure how to get a spell two levels lower

Shadow miracles to emulate sanctum mordenkainen's dysfunction? Although for anyone casting the spell, GitP is probably the sanctum, so it would actually be a 10th level spell!

[Jormengand]

Something I just noticed is that someone who falls onto their head, onto rocky ground, from nine feet in the air, takes no damage. Because that totally makes sense.

And how is "dispel" defined?

Uhm... does it matter? This argument was literally about whether MKDJ dispels or not, and you seem to accept that as proven.

[Curmudgeon]

Something I just noticed is that someone who falls onto their head, onto rocky ground, from nine feet in the air, takes no damage.

That's because in D&D there is no "facing", so the game world mechanics make it impossible for you to fall onto your head. You simply fall and get a nonspecific ouchie which doesn't matter in terms of performance.

[No brains]

Also the ground doesn't have sneak attack, so it can't attack vital areas like one's head.

[Jormengand]

That's because in D&D there is no "facing", so the game world mechanics make it impossible for you to fall onto your head. You simply fall and get a nonspecific ouchie which doesn't matter in terms of performance.

I think that the inability to perform a handstand is a dysfunction in its own right, though.

[Curmudgeon]

I think that the inability to perform a handstand is a dysfunction in its own right, though.

Oh, you can definitely do that. In fact, you do so while simultaneously looking in all directions, so it's particularly impressive.

[Jormengand]

Oh, you can definitely do that. In fact, you do so while simultaneously looking in all directions, so it's particularly impressive.

Would you like to continue making my point for me?

[With a box]

with this lot dysfuntions, how the game still playable?

[Necroticplague]

with this lot dysfuntions, how the game still playable?

Because alot of these are only dysfunctional is that they aren't realisitc (see curmudeon's above point). However, if you aren't trying to simulate reality, the system still works as a game.

[Jormengand]

Oh, and either "Lava or magma" is a damage type and is never defined as one, or anyone who's immune to lava is immune to any kind of damage caused as a function of lava or magma, for example having a ton of it dropped on their head. The ability "Immunity to lava or magma" (granted by any resistance/immunity to fire, an absurdity that's already listed) either means that you're immune to a damage type called "Lava or magma", or you're immune to a damage type called "Lava" and another one called "Magma", or that you're immune to anything that happens to you as a result of lava or magma.

The first two imply that there are one or two damage types that are never defined in the rules (and anyway, lava and magma are never specified to do "Lava or magma" or "Lava" and "Magma" damage) and the third is just silly.

[Troacctid]

with this lot dysfuntions, how the game still playable?

Because it's not a video game that freezes and crashes when you encounter a bug. Patching up holes in the rules is trivially easy.

[Jormengand]

If you're petrified and turn back to flesh with bits missing, you're dealt an amount of damage. No-one knows how much.

Flying, swimming, and prone creatures can't be fascinated because you have to be standing or sitting.

If a barbarian would get improved uncanny dodge, but already has uncanny dodge from another class, he gets IUD instead of... IUD.

A Thousand Faces is and isn't an illusion.

I would take off "Woodland Stride makes you immune to damage (etc.) when in undergrowth" because it only works if the druid is actually moving.

20th-level outsider monks are unlike other outsiders in that they can be brought back from the dead as though they were outsiders, which can't be brought back from the dead.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Actually, can anyone give an example of something that causes the petrified condition?
Flesh to stone and basilisks don't actually cause this condition.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, can anyone give an example of something that causes the petrified condition?
Flesh to stone and basilisks don't actually cause this condition.

Oh, but they do. From the Glossary:

petrified: Turned to stone.

It's not necessary to call out that exact term; it's only necessary that the creature be turned to stone.

[NeoPhoenix0]

If a barbarian would get improved uncanny dodge, but already has uncanny dodge from another class, he gets IUD instead of... IUD.

20th-level outsider monks are unlike other outsiders in that they can be brought back from the dead as though they were outsiders, which can't be brought back from the dead.

These two typographical errors do not appear in the official SRD or my version of the PHB.

Oh, but they do. From the Glossary: It's not necessary to call out that exact term; it's only necessary that the creature be turned to stone.

This tells us all instances of petrification involve turning to stone. This does not necessarily mean all instances of turning to stone are petrification.

[Chronos]

Eh, all of the stoning creatures' abilities have "petrify" or "petrification" in the name.

On the other hand, though, basilisks and medusas turn their targets into stone permanently, not instantaneously, which has some odd implications.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Eh, all of the stoning creatures' abilities have "petrify" or "petrification" in the name.

On the other hand, though, basilisks and medusas turn their targets into stone permanently, not instantaneously, which has some odd implications.

neat, i might make an npc sometime that was attacked by a basilisk and has a permanent anti-magic field with them.

[Jormengand]

These two typographical errors do not appear in the official SRD or my version of the PHB.

Are you sure? This is the SRD I'm using:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead [of improved uncanny dodge], and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type. [Even if that previous creature type was outsider, which can't be brought back from the dead, so you can be brought back from the dead as though you were an outsider, who can't be brought back from the dead, unlike other outsiders who cannot be brought back from the dead.]

[Curmudgeon]

If a barbarian would get improved uncanny dodge, but already has uncanny dodge from another class, he gets IUD instead of... IUD.

That would be IUD from the Barbarian class instead of IUD from the other class. Does it make a difference? Probably not, because all of these ability descriptions seem to also state

and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

but it does guaranteed the Barbarian gets to use all their relevant levels against the Rogue attempting to flank them in case that other class with IUD lacks a stacking statement.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Are you sure? This is the SRD I'm using:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm

1. those links are to a very accurate copy of the SRD. they aren't the official SRD that can be located here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
2. In this case, the copy has the same wording, but some things have been found to be inaccurate in the past on very rare occasions.
a. In this case the barbarian text is redundant text that can cover some weird outlying cases, but in the end doesn't case anything to act strange rules wise so i don't see any issues.
b. monks who went from outsider to outsider can be brought back from the dead in the same way outsiders can. Outsiders can be brought back it is just a bit harder. In this case it requires limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection. so this is just some redundancy.

[No brains]

I would just think that lava or magma deals fire damage, as it sets things on fire. But that doesn't actually do fire damage itself, so I dunno. Say, can someone be on fire while submerged in magma? I can get that magma is hot enough for most materials to oxidize, but when there's no oxygen, you drown in magma while being lit on fire.

As for the monk being raised as an outsider, I thought they became a native outsider, which has an exception among outsiders for their ability to be raised from the dead.

[Jormengand]

1. those links are to a very accurate copy of the SRD. they aren't the official SRD that can be located here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
2. In this case, the copy has the same wording, but some things have been found to be inaccurate in the past on very rare occasions.
a. In this case the barbarian text is redundant text that can cover some weird outlying cases, but in the end doesn't case anything to act strange rules wise so i don't see any issues.
b. monks who went from outsider to outsider can be brought back from the dead in the same way outsiders can. Outsiders can be brought back it is just a bit harder. In this case it requires limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection. so this is just some redundancy.

Anything that tries to grant an ability instead of granting the same ability, or says that this outsider is different from other outsiders because it can be resurrected just like an outsider (what about construct monks, anyhow?), would appear to be dysfunctional, even if it's only unhelpful rather than actually "Crashing the game" or actually even changing anything.

[NeoPhoenix0]

It isn't dysfunctional, it functions how it is supposed to do and nothing more. Occasionally that means when it is functioning properly it does nothing.

[Jormengand]

It isn't dysfunctional, it functions how it is supposed to do and nothing more. Occasionally that means when it is functioning properly it does nothing.

But the monk specifies that it's "Unlike other outsiders" even if it's not. It's misinformation.

[Ksheep]

Re: Petrify, I notice that Flesh To Stone doesn't mention that the target is Petrified, but it does include the "if the statue is broken or damaged, the creature is similarly damaged or deformed (if returned to it's original state)" ^{Slightly paraphrased}. So… does Petrification/Flesh To Stone give us a use for Regenerate? IIRC, we had mentioned in one of the earlier threads that there really weren't many (if any) in-game causes for loss of digits, limbs, or other body parts which Regenerate would fix. Does that mean that it was made solely for fixing someone who was petrified/turned to stone? Still doesn't give any use for the other half of Regenerate though, what with fixing broken bones and damaged organs…

To be honest, I was just posting something in here so I could be notified when there are new posts. Don't have much to add at this point which hasn't already been added.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Re: Petrify, I notice that Flesh To Stone doesn't mention that the target is Petrified, but it does include the "if the statue is broken or damaged, the creature is similarly damaged or deformed (if returned to it's original state)" ^{Slightly paraphrased}. So… does Petrification/Flesh To Stone give us a use for Regenerate? IIRC, we had mentioned in one of the earlier threads that there really weren't many (if any) in-game causes for loss of digits, limbs, or other body parts which Regenerate would fix. Does that mean that it was made solely for fixing someone who was petrified/turned to stone? Still doesn't give any use for the other half of Regenerate though, what with fixing broken bones and damaged organs…

To be honest, I was just posting something in here so I could be notified when there are new posts. Don't have much to add at this point which hasn't already been added.

It was probably just left over from earlier editions that were generally a little less rulesy and more descriptive in implementation.

[JDL]

Pathfinder

Vermin familiars, eg. Greensting Scorpion, gain an Intelligence score for being a familiar and lose the Mindless trait. Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. Creatures who gain a permanent increase to Intelligence gain feats and skills retroactively. However since "Familiars retain the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was," being a Familiar prevents the creature gaining the benefits of having an Intelligence score. A Familiar wearing a Headband of Vast Intelligence would be similarly prevented from gaining skill ranks from this item due to the same rule.