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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    furious There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    OK,

    As a gamer of nearly 25 years, I have grown up with the Dragon magazine and the Dungeon Magazine. I have seen it grow (both for the better and for the worse), and recently, seen it prosper under Paizo...

    And now this Paizo is announcing WotC has revoked the license to publish these cornerstones of the D&D franchise. (see letter from the publisher here -- www.paizo.com )

    Wizards of the Coast? Wankers of the Century? You decide. (I've personally had enough of them). Bass turds

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    So if I understand the letter correctly WOTC is moving to a more online format, and will be producing content that way. Because of this they are discontinuing the license with Paizo since they will be competing in similar stuff.

    Does this mean Paizo will also be producing similar content for WOTC, but not under the name Dragon and Dungeon license, perhaps? Perhaps having a hand with this new online content wotc is developing that is similar to Dragon and Dungeon? The letter says the company are in good terms and they have business arrangements in the present and will continue them in the future, but it doesn't describe how these contributions will come into effect.

    At least Paizo is creating a new magazine Pathfinder which will publish monthly 96 page adventure paths.
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Man, this sucks.
    "We are all responsible for everybody."

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Knight_Of_Twilight's Avatar

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye
    Hey, I liked actually, you know, reading a magazine. Having something to carry around was cool.

    If I think it sucks, doesn't make me a "fanboi". I'm not writing e-mails to WOTC about it.
    "We are all responsible for everybody."

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    KoT, I believe Theo was referring to people resorting to name calling and whining. You've done neither, so you're good.

    Second, I would like to remind you guys that simply breaking down into flaming each other will not change the situation or help your arguement. No need to bring the mods down upon us.

    Finally, I understand why WotC has decided to switch to an online venue. It gives them more control AND another method to make money. Before the angry "How dare they make money!" speeches come out, please be aware the WotC is a business, and there are only so many supplements, models, and books they can publish/make before they fall behind with their current schedule. The gaming industry is not exactly an easy industry to make money in, unless you can create a variety of content constantly. A web-zine might be what they need to supplement their income.

    This isn't to say I won't miss the magazines. I wish they could stick around. However, WotC is just doing what they feel will best continue their business.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye
    Kthx for the personal attack...certainly nothing but the highroad for you.

    As for WOTC putting it online and publishing it themselves, we've *seen* what they've done with these Magazines in the past. As a matter of fact, they became so horrid, I stopped my subscription then.

    Sorry, but Paizo has done a stand up job bringing the Dragon/Dungeon Magazines out of the toilet WotC flushed them down.

    As I stated above, this is just another in the string of missteps WotC has flung our way. I'm sick of it.

    Now as for whining, I'd prefer to use the word venting. After all, this has been a cornerstone of *my* gaming habit for some time. You'd expect some sense of disillusionment, I would hope. Honestly, this came as quite a shock.

    Namecalling? Well, sure, I "resorted" to renaming WotC, but like I said before, venting a bit. I *certainly* am not leveling any direct insults at anyone.

    I am a businessman myself, so I completely understand *most* of WotC has done to generate their income, and without being able to see their business plan for their "online" publications, I can only speculate that it not the brightest of ideas. Making content available both offline and online, sure. Online only? Not my style (and missing the opportunity for additional income).

    In brief, a shame these two magazines had to end so abruptly...
    Last edited by Maelstrom; 2007-04-19 at 03:03 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    As I stated above, this is just another in the string of missteps WotC has flung our way. I'm sick of it.
    Well, you could always sell your books, and go into WoW RPG, or Warhammer40k. Great form of protest, imo.

    If there were enough gamers around to try those out where I live (and starting, like, tomorrow, since I'm moving at the end of summer), I'd be happy to try them out myself.

    I never got that much out of the magazines... to be honest, I wasn't sure how they were making $, considering the few people I know who use them.
    Last edited by jameswilliamogle; 2007-04-19 at 02:59 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    In a positive light, Paizo's new offering "Pahfinder" seems promising...it will be available both offline *and* online... Maybe a bit on the pricey side, but we shall see

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    While sad, I can understand why they wanted to end it I'm still not sure how much I'm interested in their online stuff if it costs money, but I see why they're doing it.
    None of us have tampered with the fundemental natural order when bored. That would be wrong.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Well, damn. I'm going to have to find something else to read on the bus, it seems...
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Well, this explains why I haven't been contacted about my submissions.

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    WotC is owned by Hasbro, and has been since 1999. I'm surprised they haven't come up with the Mr. Drizzt Do'Urden Potato Head.

    WotC probably gets a small % of every Dragon and Dungeon Magazine sold, plus some licencing fee. I could easily see how they could make more money by publishing similar content online and selling ad space. And while I will miss Dragon, I'm looking forward to an online database of hundreds of more classes/feats/modules/etc. Hopefully, WotC will make enough money off of it that they expand their online presence even further, thus leading to more content for us gamers.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Kthx for the personal attack...certainly nothing but the highroad for you.

    As for WOTC putting it online and publishing it themselves, we've *seen* what they've done with these Magazines in the past. As a matter of fact, they became so horrid, I stopped my subscription then.

    Sorry, but Paizo has done a stand up job bringing the Dragon/Dungeon Magazines out of the toilet WotC flushed them down.

    As I stated above, this is just another in the string of missteps WotC has flung our way. I'm sick of it.

    Now as for whining, I'd prefer to use the word venting. After all, this has been a cornerstone of *my* gaming habit for some time. You'd expect some sense of disillusionment, I would hope. Honestly, this came as quite a shock.

    Namecalling? Well, sure, I "resorted" to renaming WotC, but like I said before, venting a bit. I *certainly* am not leveling any direct insults at anyone.

    I am a businessman myself, so I completely understand *most* of WotC has done to generate their income, and without being able to see their business plan for their "online" publications, I can only speculate that it not the brightest of ideas. Making content available both offline and online, sure. Online only? Not my style (and missing the opportunity for additional income).

    In brief, a shame these two magazines had to end so abruptly...
    First, saying that you're "Venting" doesn't make it any better, or less abraisive.

    Second, after reading the press release on Paizo I don't see what the problem is, according to them, it's a move to a new format, nothing more. If it turns out later that it's a huge problem that's destroyed both magazine, maybe then you have license to start flinging around words like "evil"

    Third, did you miss the part about Pathfinder?
    The same people will still be publishing, I don't see what exactly you're losing except the traditional name.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    First, saying that you're "Venting" doesn't make it any better, or less abraisive.
    Thank you for your opinion
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    Third, did you miss the part about Pathfinder?
    The same people will still be publishing, I don't see what exactly you're losing except the traditional name.
    Did you miss my post on Pathfinder?
    Last edited by Maelstrom; 2007-04-19 at 10:50 PM.

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    I will dearly miss Dragon, i've only had it for a year

    On the other hand, will the online version be free and they just sell add space? or do you have to pay to see the stuff?
    I would imagine they could make more money by having both online and off line, as Dragon doesn't cost them much.
    While i do feel betrayed, it is a company after all
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  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Ya know, I think I've realized one of the things that will hit the hardest... The loss of GreyHawk. It's the setting I learned to play in, have played the most in, and have come to think of as "home" for my gaming. I am certainly looking forward to see what Paizo does with their new offerings, but it will not be GreyHawk...

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    I guess I'm just nostalgic. I makes perfect sense for WOTC to pull the plug, but I love the magazine, I really do. I've read it on and off since I was a lad of 10, so I'm attached.
    "We are all responsible for everybody."

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Did you miss my post on Pathfinder?
    Yes I did, I apologize. It was refreshingly optimistic.
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  20. - Top - End - #20
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    I have sent to following letter to Wizards of the Coast, both electronically and (Soon) via snail mail. I am also reposting it on every gaming forum to which I belong.

    To whom it may concern:

    I was bewildered when I noted that Dungeon and Dragon magazines were being discontinued. At first I hoped that it was an April Fools joke that was misposted. Unfortunately, we know that is not the case.

    I just wanted to let WotC know how disappointed I am. Had Wizards merely moved the publication back 'in-house', I would have understood. But I cannot imagine how the decision was reached to terminate a piece of gaming history. This will have fundamentally altered the Hobby.

    I realize that Wizards is a corporate entity that has to make a profit. I also understand that D&D is Wizards' IP and as a result Wizards had every right to take the action they have. I merely hoped that Wizards would care more about customer goodwill.

    I am not angry, merely saddened. There are a great many people who will be yelling about how they are going to boycott Wizards (and Paizo, by some people who do not truly understand what has happened.) I am also aware that, just as in Magic, the majority of these people will return and buy as much product as they ever have. Myself, I am what I call a 'gamer in exile'. I no longer actively play due to my schedule and other considerations, but I do not consider myself to have 'quit' or 'retired' from gaming. My monthly issues of Dungeon and Dragon represent my lifeline to the gamer community in a way that an Internet connection cannot: They are left on the coffee table to be perused at my leisure. Due to this lifeline, I still purchase new books from WotC on occasion, preparing for a return to the game. Without Dungeon and Dragon, I worry that I, like others, will cease to be 'gamers in exile' and become merely an 'ex-gamer'.

    As I noted, I cannot imagine what circumstances led Wizards to revoking Paizo's publication rights. Perhaps they merely wanted to reassert control over their own IP, but this would mean restoring Dungeon and Dragon as Wizards publications, not canceling them. Maybe it was a bid to reduce competition for D&D adventures, since the 'Complete' series and similar type books are tapped out until 4th edition and sales have suffered. Maybe it was just to force people to subscribe to the alluded 'online content' if they want a pre-generated campaign with a Illithid or a beholder in it.

    I wish I could say I hope that this all blows up in Wizards' collective face; that sales will plummet as people boycott, the online content fizzles, and 'gamers in exile' cease buying products, but I do not, because that would mean the end of a hobby I love.

    There is some hope, of course. Games Workshop is absolutely draconian about their intellectual property, and extortionist in their pricing, but their products still sell as well as they ever have. Their customers and devotees resent them for it, but they still worship. After all, no one else can make Warhammer, just as no one else can make D&D. And I would rather see a paranoid, controlling Wizards continue to put out quality, if overpriced, products than run the franchise into the ground trying to make money in the short run as TSR did with 2nd edition. But I would much rather see a benevolent Wizards put out quality products while being open with the community.

    In short, I hope that the end of Dungeon and Dragon does not spell the end of Dungeons and Dragons.

    Sincerely,
    Ross Byers

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    I would like to point out that magazine ventures as a whole have become entirely less profitable of late with the advent of the internet. Honestly, I'm surprised as many magazines as there are still exist today, a lot of companies (either rightly or not) have been moving away from producing magazines into something more profitable. They still intend to publish such content, they just want to make it available online, which is not at all unusual. It may be a bit disappointing, but honestly I don't generally have the money to get magazine subscriptions so I've never been able to make use of Dragon Magazine anyway. I liked it in concept, but having such content available to me online for free is something I must say I do find appealing. Also, with Pathfinder, it's not like Paizo is getting the shaft, the companies are still open to working together and they'll still have their own hand in the gaming industry.


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  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    RIP, Dragon Magazine. We shall mourn you.
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Somewhat annoying, but not that huge a deal from my perspective.

    To me, What This Really Means is that Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine are going to be consolidated into one larger periodical and renamed Pathfinder. Same eidtors, same contributors, same subject matter, with a shift in emphasis so that most of the content revolves around the current Adventure Path... which, to be honest, was what they moving toward anyway, with stuff like "Wormfood" and "Savage Tidings."

    All of the non-Adventure Path type stuff will be available online from WotC (will this be free online or seperate subscription?) I suspect it will be mostly the same people writing the material.

    The biggest impact is probably that Pathfinder will be limited to OGL material, meaning less of the most recent splat will make appearances... and we will see more splat-clone stuff with the serial numbers filed off.

    On the upside, the Paizo editorial staff will be less beholden to WotC and might be able to field some actual objective criticism of them for once.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Epiphanis View Post
    Somewhat annoying, but not that huge a deal from my perspective.

    To me, What This Really Means is that Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine are going to be consolidated into one larger periodical and renamed Pathfinder. Same eidtors, same contributors, same subject matter, with a shift in emphasis so that most of the content revolves around the current Adventure Path... which, to be honest, was what they moving toward anyway, with stuff like "Wormfood" and "Savage Tidings."

    All of the non-Adventure Path type stuff will be available online from WotC (will this be free online or seperate subscription?) I suspect it will be mostly the same people writing the material.

    The biggest impact is probably that Pathfinder will be limited to OGL material, meaning less of the most recent splat will make appearances... and we will see more splat-clone stuff with the serial numbers filed off.

    On the upside, the Paizo editorial staff will be less beholden to WotC and might be able to field some actual objective criticism of them for once.
    Dragon and Dungeon, at this current juncture, receive a large portion of their articles from readers who send them in. No idea if WotC will continue in that regard; I certainly hope so.

    As for whether it'll be free on the WotC website, I highly doubt it. WotC, if anything, is a corporation, and needs to make money to justify its existence to its parent company, Hasbro. This is a step in that direction.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    As for whether it'll be free on the WotC website, I highly doubt it. WotC, if anything, is a corporation, and needs to make money to justify its existence to its parent company, Hasbro. This is a step in that direction.
    Probably true, but there is a strong argument to be made that free online support articles boost sales of the game books, where the real money is. Basically, I see the "Dragon Magazine Online" (or however they plan to market it) as being viable as a formalized, regular expanison of the "Web Enhancements" and web page articles they do for free now anyway.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    The reason those Web Enhancements boost sales is because they're directly linked to particular books. Dungeon and Dragon are usually not, instead used as an outlet for homebrewed publications or aspects of the game that don't warrant their own book but are still interesting. Not being linked to a particular book, I'd be inclined to say that they wouldn't increase purchase that much.

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Actually, what I meant was - when the periodicals come back in full force, online - please don't go all 'ga-ga' over them after slamming them so resolutely. It's that kind of hypocracy - generally seen on gaming forums when format changes or a game is 'patched' (either video or pnp) - that ticks me off. Fire vehemently at the source, and then walk away. Consider the bridge burned, and if you do fall back in love with the product, do us a favor and keep it to yourself.

    That's what I meant. I came off harsh because I was attempting to make a point while rushed. I meant no disrespect.

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    The thing that bothers me the most is the final issue of Dragon is issue #359. It is a travesty that WotC won't allow the release of a thirtieth anniversary issue, such as #360 would have been.

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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    Strangely enough, I havent bought a single Dragon magazine since 1994...

    Not because I disliked it, or because I didnt want to pay for it.... but because it stopped being distributed into Mexico!

    Turns out that the market for foreign magazines tanked here in Mexico in the 1994 crisis and the 2 major editorial distributing houses stopped carrying a lot of the less popular, "niche" magazines. Mind you, the "niche" products that stopped being distributed here included all of Marvel Comics original products, so that you can understand the size of the editorial crisis --only the spanish translated comics (produced and printed in Mexico from the originals) survived that crisis.

    12 years later, it turns out none of the two ever tried to get the distribution deal again.

    So, whats a guy to do? I turned to the Internet for gaming materials. And I find that, if you are willing to do some digging to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    So, while I understand the frustration of many of the loyal readers of Dragon and Dungeon, I can only hope that WOTC will have some common sense and not try to charge too much for their online materials. Actually, an Ad-income-based "Dragon Magazine Online" site, linked to the Boards and their downloadable sections would be nice.

    I might be able to pay a couple of bucks for some quality adventures or supplements in .pdf, provided they are not too greedy and try to kill the golden-egg goose
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    Default Re: There's Evil, then there's WOTC

    The thirtieth anniversary issue was #344. I guess Dragon wasn't originally monthly, or went on a temporary hiatus, or something like that.
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