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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    A Sorcerer king can be a combat master, spy, leader, bluffer at the same time

    Finally.
    Level 20 character.

    The opitimized sorcerer is much better than Wizard.

    Combat Scenarious

    -Sorcerer have exclusive powerful spells, Sorcerer Only or It is useful only to sorcerer

    Arcane fusion and Greater Arcane fusion:
    The best spell offensive and versatility spell.
    You attack has no defense.

    Arcane Spellsurge:
    Sorcerer can abuse with it. Better action than Wizard.

    Wings of Cover
    Its can be a really amazing defensive spells! it can be shared by your allys. level 2 spell.
    "Trick", your familiar can share wings of cover with you.

    Wings of Flurry
    Unlimited damage, area spell, force damage and still can be dazed

    Ruin Delver's Fortune
    Char for all saves. It can be persisted. Evasion, hp and other buff.

    Primal Instinct
    Iniciative wins



    Charisma Synergy
    Marshal auras here, you lose only one caster level.
    Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks
    Sorcerer can apply charisma:
    AC
    Saves
    Iniciative (Its so crazy, you can get around +55 iniciative)
    Battlefield skills : Hide, move in silent, ride ( +60 hide check and Invisibility, superior spell)


    Best Shapechanged

    Almost all forms is CHAR based, so, you can have great versatility abilities with high CD. Useful forms:
    Deathshierker
    Astralwalker
    Shadesteel golem ( It can beat easily a caster ) (hide abuse)
    Elemental Weirdy
    Rakshasas.


    Master of Metamagic
    Spontaneous caster
    You can apply metamagic when and where you want.
    Your castime time increase when you apply metamagic. ( You think this is bad? No)
    Sorcerer can use metamagic specialist and arcane spellsurge spell trick.



    About versatility?

    Shapechange spell
    Limited wish spell
    Use magic device trick
    Knowstones and runestaves.





    Castle / Game of thrones Scenarious


    Lets go to a interpretation scenarious.
    Still the sorcerer is much better for interpretation. I will explain it.
    My sorc can use your marshal aura to a game of thrones
    scenarious.

    Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.

    So, can u imagine it?

    The sorcerer can get powerful minimum +62 bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and other social skill.

    bluff 23 base +2 synergy+2 Bloodline + 29 charisma + 6 greater heroism= Varible +62 to +81.
    If use Momento of Prescient= +25
    Varible +87 +106
    If Surge of Fortune, i can get amazing +106 social skills
    Epic bluff effect, like suggestion spell.

    Multiple faces or only a Illusion? Who.... the real?




    So, What you think I would be Your "Best Friend".

    You easily give me your spellbook and remove all buffs inside you

    Maybe, you can be fascined by epic diplomacy.

    Maybe, think i am your king.

    Maybe a Elder Titan or a Xixecal want your head.

    Maybe... You can protect my castle, creat scrolls and item to me

    Wizard after your mind affected.








    The Sorcerer King build


    Rules: 32 atribute distribuition.
    Max 3 contingency spell
    Max 3 summons.
    Max 900k gold.
    Max HP
    No Gestalt class

    Lord Drako


    Race: Silver Brown Human/White Dragonspawn: Dragon, Cold Subtipe/Magic Blood (-2 wis+2char)/ Genie, Efreeti Bloodline(Bronze Eye)

    Classe progression:

    Marshal
    Sorcerer metamagic specialist
    Sorcerer
    Sorcerer
    Sorcerer
    Tainted Sorcerer
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Incantatar
    Spellguard of Silverymoon
    Spellguard of Silverymoon
    Spellguard of Silverymoon


    Initial Atribute:

    STR: 8
    DEX: 18
    CON: 12
    INT: 17
    WIS: 8
    CHR: 18

    After Race Atribute/wishes/level increase/magic-blood/Genie, Efreeti Bloodline

    FOR: 11
    DEX: 26
    CON: 18
    INT: 22
    WIS: 10
    CHAR: 31

    After Buffs:

    FOR: 16
    DEX: 38
    CON: 28 -4 TAINTED=24
    INT: 24
    WIS: 17 -4 TAINTED=13
    CHAR: 55 < 68 with Power Leech

    HP : 273 HP
    AC: 86 AC Touch AC: 65 AC
    10 + 6 Armory (Greater,mage armor) + 4 shield (Arcane Shield) + 14 DEX +9 Natural Armor+2 Natural Armor(BloodLine)+1(Dodge Feat) +29 deflection+11 untype buff.
    60Ft fly

    Iniciative: +62
    +14 DEX + 29 CHAR + 14 itens +5 Primal instinct

    Saves: Applying Ruins Delver's spells:

    Fort: +56
    Reflex: +59
    Will: +59

    Saves: with Nimph or Astral Stalker form.

    Fort: +85
    Reflex: +88
    Will: +88

    BBA +21 / Ranged BBA +31

    Weapon: Rod of Absorvition / Axe Throl Vorpal +1

    Skills:
    Hide +70
    Move in Silent +55
    Bluff +62
    Diplomacy +62
    Gather Information +57
    Disguise +67 ( using with shapechange and mundane cloth)
    Spellscraft +31
    Use magic device +31
    Ride +43

    Feat:
    Improved Initiative(Bloodline) (Psychic Reformation< Assume Special Ability< Hide in plan)
    Maximize Spell
    Extend Spell
    Transdimension Spell
    Heightain Spell
    Iron Will
    Persistend Spell
    Practical Metamagic-Maximize Spell
    Twin Spell
    Arcane Thesis - Orb of Force
    Practical Metamagic-Twin Spell
    Craft Contingent Spell
    Combat Casting
    Arcane Thesis- Greater Arcane Fusion
    Daley Spell
    Easy Metamagic-Twin Spell
    Flaw 1: Arcane Thesis - Hail of Stone
    Flaw 2: Practical Metamagic - Heightein Spell

    Agressive +2 iniciative/-1AC


    Special Quality:

    Summon Familiar
    Motivate Dexterity
    Wings
    Tainted Metamagic
    Tainted Spellcasting
    Metamagic Effect
    Instant Metamagic
    Snatch Spell
    Improve Metamagic
    Selective Spell ( Spellguard of Silverymoon )
    Seize Concentration

    Permant Spell:
    Arcane Sight, Truee Seeing, Haste Persisted, Ruin Delver's forutine Persisted

    Tricks:
    Limited Wish for > Psychick Reformation
    Limited Wish for > Favor of the Martyr
    Limited Wish for> Surge of Fortune
    Limited wish for> Powerleech = +21 charisma

    Antimagic Field trick:
    Antimagic Field >Widen spell ( rod ) > Persist Spell > Remove Dragon, Cold Subtipe of arena effect( Selective Spell from Spellguard of Silverymoon )

    Surge of Fortune + Vorpal Weapon= Confirm crit. Yeah my familiar can beat you inside my greater arcane fusion.

    Vorpal Combo:
    Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion x2= Twinned Maximized empowered orb of force / Snake's Swifness,mass
    Snakes, amazing extra ection = insta kill.

    Greater Arcane fusion combo
    Mix many metamagic spells for different effects.

    Imbue spell like in familiar trick

    You can share powerfull spells inside your familiar. Like Wings of cover, Arcane Fusion, Ray of Dizzless, SolidFOG.



    Persisting Magic:
    CD for metamagic effect
    18x(3x level of the magic adjusted with metamagic)
    Persist spell increase 6 slots, but, with incantator, decrease for 6-1=5
    CD max for persist magic level 9 incantator skill metamagic effect
    18+(3x14)=60;

    getting CD
    22 rank of spellcraft+ 6 int+ 2 sinergy= 30 spellcraft
    30 spellcraft + scroll moment of prescience+ heroism, great
    30 + 20 +6= +56 spellcraft bonus

    1d20+54 spellcraft, i can choose 10 on dice, because i didnt in battle or dangerous ocasion
    Total= +66 spellcraft, ready, persisted all magics.


    Spells:
    1: True Strike, True Casting, Hail of storm, Magic missile, Neverskitter, Arcane Shield (persisted).
    2: Combust, Wings of Cover, Mirror Image, Gust of wind, Wraithstrike, Creat a great tatoo
    3: Alter Fortune, Battlefield Perception, Snakes Swiftness,mass, haste (Persisted), light day, Nauseating breath
    4: Celerity, Wings of Flurry, Ray of Deflection(Persisted), Orb of Force, Ruin Delver's fortune (Persisted), SolidFog.
    5: Arcane Fusion, Shadow Form, Power Leech, greater dimension door, blink, great(Persisted)
    6; Greater Dispel, Antimagic Field(Persisted+widen), Contingency
    7: Arcane Spellsurge (persisted), limited wish, IronGuard(Persisted), Project Image
    8: Greater Arcane Fusion, Moment of Prescient, Mistic Shield (persisted), invisibility, superior (persisted)
    9: Stop Time, Mage Disjunction, Shapechange (persisted), Foresight (persisted)(Drake Helm), Ice Assassin(Drake Helm), Hide Life(Scroll), Imprison(Drake Helm)


    Buffs UP
    New buffs for challengers. New "trick"

    Contingency condition:
    New contigencys for duel

    KnowStones, Runestaves, Influence, Shapechange, Limited wish, Use magic device for a BIG versatility.







    Battlefield Tatics:
    New Battle Attack





    Items:

    Following.


    THIS BUILD IS THE MAXIMIUM POWER, i dont need use it full time.


    I AM STILL DONT FINISH, Still translating



    MY OPTIMIZED SORCERER BUILD SPACE HERE : I will translate it. Sorry my english is BAD.
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-15 at 10:22 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Bad Wolf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Wizards would have saw the threat coming five centuries before you were born. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven777 View Post
    Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.
    Quote Originally Posted by foobar1969 View Post
    Flexibility is awesome, but I'd sacrifice that spellbook in a heartbeat to be a 24-7 flying hentai apocalypse demon.


    First Eternal foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post
    Wizards would have saw the threat coming five centuries before you were born. :P
    Sorry about it, but Sorcerers come first than Wizards.

    Sorcerer is the magic.

    Wizard need study first.

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    Occasional Sage's Avatar

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    You might find this thread to be an interesting read.
    Avatar by the incomparable araveugnitsuga!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    I'm sorry, but this feels like a troll. I'll indulge you regardless.

    Regarding sorcerer-only spells, they're not exactly sorcerer-exclusive. Arcane Disciple (Spell Domain) grants access to Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, and Limited Wish, which all allow for spell replication.

    Charisma Synergy
    Marshal auras here, you lose only one caster level.
    Sorcerer can apply charisma:
    AC
    Saves
    Iniciative (Its so crazy, you can get around +55 iniciative)
    Battlefield skills : Hide, move in silent, ride ( +60 hide check and Invisibility, superior spell)
    Marshal 1/Sorcerer 15 will lose to a similarly-optimized Wizard 16 every time. Marshal 1/Sorcerer 15 will also lose to Sorcerer 16 every time. It's a bit more even at levels 19 and 20, but the loss of a caster level is bigger than you seem to realize.
    Without you explaining how you get Cha to AC/saves/Initiative/hide/move silently/ride while not losing a caster level, I'm not going to believe you.

    Shapechange is equally broken for any caster.

    Spontaneous caster
    You can apply metamagic when and where you want.
    This doesn't necessarily make them more powerful. A sufficiently well-prepared Wizard (namely, one who has used divinations to determine every threat they will ever face, ever) will have the metamagic they need on the spells they need it on.

    Shapechange spell
    Limited wish spell
    Wizards can use both of these, and have more skill points from being Int-based.
    Use magic device trick
    I'm not familiar with this. Please explain.

    Regarding the final scenario: if this is PvP, you can't really use your social skills. Players are explicitly immune to Diplomacy. Even if you convinced a level 20 wizard that you were his friend, he almost certainly wouldn't hand over his spellbook and dispel his protections, and would even more certainly have backup copies. Friend =/= slave. And the Bluff suggestion only lasts 10 minutes anyways.

    Regardless of all this, however, a Wizard's superiority comes from versatility. For example, a sorcerer probably doesn't have room in their Spells Known for Ice Assassin or Genesis, two absurdly powerful spells with high XP costs and no direct combat uses. However, a wizard definitely has room for them in their spellbook. So a wizard can enter their fast-time plane via time shift, spend a few days (or weeks, or centuries) using double thought bottles to make an army of Ice Assassins of Ice Assassins of himself, and plane shift back with all of them in tow, with only a round on the material plane having passed. Sorcerers can't do that without giving up two of their precious ninth-level spells known, but for a wizard there is no real opportunity cost.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-07 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    Sorry about it, but Sorcerers come first than Wizards.

    Sorcerer is the magic.

    Wizard need study first.
    Yes, but a wizard born before your character would have enough divinations to know every last detail about upcoming threats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven777 View Post
    Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.
    Quote Originally Posted by foobar1969 View Post
    Flexibility is awesome, but I'd sacrifice that spellbook in a heartbeat to be a 24-7 flying hentai apocalypse demon.


    First Eternal foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post
    Yes, but a wizard born before your character would have enough divinations to know every last detail about upcoming threats.
    Also, to go down this rabbit hole (which I really shouldn't do), there's the spell Teleport Through Time. It again is an absurdly powerful spell with a high XP cost and no combat use. However, it lets our hypothetical wizard transport himself to before any sorcerers were born, and start from there.
    Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Did someone already link the tier list? No? Here. OP, you might find this an interesting read. Also, as a practical example of all the things you've mentioned actually codified, see here.

    Edit: as a hypothetical example of how a wizard is more versatile (and thus will win more fights on average than the sorcerer), I would like you to try and build a spell list for the sorcerer. The wizard's initial list doesn't matter, except that we'll assume that they have contingency, celerity, time stop, mind blank, and a few teleports on hand. I'd say those are all pretty standard fare for your generic wiz list. Now, attempt to kill that wizard with the same sorc list, only the next day (or even just 15 minutes later if the wiz fills their unfilled slots) when the wizard has changed out their list to deal with the sorcerer's list.
    Last edited by GilesTheCleric; 2015-05-07 at 11:19 PM.

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    I do still exist. I'm active on discord. Priestess of Neptune#8648

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Sorcerer has crazy brute force and enough powerful spells to effectively steamroll most encounters, but levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 and 17 are just embarrassing.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    All depends on if the wizard is expecting the sorcerer to attack him. If not, sorcerer wins hands down. If the wizard does, the wizard wins. That is what every sorcerer vs wizard fight comes down to. Sorcerer has the absolute raw number of casts, but the wizard has more options at their disposal.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    I'm sorry, but this feels like a troll. I'll indulge you regardless.

    Regarding sorcerer-only spells, they're not exactly sorcerer-exclusive. Arcane Disciple (Spell Domain) grants access to Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, and Limited Wish, which all allow for spell replication.

    I am not a troll, anyspell or greater anyspell you need have an arcane magical writing. Fail.

    Marshal 1/Sorcerer 15 will lose to a similarly-optimized Wizard 16 every time. Marshal 1/Sorcerer 15 will also lose to Sorcerer 16 every time. It's a bit more even at levels 19 and 20, but the loss of a caster level is bigger than you seem to realize.
    Without you explaining how you get Cha to AC/saves/Initiative/hide/move silently/ride while not losing a caster level, I'm not going to believe you.

    The Sorcerer get effective caster level with template.Bypassing it.
    If your are combat focused.
    Marshal aura:
    Motivate Dexterity:
    Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks

    AC incorporal form or sirine grace spell
    Saves, i can apply 2 x charisma = Ruins Delver's Spell persisted (Incantatrix) + (Shapechange Nimph or Deathshieker)




    Shapechange is equally broken for any caster.
    No, Sorcerer is better because the all forms use Char, its a BIG advantage


    This doesn't necessarily make them more powerful. A sufficiently well-prepared Wizard (namely, one who has used divinations to determine every threat they will ever face, ever) will have the metamagic they need on the spells they need it on.


    Wizards can use both of these, and have more skill points from being Int-based.

    I'm not familiar with this. Please explain.

    Regarding the final scenario: if this is PvP, you can't really use your social skills. Players are explicitly immune to Diplomacy. Even if you convinced a level 20 wizard that you were his friend, he almost certainly wouldn't hand over his spellbook and dispel his protections, and would even more certainly have backup copies. Friend =/= slave. And the Bluff suggestion only lasts 10 minutes anyways.
    No? really? +114 bluff or diplomacy! Wizard is fools.
    You think i am your GOD.


    Regardless of all this, however, a Wizard's superiority comes from versatility. For example, a sorcerer probably doesn't have room in their Spells Known for Ice Assassin or Genesis, two absurdly powerful spells with high XP costs and no direct combat uses. However, a wizard definitely has room for them in their spellbook. So a wizard can enter their fast-time plane via time shift, spend a few days (or weeks, or centuries) using double thought bottles to make an army of Ice Assassins of Ice Assassins of himself, and plane shift back with all of them in tow, with only a round on the material plane having passed. Sorcerers can't do that without giving up two of their precious ninth-level spells known, but for a wizard there is no real opportunity cost.
    DrakeHelm wins, My sorcerer use Ice Assassins.
    My sorcerer easily can use your influence to get scrolls and items.
    Your wizard need know if i am a thread and find me, my sorcerer is unfindable.




    I will translate my build today.
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-07 at 11:57 PM.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auron3991 View Post
    All depends on if the wizard is expecting the sorcerer to attack him. If not, sorcerer wins hands down. If the wizard does, the wizard wins. That is what every sorcerer vs wizard fight comes down to. Sorcerer has the absolute raw number of casts, but the wizard has more options at their disposal.
    No, sorcerer can beat a wizard easy a direct fight.
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-07 at 11:57 PM.

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    Yael's Avatar

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auron3991 View Post
    All depends on if the wizard is expecting the sorcerer to attack him. If not, sorcerer wins hands down. If the wizard does, the wizard wins. That is what every sorcerer vs wizard fight comes down to. Sorcerer has the absolute raw number of casts, but the wizard has more options at their disposal.
    This applies to any class then, you did not expect the rogue? Dead. Of course, assuming that the rogue has its poison to overkill the Wizwiz's Con, or even a fighter, killing-charging against Wizzy McGuire. I still think Wizz owns Sorcy at every level except 20, and even at 20, Wiz has more options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    From combat
    Superior Invisilibity spell
    +60 Hide check
    +55 iniciative
    Nondetection
    Mind Blank
    True Seeing
    Arcane Sight


    Out combat. I can easily confuse your mind and yours friends, they never will know i am a thread, he is intelligent, but low perceptions.
    Diplomacy
    Bluff
    Disguise

    What did you think what can I do with 10 Minutes suggestion ?


    Incantatrix metamagic abuse + greater arcane fusion= It has no defense, i can mix 15 spells per round.
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-08 at 12:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    From combat
    Superior Invisilibity spell
    +60 Hide check
    +55 iniciative
    Nondetection
    Mind Blank
    None of that seems to do much against something like mindsight, which is a relatively common maneuver for wizards. Your divination protections definitely don't protect from everything either. I'm pretty sure contact other plane gets around that sort of thing, for example. Primal instinct isn't all that great for sorcerers, by the way, because it eats into spells known. You're necessarily casting it only once per day, which is a problem. Actual initiative isn't all that important at that level either, as it tends to be obviated by various means.


    Out combat. I can easily confuse your mind, they never will know i am a thread, he is intelligent, but low perceptions.
    Wizards have low scores in perception stats, in general, but that doesn't mean they have poor perception.

    Diplomacy
    Bluff
    Disguise
    As was noted, these don't do all that much against a PC, and much less than that against a wizard.

    Incantatrix metamagic abuse + greater arcane fusion= It has no defense.
    The spell you use with it does generally have a defense, with the particulars depending on what you're mass casting. Even a searing spell orb of fire can be defended against.

    The real issue with sorcerers in this comparison is that any plan that relies on particular spells eats away at the sorcerers ability to use other plans. If you want to stop a particular kind of divination, then that means dropping a different defense, or the ability to use that particular kind of divination. If you want to boost initiative, it comes at a high cost. Wizards, by contrast, especially at high levels, have all the plans. It's a bit academic at 20, however, as everything is just consumed by the all powerful force that is shape change. At that level, the two classes probably trend towards equal.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    When you post your build, tell me. I can probably knock together an IoSV that can kill him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven777 View Post
    Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.
    Quote Originally Posted by foobar1969 View Post
    Flexibility is awesome, but I'd sacrifice that spellbook in a heartbeat to be a 24-7 flying hentai apocalypse demon.


    First Eternal foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    First, before I start. DON'T PUT YOUR OWN THOUGHTS INSIDE QUOTE BOXES. Do what I did, and make a new quote box for each point you are responding to. You are making it impossible to understand your posts. Have you even used an internet forum before?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    I will translate my build today.
    Oh, can't wait to tear this one apart.

    anyspell or greater anyspell you need have an arcane magical writing
    And sorcerers can scribe scrolls, which means you can get an Anyspell'd Wings of Cover if you have a scroll of Wings of Cover.

    The Sorcerer get effective caster level with template.Bypassing it.
    The issue is not caster level; it is the spell levels that you have available, and (once ninths are acquired by both builds) the number of spells per day you have.

    As an aside, please do not write in light blue; it is very difficult to read. Also, you are very much not supposed to write in red; that color is reserved for forum moderators and administrators.

    No? really? +114 bluff or diplomacy! Wizard is fools.
    You think i am your GOD.
    Okay, you have convinced the Wizard that you are a manifestation of their deity of choice. They still won't end up your permanent slave. Again, the suggestion implanted via a successful Bluff check ONLY LASTS FOR TEN MINUTES. Even if you got them to hand over their spellbooks and dismiss what buffs they can dismiss (because not all spells can be dismissed), they'd still have their backup spells and whatever contingent spells they have taken the time to craft.

    If you're trying Diplomacy, that skill can't be used on player characters. And if the wizard is an NPC: even if you manage to change their attitude to Fanatic ("Will give life to serve you"), they probably still won't relinquish all of their personal power, because it removes their ability to defend/serve you to the fullest of their abilities. Even fanatic attitude doesn't make them your slave. Only a successful Dominate Person or equivalent long-term compulsion will do that, and any self-respecting wizard will have permanent mind-affecting immunity of some sort or another.

    My sorcerer use Ice Assassins.
    Yes, but you have to trade something away for that ability (one of your ninth-level slots) while a wizard only needs to have it in their spellbook.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-08 at 12:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    OP, I think your arguments might be better received if we're able to have more of a dialogue, a back-and-forth about the merits and deficiencies of each class.

    I'm also a little confused as to why your very first post to this forum is a strongly-opinionated one. Let us get to know you and your skill in the game a little bit before making very bold claims, and your ethos (authority) will be stronger.

    Aside from those comments, I'm probably done with this thread; I think I've contributed everything that I can without starting to repeat myself.

    Edit: And as Extra Anchovies has said, let's all try to follow the forum rules. OP, if you haven't already looked at them, it's worthwhile. The rules here are different to many other forums.
    Last edited by GilesTheCleric; 2015-05-08 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post
    When you post your build, tell me. I can probably knock together an IoSV that can kill him.
    Yeah, i know it, because my spell selection have gust wind and light day!
    Better, i can use it inside Greater Arcane Fusion, they dont is a thread. =)
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-08 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    First, before I start. DON'T PUT YOUR OWN THOUGHTS INSIDE QUOTE BOXES. Do what I did, and make a new quote box for each point you are responding to. You are making it impossible to understand your posts. Have you even used an internet forum before?



    Oh, can't wait to tear this one apart.


    And sorcerers can scribe scrolls, which means you can get an Anyspell'd Wings of Cover if you have a scroll of Wings of Cover.


    The issue is not caster level; it is the spell levels that you have available, and (once ninths are acquired by both builds) the number of spells per day you have.

    As an aside, please do not write in light blue; it is very difficult to read. Also, you are very much not supposed to write in red; that color is reserved for forum moderators and administrators.



    Okay, you have convinced the Wizard that you are a manifestation of their deity of choice. They still won't end up your permanent slave. Again, the suggestion implanted via a successful Bluff check ONLY LASTS FOR TEN MINUTES. Even if you got them to hand over their spellbooks and dismiss what buffs they can dismiss (because not all spells can be dismissed), they'd still have their backup spells and whatever contingent spells they have taken the time to craft.

    If you're trying Diplomacy, that skill can't be used on player characters. And if the wizard is an NPC: even if you manage to change their attitude to Fanatic ("Will give life to serve you"), they probably still won't relinquish all of their personal power, because it removes their ability to defend/serve you to the fullest of their abilities. Even fanatic attitude doesn't make them your slave. Only a successful Dominate Person or equivalent long-term compulsion will do that, and any self-respecting wizard will have permanent mind-affecting immunity of some sort or another.



    Yes, but you have to trade something away for that ability (one of your ninth-level slots) while a wizard only needs to have it in their spellbook.
    Whats CRAZY sorcerer will take a scribe scroll feat?? Sorcerer dont is a academic player!
    My sorcerer can easily find your academy ( Gater information ), Convince your master, you are a traitor.
    I still use suggest, what do you think i can do with you in 100 rounds?
    But, i dont need kill wizards NPC, they can creat itens, scrolls and protect my castle. Wizard alread have a job.

    " Go to antimagic field, it will heal and fortify you! "
    Its cool.


    Sorry about color rules. =)
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-08 at 12:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Are Tests of Spites still allowed? I'd like to see how this turns out. You do realize that Schrodinger's wizard can actually be built, right? It's neither a myth nor a punchline, WOTC actually managed to have these nerd magicians actually do it.p

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    Whats CRAZY sorcerer will take a scribe scroll feat?? Sorcerer dont is a academic player!
    Maybe yours aren't. Sorcerers can still take item creation feats, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    My sorcerer can easily find your academy ( Gater information ), Convince your master, you are a traitor.
    And then the master will ask "how?" and you will not have any evidence to convince this guildmaster that a level 20 wizard is in fact working against the interests of a wizard guild. Even if they thing you're a friend or the manifestation of a deity or whatever, they'll still want to know how/why the wizard is a traitor. Assuming, of course, that the level 20 wizard isn't also the guildmaster, which they probably are.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    I still use suggest, what do you think i can do with you in 100 rounds?
    One minute is ten rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    " Go to antimagic field, it will heal and fortify you! "
    Its cool.
    That suppresses their buffs for the duration. Now what. Send someone in to kill them? The wizard will still try to defend themselves if threatened, and that would involve leaving the antimagic field.

    If you use epic diplomacy to convince them to stay in the area and let someone else kill them, they'd do it; however, that's not sorcerers being stronger than wizards, it's epic skills being unbalanced and poorly defined. Diplomacy-abuse is not a sorcerer-specific ability, nor is it an indicator of the sorcerer's power as a class. It's indicative of Diplomacy's power as a skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako View Post
    Sorry about color rules. =)
    That's fine. I second the suggestion (heh) to read the forum rules.
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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Maybe yours aren't. Sorcerers can still take item creation feats, though.



    And then the master will ask "how?" and you will not have any evidence to convince this guildmaster that a level 20 wizard is in fact working against the interests of a wizard guild. Even if they thing you're a friend or the manifestation of a deity or whatever, they'll still want to know how/why the wizard is a traitor. Assuming, of course, that the level 20 wizard isn't also the guildmaster, which they probably are.



    One minute is ten rounds.



    That suppresses their buffs for the duration. Now what. Send someone in to kill them? The wizard will still try to defend themselves if threatened, and that would involve leaving the antimagic field.

    If you use epic diplomacy to convince them to stay in the area and let someone else kill them, they'd do it; however, that's not sorcerers being stronger than wizards, it's epic skills being unbalanced and poorly defined. Diplomacy-abuse is not a sorcerer-specific ability, nor is it an indicator of the sorcerer's power as a class. It's indicative of Diplomacy's power as a skill.



    That's fine. I second the suggestion (heh) to read the forum rules.
    My friend... i can gather all information about you, disguise, bluffs, diplomacy can change your mind to kill he want your head.
    Yeah, fanatic is powerful! Sorcerer + Arcane optimization buffs+ diplomacy= Wins.
    Inside antimagic field?? Imagine
    15 twinned maximized empowered orb of force( Greater Arcane Fusion ) against you inside antimagic field? (Surprise action) (Prepared Action)
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-08 at 12:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB 71
    DIPLOMACY... Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has more information on influencing NPCs.) In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.
    I'll just leave this here, then sit back with some popcorn that I conveniently popped just a few minutes ago.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric View Post
    I'll just leave this here, then sit back with some popcorn that I conveniently popped just a few minutes ago.
    Yeah! But with diplomacy per exemple. I can change the mind of king or your guild master want your head, or a Elder Titan per exemple.
    To kill or confuse player mind... Bluff, Disguise

    This Optimized Sorcerer is Loki(Bluff, Diplomacy, Illusions, Disguise, hide) + Hulk (Combat Master)
    I can beat a Wizard without cast any spell.
    Last edited by LordDrako; 2015-05-08 at 01:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Why did I respond? This is getting in the way of my popcorn-eating. I'll leave it to others to explain how none of those things are threats, and also to re-state why skill checks don't matter and how wizards have all of those same things.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrako;
    all the words



    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I like that you can predict the future. Why, you must be some sort of wizard.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    The greatest advantage a Wizard has goes out the window when you consider the Ancestral Relic Runestaff trick. With the added benefit of being able to change what spells it gives you at a moment's notice if you have Incense of Consecration, a given Wizard would have to adopt this same trick just to keep up. Wizards can wait until the next morning to prepare all the right spells to handle a given situation, the Sorcerer can gain access to all those spells right now.

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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    Until the time comes when you actually present a build, nobody is going to believe that your sorcerer can kick a wizard's butt in a fight. My suggestion is that you and someone else PM your respective builds to a third party (so that there can be no accusations of builds being tailored to defeat your opponent's specific build). At that point, the two builds could go head to head in a PBP game setting fight.

    Or, if you prefer, you can just keep shouting about how much more awesome sorcerers are than wizards. But nobody will believe you.


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    Default Re: Who is better, Optimized Wizard or Optimized Sorcerer? Yes, Sorcerer is a GOD.

    A TO batman wizard doesn't need homebrewed runestaff shenanigans because he can have his entire spell list prepared. Additionally XP-free Spell Engine is a RAW thing that pretty much does what the homebrewed runestaff does. Furthermore, Wizards can be as spontaneous as sorcerers with the right feats.

    TL;DR: A TO batman wizard can be a better sorcerer than a sorcerer.

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