Why would a Wyrmling be on its own?

[DragonBaneDM]

Hey guys, I'm working on a dungeon underneath the city of Sharn for my Eberron campaign, and I wanted to have an Bronze or Brass Wyrmling be one of the encounters/diplomatic challenges within it.

My idea was that the Chamber would have either left the Wyrmling there as a test for the young dragon, to rule over the denizens of the dungeon and prepare a new base of operation for them, or maybe it's a runaway/orphan.

Either way, it shares its order's obsession with dragonmarks and would insist on keeping a dragonmarked NPC/PC with them for further investigations, even though it's not really sure what it's looking for. Should be fun watching the party try and refuse a baby dragon, who's also a perfectly balanced encounter for my low level group.

What do you guys thinks works best? What other options am I not considering? This is sort of my "introduction dragon", and I want to do it right.

[RandomNPC]

If things go diplomatically it could always "Adopt" the dragonmarked as a pet, follow them around, giving vauge directions, then when combat happens, it either helps just a tiny bit, ducks under something for safety, or fights a Rodent of unusual size while the party deals with the rest of the fight.

That'll let it keep tabs on someone without demanding they split the party.

[Maglubiyet]

Seems risky for a dragon to leave its wyrmling offspring alone amongst humanoids, like leaving your baby out in the woods with raccoons.

Egg was stolen by an adventuring party, brought to Sharn to sell, and it hatched at night in some dive tavern while the adventurers were out spending their loot. The baby dragon fled into the tunnels.
Escaped exotic pet of a petty gang leader
Freed exotic pet of a rich dilettante who didn't realize how much work those things are to clean up after
Orphaned pet of a wizard/Draconic Prophecy scholar who died of old age in his lab a few months ago

Also, I know they're both CR 3, but a Bronze wyrmling is quite a bit more powerful than a Brass.

[DragonBaneDM]

Seems risky for a dragon to leave its wyrmling offspring alone amongst humanoids, like leaving your baby out in the woods with raccoons.

Egg was stolen by an adventuring party, brought to Sharn to sell, and it hatched at night in some dive tavern while the adventurers were out spending their loot. The baby dragon fled into the tunnels.
Escaped exotic pet of a petty gang leader
Freed exotic pet of a rich dilettante who didn't realize how much work those things are to clean up after
Orphaned pet of a wizard/Draconic Prophecy scholar who died of old age in his lab a few months ago

Also, I know they're both CR 3, but a Bronze wyrmling is quite a bit more powerful than a Brass.

Going with the 5E stats, this is just for regular advice on how the wyrmling would get down there (your advice might still stand, I haven't done a side by side comparison yet). And okay, I guess it being an orphan makes the most sense, unless there was some way to safeguard the baby from afar, I doubt that even the Chamber would be risky enough to put a baby dragon on it's own.

Summing it up to bad parenting might be a little too desperate. Maybe its just watching the nest/dungeon while mother is away? Or maybe its out exploring and likes to pretend that this specific dungeon is its own personal domain?

[Ettina]

Not all dragons care for their young. If you pick one of the subtypes that abandons their eggs or abandons wyrmlings after hatching, it'll make perfect sense why a wyrmling is alone. For example, green dragon pairs typically lay multiple clutches of eggs, tending one clutch and ignoring the others.

[Hawkstar]

Seems risky for a dragon to leave its wyrmling offspring alone amongst humanoids, like leaving your baby out in the woods with raccoons.

The problem with this analogy is that human infants don't make Rambo look like a sissy the way Dragon babies do.

[Maglubiyet]

The problem with this analogy is that human infants don't make Rambo look like a sissy the way Dragon babies do.

I don't know...in 3.5 a brass dragon wyrmling has 4HD, AC 15, BAB +4, and a 1d6 breath weapon. An angry mob of commoners with crowbars led by an adept could beat one down. There are several hundred thousand commoners in Sharn and a whole host of beings with martial, psionic, and spellcasting classes. Not sure how many crowbars though.

[Tvtyrant]

In my settings Dragons leave their children with tribes of Kobolds to raise and protect them. The reason being that dragons hate taking orders from others, and privilege overlordship. It is considered insulting to tell another dragon to do something, and so raising a dragon as a child instead of a mini-dictator is taboo.

[Eloel]

I don't know...in 3.5 a brass dragon wyrmling has 4HD, AC 15, BAB +4, and a 1d6 breath weapon. An angry mob of commoners with crowbars led by an adept could beat one down. There are several hundred thousand commoners in Sharn and a whole host of beings with martial, psionic, and spellcasting classes. Not sure how many crowbars though.

Dragons can fly. Commoners can't.

[DragonBaneDM]

I don't know...in 3.5 a brass dragon wyrmling has 4HD, AC 15, BAB +4, and a 1d6 breath weapon. An angry mob of commoners with crowbars led by an adept could beat one down. There are several hundred thousand commoners in Sharn and a whole host of beings with martial, psionic, and spellcasting classes. Not sure how many crowbars though.

This is deep in the Ja'Sharaat ruins, though. Somewhere generally left alone.

[Maglubiyet]

Dragons can fly. Commoners can't.

In Sharn they can. It's built on a manifest zone to an elemental plane of air, plenty of flight magic available.

I'm not saying wyrmlings are easy pickings, but bands of humanoids make formidable foes. Any dragon parent would be remiss in its duties if it thought otherwise.

In my settings Dragons leave their children with tribes of Kobolds to raise and protect them. The reason being that dragons hate taking orders from others, and privilege overlordship. It is considered insulting to tell another dragon to do something, and so raising a dragon as a child instead of a mini-dictator is taboo.

Very cool idea!

This is deep in the Ja'Sharaat ruins, though. Somewhere generally left alone.

Fair enough. There's always the possibility of a stray goblin pack, I suppose.

[DragonBaneDM]

Fair enough. There's always the possibility of a stray goblin pack, I suppose.

Flying commoner theories aside, I figure the wyrmling would be in charge of said goblin pack.

[d13]

My question is why would a dragon be meddling with lesser races, moreso in a place like Eberron, and how did he get there without being noticed immediately xD

[cobaltstarfire]

I don't know how Eberron dragons work in particular other than not being color coded for convenience, but most D&D wyrmlings are already prone to striking out on their own, they may return to a mentor dragon (or parents). But one showing up somewhere alone doesn't mean it has to be an orphan or anything.

Particular since you're thinking of using a bronze or brass dragon, they're both fairly gregarious and curious species in one way or another. Because it has an intense interest in dragon marks it may be better as a bronze, and could have been drawn to the area because of its interest.

[d13]

I don't know how Eberron dragons work in particular other than not being color coded for convenience (...)

Let's just say they don't leave their home island if it's not to rain complete and utter death and destruction on whatever upsets the Balance, and/or messes with the Draconic Prophecy

[Coidzor]

Let's just say they don't leave their home island if it's not to rain complete and utter death and destruction on whatever upsets the Balance, and/or messes with the Draconic Prophecy

There's always rogues and renegades, though, and it's conceivable that some set of circumstances would lead them to decide that the prophecy requires them to make a wyrmling so that there'll be a wyrmling in Sharn's basement at time X.

[TricksyAndFalse]

Your wyrmling is already fascinated by dragonmarks, why not have the Prophecy be the reason it's under Sharn? Maybe a bit of the Prophecy written in the sound of rain led it to Sharn to find the next verse. It found the verse written beneath the city, foretelling the PCs arrival, and that they'd do something worth watching. A few minutes after it read that bit of prophecy, the wyrmling hears the PCs footsteps.

[Maglubiyet]

Your wyrmling is already fascinated by dragonmarks, why not have the Prophecy be the reason it's under Sharn? Maybe a bit of the Prophecy written in the sound of rain led it to Sharn to find the next verse. It found the verse written beneath the city, foretelling the PCs arrival, and that they'd do something worth watching. A few minutes after it read that bit of prophecy, the wyrmling hears the PCs footsteps.

Great idea! At the very least it could be its caretakers/parents that interpreted that part of the Prophecy. The message indicated they should drop this little whelp off "under the city in the clouds" to "fulfill its destiny".

[Sith_Happens]

Any dragon parent would be remiss in its duties if it thought otherwise.

You're assuming that dragons feel a duty to care for their young in the first place. Some do, some don't, in depends on setting and color.

[Maglubiyet]

You're assuming that dragons feel a duty to care for their young in the first place. Some do, some don't, in depends on setting and color.

Brass or bronze?

[cobaltstarfire]

Bronzes do rear their young.

Dunno about brass, the 3.5 draconomicon doesn't get into courtship and child rearing for them. It does mention that brass dragons actually don't like each others company very much though since they're both so talkative, and both want to lead the conversation.


Maybe an Eberron supplement or another editions draconomicon covers Brass dragons?


Either way, even if they are reared by parents/mentors, dragons are practically autonomous from birth, they don't have to have a care taker in order to make it in the world.

[Hawkstar]

I don't know...in 3.5 a brass dragon wyrmling has 4HD, AC 15, BAB +4, and a 1d6 breath weapon. An angry mob of commoners with crowbars led by an adept could beat one down. There are several hundred thousand commoners in Sharn and a whole host of beings with martial, psionic, and spellcasting classes. Not sure how many crowbars though.

I said Rambo, not Godzilla. A wyrmling dragon packs more firepower than the average 4th-level adventurer. Furthermore, all of that is wrapped in a cat-sized package. A mob can't do **** against something that elusive, tiny, and powerful, especially in tight, labyrinthine quarters.

Dragons can fly. Commoners can't.

Wyrmlings can't fly.

I'm not saying wyrmlings are easy pickings, but bands of humanoids make formidable foes. Any dragon parent would be remiss in its duties if it thought otherwise.

Individual humanoids and tiny groups can be formidible foes. Larger bands are completely ineffective, unless the individuals or pairs within it are themselves a threat to the dragon.

[Tvtyrant]

Wyrmlings can't fly.

What? Where are you getting this? SRD says they can, all of the other editions I have played they can...

[Maglubiyet]

I said Rambo, not Godzilla. A wyrmling dragon packs more firepower than the average 4th-level adventurer. Furthermore, all of that is wrapped in a cat-sized package. A mob can't do **** against something that elusive, tiny, and powerful, especially in tight, labyrinthine quarters.

Maybe 5e is different, but in 3.5 a wyrmling is CR3, same as an Air Mephit or a Hellhound. Tough, but nothing to soil your armor over.

Brass dragon wyrmling -- no STR bonus...Bite 1d4, Claw 1d3x2, Breath 1d6, HP30, AC15. It's got STR 11 and DEX 10, Size=Tiny. A 4th-level fighter with Improved Trip would have a field day with the little guy (+4 penalty for each size category larger than opponent). Spells are also a very good option.

Wyrmlings can't fly.

In 3.5 a brass dragon wyrmling has Fly 150 ft. (Average).

[Eloel]

Brass dragon wyrmling -- no STR bonus...Bite 1d4, Claw 1d3x2, Breath 1d6, HP30, AC15. It's got STR 11 and DEX 10, Size=Tiny. A 4th-level fighter with Improved Trip would have a field day with the little guy (+4 penalty for each size category larger than opponent). Spells are also a very good option.

Flying, at-will range weapon (breath) vs Tripping Fighter. Do you know what would happen?

[cobaltstarfire]

One has to keep in mind that even kobolds and goblins in 5e with a CR of like...1/4 can be rather dangerous even at higher levels.

Bronze and Brass wyrmlings in 5e have slightly above average stats, an 1d10+str bite (both have str bonuses), a line of fire (4d6) or lightning (3d10), and a cone of sleep or repulsion (pushes opponents away 30 feet). And a fly speed of 60.

A brass dragon (the weaker of the two at CR 1) can pretty seriously wound or even kill several level one characters in a single turn. It's also got a lot mobility if it plays smart and stays in the air where it can maintain range, and easily flit to cover.

I don't think a brass dragon is anything to sneeze at for the likes commoners or a low level party.

Though I rather imagine it'd be more fun if the wyrmling just did what copper and bronze dragons are known for, and just follow the party and either talk their ears off or study them intensely.

[Maglubiyet]

Flying, at-will range weapon (breath) vs Tripping Fighter. Do you know what would happen?

Trip was just the first thing that popped into my mind when I looked at the stats. Anyway, breath weapon is usable only every 1d4 rounds.

I get it, everyone's got this weird love affair for dragons. Granted, good all-around combat, Flying, very nasty Sleep breath for the brass, but how is this even a conversation? It's still only a 4HD creature with AC15 and moderate stats and saves. No Spell Resistance yet, either. In a city the size of Sharn this guy would be a little minnow.

That's just bad parenting to cut him loose amongst all the big, scary humanoids and assume he'll be okay. Maybe if mom and dad sent him to stay with their buddy at Morgrave University to be his chaperone or hired a Deneith bodyguard or something.

[Hawkstar]

Trip was just the first thing that popped into my mind when I looked at the stats. Anyway, breath weapon is usable only every 1d4 rounds.

And there are 600 rounds in an hour. That wyrmling dragon has a +8 to hide from just size modifiers. Given a 150' fly speed (I was mistaken about Wyrmlings not being able to fly - I'd read somewhere on these boards in some argument that dragons couldn't fly until "Very Young")

I get it, everyone's got this weird love affair for dragons. Granted, good all-around combat, Flying, very nasty Sleep breath for the brass, but how is this even a conversation? It's still only a 4HD creature with AC15 and moderate stats and saves. No Spell Resistance yet, either. In a city the size of Sharn this guy would be a little minnow.

4HD, 15 AC, +8 Hide, and Tiny size. This guy can choose his battles, curbstomping and dominating WELL above his weight class, and being Gone when anything that's actually a threat to him is around.

[cobaltstarfire]

Trip was just the first thing that popped into my mind when I looked at the stats. Anyway, breath weapon is usable only every 1d4 rounds.....

In 5e they can breath as often as they want.

I also have to ask, what exactly is the point of arguing using 3e rules when the OP is using 5e? You're also arguing against the existing fluff, fluff that has stayed fairly consistent across several editions at least. Brass and Bronze extra dragons are dangerous in 5e, and all wyrmlings can take care of themselves.


Please bring forth fluff about Eberron dragons that states that wyrmlings can't take care of themselves. I don't know much about them and would like to know.

(PS Wyrmlings, at least the two in question in 5e are Medium creatures)

[TricksyAndFalse]

That's just bad parenting to cut him loose amongst all the big, scary humanoids and assume he'll be okay. Maybe if mom and dad sent him to stay with their buddy at Morgrave University to be his chaperone or hired a Deneith bodyguard or something.

The OP suggested initially that the wyrmling might be an orphan or runaway. I like the idea that maybe dragon-mom or dragon-dad did send the wyrmling to stay with someone, but the wyrmling chafed at being restricted and has naively struck out on her own.

Or, an idea I like better, maybe the bodyguard failed and is dead, and the wyrmling flew off to hide. She found the next part of prophecy in her hiding spot, and is waiting there for the PCs to find her. The PCs are investigating the death of the House Deneith bodyguard, and don't realize they are looking for a wyrmling at all.