[PF/3.X] Nerfing casters for arena fights

[The Insanity]

I'm making an arena and looking for ideas how could casters be limited for the fights to be more fair. The people who run the arena realized that spells are just too powerful and versatile and it's too easy for casters to just nova, so they came up with a set of rules governing the use of magic. Sorta like in League of Legends, where the champions have only a few abilities (both for simplicity's sake and programing limitations), which in-character is explained as the Institute of War nerfing them for the matches to be fair.
Maybe limiting the number of spells they can use in the arena would be enough?

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm assuming these are spectated fights for entertainment rather than duels for honor/conflict resolution.

It's first and foremost dependent on whether the martial characters involved can stand up to casters at all, which is usually not the case. If you're not making frequent use of Path of War and the related content, I'd separate casters and martial entirely into two different groups, and I'd probably do so even with PoW (and allow 6ths-casters to participate in either group).

Arena fights are supposed to be flashy. Spells in caster/martial duels should be very limited, with only spells pre-approved by referees (or equivalent), i.e. if a caster wants use of a spell, they have to ask to use it (and provide a demonstration if requested). Keep it to things with obvious visual effects, e.g. most evocations and conjurations, plus some transmutation and abjuration effects. Dispel Magic is lame, death/paralysis/sleep/fear other long-duration action-denial is lame, illusions are lame, action-control (Celerity, Time Stop) is lame. Power Words are lame. Invisible self-buffs (True Strike, Heroism) are lame.

Summons are cool, wall of X is cool, flashy buffs like Arcane Spellsurge and Polymorph (when not used to switch to a ranged flier and win by attrition) are cool, black tentacles is cool. Lightning Bolt and Orb of X are cool. Keep it to stuff that looks good.

Alternately (or perhaps additionally), send casters up against monsters. Having a sorcerer go up against a grey render or a behir would be a lot cooler than watching him bring the beatdown on some poor rogue.

[The Insanity]

I'm assuming these are spectated fights for entertainment rather than duels for honor/conflict resolution.

Neither. They're tournaments for prizes and fame.

It's first and foremost dependent on whether the martial characters involved can stand up to casters at all, which is usually not the case. If you're not making frequent use of Path of War and the related content, I'd separate casters and martial entirely into two different groups, and I'd probably do so even with PoW (and allow 6ths-casters to participate in either group).

I had the same idea, but I decided against it. It wouldn't be too fun to have only martials fight. More variety makes for more interesting matches.

[Twurps]

Well: first of all the organizers have realized that wizards using planeshift/astral projection etc is not fun, because spectators then don't get to see anything. So: Rules state that the participant has to be physically present in the arena at all times. leaving in any way means you forfeit the fight.

Second: Participants start the competition without any spells active. Before the actual fight, but already inside the arena, participants get X rounds to prepare there buffs. (In these rounds, if you cast any spell/use any sp/su/ex ability that has ANY effect either on the opponent, or on the area he is in, you forfeit the fight.

Third: Participants have to appear in the fight alone. (Allies can be summoned in the preperation rounds however, same rules then applies to them for the remainder of the preparation time and fight).

forth: particpants can enter with items not exeeding WBL in value.

optional: time stop is disallowed. Not because it's broken, but because it doesn't offer any 'value for money' for the spectators.
optional: contingencies, other that the ones you can prepare during your prep-rounds, are off limits.
optional: Celerity is not allowed, or even strickter: casters are limited to 1 spell per round. casting more that one (not counting contingencies going off), means you forfeit the match.

As safety precautions: spectators are protected by some sort of force-field (Wall of force?) and covered in an AMF just within that forcefield so that participants can 'blast away' freely. Also: Measures have been taken by the organizers to ensure participants don't really die. Be it through contingent revivify's and/or any other spell required. (how else are you going to convince any wizard to participate in such a nerfed fight)

That should make some interesting fights, and also allows 'rematches' where the defeated party can try to counter his opponent better next time. Fights might even be: Best 2 out of 3, or similar. A large variety of magic items is even at hand so the participant that realizes he brought the wrong item's can swap these out (still adhering to WBL rules, and for only a modest percentage of his potential winnings)

[The Insanity]

Well: first of all the organizers have realized that wizards using planeshift/astral projection etc is not fun, because spectators then don't get to see anything. So: Rules state that the participant has to be physically present in the arena at all times. leaving in any way means you forfeit the fight.

As already said, it's not a show, so this rule would be more for fairness than the spectators's sake.

Second: Participants start the competition without any spells active. Before the actual fight, but already inside the arena, participants get X rounds to prepare there buffs. (In these rounds, if you cast any spell/use any sp/su/ex ability that has ANY effect either on the opponent, or on the area he is in, you forfeit the fight.

I don't know about that. Would it be fair to give casters time to prepare? Martials don't really have anything they could do in that time, so...

Third: Participants have to appear in the fight alone. (Allies can be summoned in the preperation rounds however, same rules then applies to them for the remainder of the preparation time and fight).

I'm also allowing things like animal companions, familiars and similar stuff. They're not OP like spells and some classes/concepts are dependant on them.

forth: particpants can enter with items not exeeding WBL in value.

I don't allow magic equipment. The participants are supposed to win by their skill, not fancy gear.

optional: time stop is disallowed. Not because it's broken, but because it doesn't offer any 'value for money' for the spectators.

Spectators aren't the issue. Fairness is. Time Stop isn't particularly OP, Although it might not be available due to being too high level. Depends on what method I'll use for this.

optional: contingencies, other that the ones you can prepare during your prep-rounds, are off limits.

Agree.

optional: Celerity is not allowed, or even strickter: casters are limited to 1 spell per round. casting more that one (not counting contingencies going off), means you forfeit the match.

Don't know about Celerity, but limiting the number of spells per round is too much, I think. If the caster invested in such a strategy (by taking Quicken Spell or something) I'd say let him. Might not even be an issue, depending on how I'll handle this.

[Zanos]

I don't allow magic equipment. The participants are supposed to win by their skill, not fancy gear..

That exacerbates the martial vs. caster problem pretty significantly.

[Togo]

I don't allow magic equipment. The participants are supposed to win by their skill, not fancy gear.

That may be an issue. Non-casters gain far more than casters do from magic items, because it gives them access to spell effects.

[Twurps]

As already said, it's not a show, so this rule would be more for fairness than the spectators's sake.

Yeah, I wrote this post on the OP, and got ninja'd. If no spectators, then the showfactor is mute, and so is some of my advice.

Fairness is a thing. However: If you don't allow magic items, it's going to be a caster's only fight anyway probably. And then things like planeshift/timestop/celerity become less of an issue.

If you want melee's in the mix, they are going to need items, and they are going to need to have all the above veto'd.

I don't know about that. Would it be fair to give casters time to prepare? Martials don't really have anything they could do in that time, so...

Fair point: I was thinking caster vs. caster there, and had an audience in mind that might like both the buffing, and the more spectacular fight that might follow. No prep time is definitely better for melee's. (Given you start them off close to each other, or the point is mute)

[Extra Anchovies]

Note: when I say caster in this post I mean full (i.e. 9ths) caster.

That exacerbates the martial vs. caster problem pretty significantly.

Strongly agreed.

As already said, it's not a show, so this rule would be more for fairness than the spectators's sake.

Then casters and martial characters shouldn't be fighting each other.

I don't know about that. Would it be fair to give casters time to prepare? Martials don't really have anything they could do in that time, so...

Any amount of prep time only increases the huge advantage casters will have. I'd give martials a surprise round to get into melee range or land a ranged attack.

I'm also allowing things like animal companions, familiars and similar stuff. They're not OP like spells and some classes/concepts are dependant on them.

Familiars and companions can be very powerful if optimized and/or used properly. I would ban animal companions and non-PHB familiars (e.g. improved familiar, celestial familiars, etc).

Time Stop isn't particularly OP

Not compared to Gate or Shapchange, but it's one of the most powerful ninth-level spells. But by that point martial characters won't stand a chance unless you ban every spell above third level.

Don't know about Celerity, but limiting the number of spells per round is too much, I think. If the caster invested in such a strategy (by taking Quicken Spell or something) I'd say let him. Might not even be an issue, depending on how I'll handle this.

I'd ban metamagic entirely, or at the very least metamagic reduction effects of all kinds. You'd have to hit casters hard to balance them against, say, a Barbarian in a 1v1.

[The Insanity]

Fairness is a thing. However: If you don't allow magic items, it's going to be a caster's only fight anyway probably.

That's why I made this thread. To get ideas how to limit casters. Although I should specify for future reference that I don't mean houserules, but in-character rules the arena would have.

[The Insanity]

Then casters and martial characters shouldn't be fighting each other.

That's not fun.

Any amount of prep time only increases the huge advantage casters will have. I'd give martials a surprise round to get into melee range or land a ranged attack.

If fighting a caster at his full power, maybe. But this thread is about "nerfing" casters, not improving martials. The caster will be more closer to the martial's power and thus no advantages for either side will be necessary.

Familiars and companions can be very powerful if optimized and/or used properly.

I have no problem with that.

Not compared to Gate or Shapchange, but it's one of the most powerful ninth-level spells. But by that point martial characters won't stand a chance unless you ban every spell above third level.

Which might happen. As I said, it wholy depends on what I come up with or what people will suggest. It might come to, for example, limiting (full) casters to spells of a level not higher than a caster half their level (rounding up).

[With a box]

If it's a show, plan their move beforehand. Like prowrestling organization dose.

[The Insanity]

If it's a show

As was stated, it's not.

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for perfect, metagame balance. Some participants will be stronger than others, due to optimization, being a bit higher level, or simply having the right strategy against a particular opponent. All I'm trying to do is making it more or less equal at the base.

[Extra Anchovies]

If fighting a caster at his full power, maybe. But this thread is about "nerfing" casters, not improving martials. The caster will be more closer to the martial's power and thus no advantages for either side will be necessary.

Okay.
1. No prep time or previously-cast spells for either combatant.
2. Replace spells/day progressions of full casters with those of 6ths-casters.

Not sure what to do about 6ths-casters. Maybe give them the spells/day of 4ths-casters.

[Vhaidara]

Well, you need to ban movement modes. Especially without magical gear.

Fly. Done.

[Twurps]

So: to make melee's vs caster viable, something like:
-1 caster level penalty every 3 levels. (So by the time you normally get to 9, you're now at 6. A gish that would only get to 6 is stuck at 4).
-no prep rounds
-no flying, burrowing, swimming. Land based movement only.
-starting position within 60ft

It would still require a specialized melee build. But a good ToB build (With save-replacing maneuvers) might at this point very well one-shot the caster on a succesfull charge.

The 'no bufffing at all' is a bit harsh though, because it means melee get to play low-level rocket tag just as casters normally do at high levels. I guess if both parties are playing rocket tag, that's still fair, but at that point, why not just flip a coin. If you want the outcome to be dependent on more than 1 roll/round, Casters need a little bit of prepping. (Or better, start them further apart)
Maybe give them prep time, but impose a larger penalty on caster levels. Something like half, rounded down (so you get 5th level spells)

[Jack_Simth]

Neither. They're tournaments for prizes and fame.

That's the motivation for those fighting, sure. The person providing the venue and prizes (also potentially advertising to the crowd), however, almost certainly has an entirely different purpose. What's in it for that person? This is also going to be the person who, in character, is making the rules for the arena, so the rules will reflect that person's purpose.

[The Insanity]

The purpose is to see who's the best at fighting.

I realize that probably the easiest and best solution would be to just ban spellcasters. But by banning them you'd throw out so many cool concepts that I just can't get myself to do it. Even if I'd limit fullcasters to, for example, just 4th level spells (or even just a few spells up to that level), that's still dozens if not hundreds of spells that would make for very interesting fights. And yeah, by optimizing the caster's spell selection you probably could make something very strong, but so could you with a martial.
Look at LoL. Most casters in that game have only 4 spells. Some of them are quite versatile, but what makes them strong is how the spells interact and synergize together. I'd want the casters who'll participate in this arena to do similar things. They'll be limited in what they can do, so they'll have to come up with good strategies and synergies for their spells. At least that's what I hope to achieve.

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, the only way you are going to manage this is an agreement between you and the players that no one will be a **** about this. Like, seriously. Hard rules will NEVER cover everything.

[The Insanity]

Even if it was about players, lets say they'd agree to be super nice. How would they know what's being "a ****" and what's not, without any actual rules being set up beforehand? And yes, we could all play nice, but without rules how would I explain, in-character, why casters aren't using their full powers?
But it's not about players. It's about in-character rules for an arena that wants to give casters a chance at participating but is aware that it wouldn't be fair to non-casters, so they set up limitations.

[Vhaidara]

That's the problem. There are so many ways that people can use casters to absolutely break the game that you can't cover all of them. The higher your level, the worse it gets. There are more spells that are problematic than that aren't, especially among spells that people would actually use, especially among those that people would actually use in combat

[The Insanity]

And there are many ways to break the game with non-casters too. But I'm not trying to "break-proof" the game.

Can you maybe give some examples of how a "nerfed" caster could still break the game so absolutely? Lets say the caster is limited to just 5th level spells, and common sense things, like leaving the arena, aren't allowed.

Also, I was thinking about banning Charms and Compulsions, on the basis that dominating your opponent's mind is not combat. I'm not banning the entire Enchantment school because it has some buffs and debuffs (IIRC) that would be useful to a gish or someone like that.

Comming back to the magic item issue. I guess I could give the characters magic items per se, or at least their effects. It's a variant/houserule we were going to implement into our home setting, that allows anyone of high enough power to develop some magical powers. It changes WBL into virtual upgrade points. That way fluff-wise the characters wouldn't use fancy gear (only mundane gear they really need, like weapons and armor) and their magic powers would be explained as them just being that badass, and mechanics-wise they wouldn't be nerfed. Is that okay?

[Zanos]

Maybe you have to enter the contest as a caster of a single school, and can only cast spells from that school or be disqualified?

Doesn't stop casters from still being amazing, but will prevent them from dominating everything, maybe.

[The Insanity]

Even with my very limited knowledge of casters, I know that that won't work in th slightest. Most schools will still let casters dominate, while others would be nearly useless in combat.

[Jack_Simth]

The purpose is to see who's the best at fighting.

So... what, the king is putting on a competition to see who goes on the elite forces team or some such? OK.

Well, with that sort of motivation, limitations should be based on how things are expected to be used. So, for instance, if a day's mission is expected to likely take four or five encounters, then the competition should reflect this. For any given spell level, the caster can't use more than 1/5th of their spell slots (minimum 1) in the competition.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can you maybe give some examples of how a "nerfed" caster could still break the game so absolutely? Lets say the caster is limited to just 5th level spells, and common sense things, like leaving the arena, aren't allowed.

My opponent is swordsman. I cast fly. Now he can't hit me.
My opponent is an archer. I cast wind wall in a cylinder around myself. Now he can't hit me.
I cast solid fog. My opponent loses four rounds getting out while I fling AoE spells at him.
I cast greater invisibility. My opponent can't see me until the fight is over.

And that's not even touching all the spells that can take you out of the fight with a single failed save-- glitterdust, blindness/deafness, hideous laughter, stinking cloud...

If you want fairness, casters should be limited to direct damage spells and a designated list of personal buffs-- things like mage armor and heroism that improve your numbers without totally changing the game like flight or invisibility.

[The Insanity]

So... what, the king is putting on a competition to see who goes on the elite forces team or some such? OK.

No. A guy/group with too much money and time want to see who is the bast "warrior" in the land.

My opponent is swordsman. I cast fly. Now he can't hit me.
My opponent is an archer. I cast wind wall in a cylinder around myself. Now he can't hit me.
I cast solid fog. My opponent loses four rounds getting out while I fling AoE spells at him.
I cast greater invisibility. My opponent can't see me until the fight is over.

And that's not even touching all the spells that can take you out of the fight with a single failed save-- glitterdust, blindness/deafness, hideous laughter, stinking cloud...

If the caster's opponent can't deal with that then he deserves to lose. As long as the caster won't be able to use all that at the same time, it should be okay.

If you want fairness, casters should be limited to direct damage spells and a designated list of personal buffs-- things like mage armor and heroism that improve your numbers without totally changing the game like flight or invisibility.

That doesn't make for interesting combat.

[Vhaidara]

That doesn't make for interesting combat.

Neither does flying up about 50ft and spamming a SoD spell. Or spamming SoS spells until your opponent is crippled beyond belief.

[The Insanity]

Well, that's a problem that I'd like to solve, preferably without removing too much fun from casters.
Besides, YMMV. It would be interesting to see how the caster's opponent would deal with that conundrum.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe a special format is needed for caster vs. melee fights. Have the caster stand on a platform in the middle of the arena, have the melee enter the arena at any of four doors, hidden. The caster can self-buff all they want (until the melee hits them), the melee can sneak all they want (until the caster kills them), and the audience (if any) gets a view from above.