Where do all the Evil ones go?

[Centik]

Well, this'll be my first post on this forum so, to those browsing and had the simple misfortune of clicking on my question, hello! Now, to my question:

I'm playing a Lawful Evil cleric of Asmodeus in my buddy's Wrath of the Righteous/home-brew amalgamation campaign and, as I like to do, I read a LOT about hell and all of its inhabitants. What eluded me, however, was the final resting place for the followers of Asmodeus and other demon lords. We know that all alignments have their own respective planes that they enter once they die, but from what I've read about hell and its many layers there doesn't seem to be a specified area for the fiendish followers of the world (Golarion in my case). Good folk go to heaven and hang out with their dead friends and family, but Evil clerics just... what? Burn in hellish fire like the rest of the damned souls? It just doesn't seem like a solid lifestyle choice if that's the case. So, my fellow wizards, clerics, fighters and the such, does anyone have any ideas?

[Lurkmoar]

I thought they were turned into Lemures and started working up the food chain to get ranked. Though I imagine some particularly successful clerics get promoted faster or become Liches before they die.

[Karl Aegis]

They go to their designated outer plane and go about their business as usual. Very few people actually meet outsiders in outer planes when compared to how many people are in the outer planes. A cleric of Asmodeus probably would get a desk job pointing people in the direction of some paperwork that's downstairs in a room with fiendish leopards.

[Red Fel]

Good folk go to heaven and hang out with their dead friends and family, but Evil clerics just... what? Burn in hellish fire like the rest of the damned souls? It just doesn't seem like a solid lifestyle choice if that's the case.

Pretty much this, but you're missing the bigger picture - to the Lawful Evil, the Hells aren't a punishment.

Let me explain. One of Lawful Evil's defining traits is ambition. Planning. Desire to use the hierarchy to exploit others even as you improve your own standing. A willingness to inflict suffering on others, particularly those who inflicted it on you, as you build yourself up.

That's what the Lawful Evil afterlife is. It's the ultimate climbing opportunity. With very few exceptions, everyone starts in the same place - the bottom of the totem pole - but they all have the opportunity to ascend. Betray your fellows, abuse them, dominate them, bend them to your will, and you will rise in the diabolical ranks. There is always something above, a higher level to which to look up. And those higher up constantly abuse their power, promoting and demoting devils as they like, changing expectations and moving goalposts. It's a constant competition of ambition versus ambition, an exercise in ceaseless animosity and schemes within schemes. It's what they always wanted to do in life, the chance to put the full extent of their conniving to the ultimate test, without having to worry about those idiotic heroes coming in and mucking things up.

Lawful Evil Clerics have the added advantage of being prepared. Unlike those who are incidentally LE, LE Clerics know exactly what's coming. They want it. They crave it.

To the Lawful Evil, the Hells are heavenly.

[IZ42]

Pretty much this, but you're missing the bigger picture - to the Lawful Evil, the Hells aren't a punishment.

Let me explain. One of Lawful Evil's defining traits is ambition. Planning. Desire to use the hierarchy to exploit others even as you improve your own standing. A willingness to inflict suffering on others, particularly those who inflicted it on you, as you build yourself up.

That's what the Lawful Evil afterlife is. It's the ultimate climbing opportunity. With very few exceptions, everyone starts in the same place - the bottom of the totem pole - but they all have the opportunity to ascend. Betray your fellows, abuse them, dominate them, bend them to your will, and you will rise in the diabolical ranks. There is always something above, a higher level to which to look up. And those higher up constantly abuse their power, promoting and demoting devils as they like, changing expectations and moving goalposts. It's a constant competition of ambition versus ambition, an exercise in ceaseless animosity and schemes within schemes. It's what they always wanted to do in life, the chance to put the full extent of their conniving to the ultimate test, without having to worry about those idiotic heroes coming in and mucking things up.

Lawful Evil Clerics have the added advantage of being prepared. Unlike those who are incidentally LE, LE Clerics know exactly what's coming. They want it. They crave it.

To the Lawful Evil, the Hells are heavenly.

Yet another excellent summation of the LE mentality by Red Fel. To go off on a related subject, followers of NE patrons are probably the most screwed even if they know what they're getting themselves into, if you read the fluff on Abaddon, because daemons are nucking futs, if you'll pardon my french.

[goto124]

Basically, LE clerics spend their afterlives in fantasy hell, poking at hapless victims with pitchforks while laughing manically?

[Red Fel]

The point is that every afterlife gives its petitioners more of what they wanted out of life. For LG, that means service, honor, worship, and love. For CG, it means freedom, passion, expression, and joy. For LN, it means order, structure, routine and hierarchy. For LE, it means ambition, conniving, backstabbing and cunning. For CE, it means brutality, bloodshed, a constant struggle for savage dominance. And so forth. The Evil afterlives seem bad to us, because most people don't like that stuff; but for those who do, apart from the fire and pain, it's the kind of place you can really cut loose and be yourself. Particularly if you're on the top of the heap instead of the bottom. And because of the constant back and forth, you never stay on top for long - which means you have plenty of time to climb back up again.

[Flickerdart]

Don't most Evil souls just get eaten by powerful fiends without ever getting to be even lemures?

[goto124]

I would say since LE cleric served their gods so loyally, they earned the higher ranks and get to enjoy. These clerics are exceptional, and there's no point wasting them.

They're not one of the 'most'.

[Centik]

Pretty much this, but you're missing the bigger picture - to the Lawful Evil, the Hells aren't a punishment.

Let me explain. One of Lawful Evil's defining traits is ambition. Planning. Desire to use the hierarchy to exploit others even as you improve your own standing. A willingness to inflict suffering on others, particularly those who inflicted it on you, as you build yourself up.

That's what the Lawful Evil afterlife is. It's the ultimate climbing opportunity. With very few exceptions, everyone starts in the same place - the bottom of the totem pole - but they all have the opportunity to ascend. Betray your fellows, abuse them, dominate them, bend them to your will, and you will rise in the diabolical ranks. There is always something above, a higher level to which to look up. And those higher up constantly abuse their power, promoting and demoting devils as they like, changing expectations and moving goalposts. It's a constant competition of ambition versus ambition, an exercise in ceaseless animosity and schemes within schemes. It's what they always wanted to do in life, the chance to put the full extent of their conniving to the ultimate test, without having to worry about those idiotic heroes coming in and mucking things up.

Lawful Evil Clerics have the added advantage of being prepared. Unlike those who are incidentally LE, LE Clerics know exactly what's coming. They want it. They crave it.

To the Lawful Evil, the Hells are heavenly.

I like this response a lot. I think my character would look forward to an afterlife of intrigue and backstabbing! ALSO: Stealing that quote. It's pretty mint.

[Centik]

The Evil afterlives seem bad to us, because most people don't like that stuff; but for those who do, apart from the fire and pain, it's the kind of place you can really cut loose and be yourself.

The funny part is: My cleric is a pyro in every sense of the word. Got a problem? Fire. This whole "hell" thing is starting to suit him more and more.

[Grek]

Red Fel hits it right on the nose, but let me add that for Asmodeus in particular, your hellish heaven of choice is the Baatorian Layer of Nessus, which is an ice cold, snowy wasteland full of pits and ravines. You start your life at the bottom of a hole, packed in like sardines with other lemures. Then you fight and claw and kill your way up the top of the pit, at which point you wander the wastes, climbing walls and striking treacherous alliances with other escapees who are just as evil and driven as you are. Eventually you make your way to Malsheem, the Citadel of Hell, which rises up from the deepest pit of them all. Once you make it there (almost certainly betraying your allies along the way) you get an audience with Asmodeus himself, who transforms you into a mighty fiend and assigns you your place in the infernal hierarchy.

Or so the Archclerics tell it... Who knows if they're telling you the whole story.

[Hawkstar]

A big thing about the Hells is all the half-truths and deceit about it. Red Fel's actually wrong about the hells being 'heavenly' to LE - they are led to believe that it's a world they can climb the ranks and become powerful Archdevils. They aren't told that:
1. They're most likely to just be devoured.
2. If they aren't, they're completely destroyed and rewritten.
3. Almost all archdevil places are taken.
4. The perks are only for qualified individuals, which you are not.

There are two big reasons to Worship Evil:
1. You actually buy the Devil's sales pitch (And they laugh at you for all eternity). It's a con/scam by all moral standards, but fully legal on a technicality.
2. You're short-sighted, and make a pact with a fiend for power in the mortal realm, believing that you can ultimately avoid your final fate. You think you're a step ahead, but the house ALWAYS wins.
3. You know you're evil by nature (Not in the cosmic sense, but as in it's just your personality), and you're desperate for an "out" of the hell you're doomed to, and fall into Reason 1.

At least that's the case for the poor, deluded Devil Worshipers.

Worshipers of Evil Gods, however, tend to have things better off, since their deity usually looks out for them (In a manner according to their personalities, of course).

Demons and CE is a different story, simply because Chaos prevents the misery from being consistent. Depending on the current mood, any given demon may decide to take you along for an abyssal drunken joyride instead of just torture and mutilate you.

[Brookshw]

Don't most Evil souls just get eaten by powerful fiends without ever getting to be even lemures?

Correct, out of a million souls only a small handful get the joy of being lemures, the rest are eaten/ground up for soul paste/whatever. So Congrats to that tiny handful, you now get the joy of being front and center in the meat grinder called the blood war. Out of every 200k lemures a tiny handful once more get the joy of competing to be laughably higher on the totem pole and one or two gets to step up. Your next incarnation? Will also be front and center in the meat grinder called the blood war. As will the one above that. Once you get past this point (you lucky 1 in a trillion you, wait, did I say trillion? What comes after that? Okay, what comes after that? Right, you lucky 1 in a bloody lot whatever it is at that point) finally begins the standard-ish byzantine power struggle to move up in the world as something not guaranteed for the meat grinder (though you might end up there anyway). At this point everyone on par and below you is trying to stop your ascent and everyone above you is happy to stomp on your face because they had eggs for breakfast but decided afterwards what they had really been in the mood for was a bagel.

So I guess what I'm saying is being LE gives you an afterlife somewhat akin to being an imperial guard in 40k.

[Frozen_Feet]

There's more to it than that. Whether afterlife is or isn't a reward is rather immaterial to how someone truly Evil would choose to live their life.

Notice how Clerics, specifically, can remain non-good even though they have high Wisdom? Even though they, of all people, should be able to see what's wrong with it?

They actually see beyond that. They have the necessary mental skills to jump through the hoops necessary to believe that the universe's morality is wrong, and their morality is right, and then the willpower to stick with their stance no matter what. They're the ultimate sort of idealist. Even if their designated afterlife would be the worst thing ever, they would still stick with their beliefs because that is, to them, what's right. You don't yield before the feeble morality of the world and its meager rewards, even if it costs you everything.

[Grek]

I find Hawkstar's answer unsatisfying. Sure, it makes for a feelgood story about how Evil is bad and dumb for being Evil and how they will all suffer in the end... but it doesn't make sense for a setting. If powerful evil clerics exist, surely they would be aware that being Evil is a bad idea. They have the power to visit Hell and see whether there are actual awards awaiting them. So I reject it. If you are Evil, you get judged by Evil Gods who reward Evil and punish Goodness. And if you are Evil enough, you get rewarded in Evil ways, like being allowed to lord over the souls of the damned and arbitrarily punish those below you.

[JAL_1138]

Most servants of Evil think they're the exception--they're special, they're going to be rewarded--and don't really expect to wind up a Lemure on the bottom of the food chain, but expectations do not necessarily match reality.

[Red Fel]

Most servants of Evil think they're the exception--they're special, they're going to be rewarded--and don't really expect to wind up a Lemure on the bottom of the food chain, but expectations do not necessarily match reality.

This.

Now, Hawkstar makes some good points - not all Evil creatures are Evil with an eye on the afterlife. Some are Evil ideologically - they're looking for power in the short run, and as a rule, Evil is often easier - and frequently more profitable - than Good. Others embrace the idea of power at any price, unaware or unappreciative of the price.

But the fact is, one doesn't become Evil and plan to lose. Sure, lots of villains plan short-term loss gambits, where losing the battle can still win you the war, but most plan for victory. And victory in Hell is pretty damned impressive - Devils are recognizable symbols of Evil power, authority, and success.

Yes, most who embrace Evil will wind up at the bottom of the afterlife totem pole, with a life expectancy of a snowball in the same place. But Evil doesn't look at that and say, "Sheesh, odds are bad, time to pursue redemption." Evil looks at that and says, "Wow, just think about how many people I'll have to destroy to get where I'm headed." Evil - at least Evil that isn't stupid - recognizes the risks. It just chooses to face them, to overcome them, to become great. That is, great by Evil standards.

I'll readily admit, however, that some are simply mooks, pawns, rubes and idiots. They buy into the hype, they drink the kool-aid, and they wind up in a bad place wondering what went wrong. They're the easiest targets for the ones who know what they're doing.

EDIT:

I like this response a lot. I think my character would look forward to an afterlife of intrigue and backstabbing! ALSO: Stealing that quote. It's pretty mint.

By all means. And my influence expands.

[ondonaflash]

Or so the Archclerics tell it... Who knows if they're telling you the whole story.

They'd be fools, to tell you everything they knew. You can't take their word for it. They're probably trying to double cross you!

[Cluedrew]

I'll readily admit, however, that some are simply mooks, pawns, rubes and idiots. They buy into the hype, they drink the kool-aid, and they wind up in a bad place wondering what went wrong. They're the easiest targets for the ones who know what they're doing.

A lot of people have this problem on some scale, sometimes this bad, sometimes in an insignificant way, often somewhere in between.

This reminds me of a story I wrote a some time ago. Skipping most of it one part that sticks with me is the death of the main villains number 2. He was a rough guy, didn't was regularly, wore worn out clothing and rarely smiled when not in a life-or-death situation. You only get one thought line from him the entire story, as he sees the attack that will kill him coming in. "So this is it. I wonder if I'll go to hell. Maybe their will be people like me there... that would be nice." It really is a matter of perspective what 'heaven' is. For him it was an endless fight for his life and comradely which he never found in life.

On a similar note I've heard some descriptions of heaven from the times of the witch hunt with are rather messed up. Which shows quite in a very different way that it is a matter of perspective.

[Ettina]

If powerful evil clerics exist, surely they would be aware that being Evil is a bad idea. They have the power to visit Hell and see whether there are actual awards awaiting them.

Powerful evil clerics get the rewards, ordinary evil joes get eaten.

[YossarianLives]

Let me ask one question. Why would only a handful of souls be turned into lemures? Why would the souls be fed to other devils when each one of those souls could be another loyal servant?

It makes no sense! Why do devils even need to eat? If the archdevils supposed to be smart why would they waste perfectly good souls that could be assisting them in the blood war?

[Milo v3]

Outsiders specifically don't need to eat, so I doubt devils would lower their productivity by such a severe degree when they could shape the petitioners into more minions.

Hmm... Lemure and then a devil after a billion or so years, would actually probably be a fine afterlife. I mean, lemure are mindless so you wouldn't suffer ("sure" getting to the mindless state involves your petitioner form being tortured but that's short term pain, when your soul is literally eternal rather than being gobbled up by daemons or demons or intrinsically altered into a slaad or protean).

[Maglubiyet]

...victory in Hell is pretty damned impressive - Devils are recognizable symbols of Evil power, authority, and success.

Probably many mortals only see the flashy, powerful devils and not the endless fields of lemures. They assume they're going to be one of the big guys, like how some people think when they join the Navy they get to become a SEAL.

I'm sure the brochures for the Hells only show things like Pit Fiends with flaming whips. Your real fate will be in the fine print.

[Brookshw]

Let me ask one question. Why would only a handful of souls be turned into lemures? Why would the souls be fed to other devils when each one of those souls could be another loyal servant?

It makes no sense! Why do devils even need to eat? If the archdevils supposed to be smart why would they waste perfectly good souls that could be assisting them in the blood war?

Iirc a portion are used to power various evil mechanations/rituals/etc, the value of the soul as an energy supply outweighs the benefit offered by yet another schmuck, especially when the supply of schmucks and rubes is in such ready supply. Checkout Guide to Hell, Faces of Evil and Unbound if you want further info on the numbers, 3e content is a bit short on the topic and I have no idea about later editions.

[Karl Aegis]

Even the lowly lemure is pretty high in the hierarchy of Baator. One of them could still rip apart most of the other denizens of Hell pretty easily. You could be a fiendish kobold commoner who works in the mines all day or a fiendish dire rat at the beck and call of first level wizards. Having actual damage reduction makes you far superior to a random fiendish humanoid race even if you don't have a mind to enjoy your superiority.

[hamishspence]

Hierarchy isn't a matter of power - but orders - who gives orders, and who takes them.

A lemure is less intelligent even than a fiendish animal - it cannot give orders.

I can just imagine a fiendish rat directing a small squad of lemures.

[Orderic]

From what I have read, souls are not devoured in hell. They are merely tortured.

Tortured, to extract all of the energy within the soul, to give power to other devils while slowly stripping away all that makes the soul a person, until there are no memories, no personality, nothing. Nothing, except for an empty shell, corrupted by hellish powers and turned into a devil itself. A lemure, to be precise.

So sure, you will be a lemure if you go to hell. You will have a chance, to eventually prove your worth and advance, if you are succesfull enough. Of course, that will not be you. You have been destroyed by all of the torture.

[hamishspence]

In Fiendish Codex 2 and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) it's mentioned that it's possible for really exceptional souls to get (or bargain for) automatic promotion to something other than a lemure - though it should be rare.

[Anonymouswizard]

In my ex-D&D (now GURPS) setting, hell doesn't torture you don't get tortured for being too evil in hell, but not evil enough. About 0.1% are the right kind of evil for hell, and so shuttled off to a remote department for 100 years, given a desk job and allowed to learn the system and mature into a devil. A few eventually work their way up to chief of immigration or the like before their term is up. After the ~100 years they are a unique devil, and allowed back into the main hierarchy to play the game, at least one archdevil got his start this way.

1% to 10% are determined as needing help, and are so transformed into mindless drones, but are then allowed to mature and regain their memories, and climb the ladder if they survive.

The rest are either tortured for energy, sent off to fight the blood war, or suck into a gem to become a demon's personal soul battery. In the rare case that they remain sane long enough to become a devil, they are made 'commanders in the blood war' who have to survive and prove their worth before they can think of being excepted.