Mystic Theurge as Feats

[Zaydos]

So I've decided to throw this together as a replacement for Mystic Theurge and see how people respond. Let's just say I feel bad and am bored.

Theurge I
You are capable of performing certain divine acts with your arcane learnings.
Prerequisites: 1 level of a class which prepares arcane spells, patron deity, Wis 11+.
Benefits: You may learn and cast 3rd level or lower Cleric spells as if they were arcane spells on the list of one class which grants you prepared arcane spellcasting. To learn and cast a cleric spell you must have a Wisdom of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Intelligence.

Theurge II
You are capable of greater and more powerful divine acts.
Prerequisites: Theurge I, Wis 14+.
Benefits: You may learn and cast 6th level or lower Cleric spells as if they were arcane spells on the list of one class which grants you prepared arcane spellcasting. To learn and cast a cleric spell you must have a Wisdom of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Intelligence.

Theurge III
You are capable of amongst the greatest of divine acts.
Prerequisites: Theurge II, Wis 17+.
Benefits: You may learn and cast 9th level or lower Cleric spells as if they were arcane spells on the list of one class which grants you prepared arcane spellcasting. To learn and cast a cleric spell you must have a Wisdom of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Intelligence.

Natural Theurge
You are capable of producing certain amounts of divine magic and power.
Prerequisites: 1st level in a class which grants spontaneous arcane spellcasting, patron deity, Wis 11+.
Benefits: Each day you may pray to your patron god for divine magic selecting one 3rd level or lower cleric spell and adding it to your spells known for a single class which allows you to spontaneously cast arcane spells for that day. To select and cast a cleric spell you must have a Wisdom of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Charisma.

Natural Theurge II
You are capable of producing certain amounts of divine magic and power.
Prerequisites: Natural Theurge I, Wis 14+.
Benefits: Each day you may pray to your patron god for divine magic selecting one 6th level or lower cleric spell and adding them to your spells known for a single class which allows you to spontaneously cast arcane spells for that day. To select and cast a cleric spell you must have a Wisdom of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Charisma.

Natural Theurge III
You are capable of producing certain amounts of divine magic and power.
Prerequisites: Natural Theurge II, Wis 17+.
Benefits: Each day you may pray to your patron god for divine magic selecting one 9th level or lower cleric spell and adding them to your spells known for a single class which allows you to spontaneously cast arcane spells for that day. To select and cast a cleric spell you must have a Wisdom of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Charisma.

Not really sure they're balanced but here they go.

[Seerow]

Regular Theurge is probably fine; since it only allows up to 3rd level cleric spells it's not really going to cause too many headaches. That said I would be careful of it for a low level game, primarily because you're basically adding all Cleric spells to the Wizard spell list until you hit level 7, at which point it drops off abruptly. Maybe consider adding a caster level requirement (so you take Theurge at 3, Theurge II at 6, and Theurge III at 9, so your cleric spell access is staggered a bit behind).


Natural Theurge on the other hand is amazing. Each feat is 2 extra spells known, going up to your highest spell levels (including 9ths) and you can change which two spells known they are daily. That is practically a must have for -every- spontaneous caster. It's a huge amount of extra versatility for extremely little cost. Heck I'd pay the three feats as a sorcerer just to be able to pick 6 spells known from the arcane list at the start of each day, let alone getting to cherry pick from a different spell list. The feats are outrageously good and probably raise the tier of any spontaneous caster that grabs them up by 1 automatically.

[Zaydos]

Yeah that's what I was afraid of, it just felt like making them spend a feat and then their very limited spells known on it just made the power difference between Wizard and Sorcerer even bigger. How much would it help to make it only 1 spell/feat so you'd have 3 feats for 1 0-3rd level spell, 1 0-6th level spell, and 1 0-9th level spell?

[Seerow]

Yeah that's what I was afraid of, it just felt like making them spend a feat and then their very limited spells known on it just made the power difference between Wizard and Sorcerer even bigger. How much would it help to make it only 1 spell/feat so you'd have 3 feats for 1 0-3rd level spell, 1 0-6th level spell, and 1 0-9th level spell?

Honestly, I'd probably leave it as 2, but make it a one time choice what spell you get, rather than being able to gain 2 new divine spells every day. It'd still be strictly better than Extra Spell, but Extra Spell is a weak enough feat (I've never seen it taken outside of E6 type environments with tons and tons of feats) I don't mind that.

If you want to keep the "Pick new spells every day" then yeah, dropping it down to 1 is probably more reasonable. On top of that I'd probably also limit the spell levels further (up to 2nd for the first feat, up to 4th for second, up to 6th for third). The pick new spells every day part is both the most interesting and most powerful aspect of the feat, so if you want to keep that, the power level needs to come down significantly.

[dextercorvia]

What if, rather than getting to pick, Natural Theurge added just one domain's spells to your spells known (3 levels at a time)? That would be more spells, but less flexibility.

[Seerow]

What if, rather than getting to pick, Natural Theurge added just one domain's spells to your spells known (3 levels at a time)? That would be more spells, but less flexibility.

Don't we already have Arcane Disciple for that?

[dextercorvia]

Don't we already have Arcane Disciple for that?

A sorcerer still has to learn them as spells known. This would add 3 extra at a time.

[Zaydos]

Honestly, I'd probably leave it as 2, but make it a one time choice what spell you get, rather than being able to gain 2 new divine spells every day. It'd still be strictly better than Extra Spell, but Extra Spell is a weak enough feat (I've never seen it taken outside of E6 type environments with tons and tons of feats) I don't mind that.

If you want to keep the "Pick new spells every day" then yeah, dropping it down to 1 is probably more reasonable. On top of that I'd probably also limit the spell levels further (up to 2nd for the first feat, up to 4th for second, up to 6th for third). The pick new spells every day part is both the most interesting and most powerful aspect of the feat, so if you want to keep that, the power level needs to come down significantly.

Yeah... It'll be something to think about, if I remember it after my 3 days without internet starting tomorrow.

What if, rather than getting to pick, Natural Theurge added just one domain's spells to your spells known (3 levels at a time)? That would be more spells, but less flexibility.

Don't we already have Arcane Disciple for that?

I was going to point out the similarities to Arcane Disciple but you got there first. It does have one major advantage in that Arcane Disciple doesn't add them to your spells known (which is why it's great for the fixed list casters who know all their spells automatically, and ok for wizards who can pick up things easily, but not so much to Sorcerers who are spending one of their 7 feats to add a few choices for spell known where most of the best ones will already be on their spell list). That said I'm probably not going that route, and if I did it would be 27 feats, 3 for each alignment, which gave a few spells based upon your deity's alignment which you got 1 of each day. That might just be because I have alignment on the brain right now.

A sorcerer still has to learn them as spells known. This would add 3 extra at a time.

The bigger reason is that the point of domains is to pick up the spells which are kind of 'off' for a cleric*, where here the point is to pick up more of the core cleric spells.

*There are exceptions, -insert alignment-, healing, death, etc, but for the most part they help give you abnormal options.

[Kish]

Going out on a limb and guessing that Theurge II and Theurge III aren't meant to say 3rd level and lower.

[Zaydos]

Going out on a limb and guessing that Theurge II and Theurge III aren't meant to say 3rd level and lower.

That would be a copy-pasta error when I changed it from Wizard to a wording that (hopefully) included Wu Jen and... any other prepared Arcane Casters out there?

[Southern Cross]

Pathfinder has the Witch class, which has full Int-based arcane casting and spell-like abilities called hexes, in addition to a familiar.

[Southern Cross]

I'd also suggest each Theurge feat has a minimum Wisdom prerequisite, say Wisdom 11 for Theurge or Natural Theurge I, Wisdom 14 for Theurge or Natural Theurge II, or Wisdom 17 for Theurge or Natural Theurge III.
I'm also working on the Natural Mage feats to eliminate the Ultimate Magus prestige class.

[Zaydos]

I'd also suggest each Theurge feat has a minimum Wisdom prerequisite, say Wisdom 11 for Theurge or Natural Theurge I, Wisdom 14 for Theurge or Natural Theurge II, or Wisdom 17 for Theurge or Natural Theurge III.
I'm also working on the Natural Mage feats to eliminate the Ultimate Magus prestige class.

I don't really think it's necessary as to actually gain any benefit from the feats you have to have it already... then again it would make things clearer that they do need to have it to gain any benefit from the feats.

[Southern Cross]

Natural Mage I
You are capable of casting some spells spontaneously.
Prerequisites: 1 level of a class which prepares arcane spells, Spell Mastery, Cha 11+, Int 11+.
Benefits: You may cast 3rd level or lower arcane spells that you have Spell Mastery with spontaneously. In order to cast a spell spontaneously you must have a Charisma of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Intelligence.

Natural Mage II
You are capable of casting powerful arcane spells spontaneously.
Prerequisites: Natural Mage I, Cha 14+, Int 14+.
Benefits: You may cast 6th level or lower arcane spells that you have Spell Mastery with spontaneously. In order to cast a spell spontaneously you must have a Charisma of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Intelligence.

Natural Mage III
You are capable of casting the most powerful arcane spells spontaneously.
Prerequisites: Natural Mage II, Cha 17+,Int 17+.
Benefits: You may cast 9th level or lower arcane spells that you have Spell Mastery with spontaneously. In order to cast a spell spontaneously you must have a Charisma of 10 + its spell level, but its save DC is still based upon Intelligence.

[Southern Cross]

Drat, I've stalled another thread. Here are a couple more feats for mystic theurges:
Strengthening the Will
By studying the arcane arts, you also improve your mental strength.
Prerequisites: Theurge or Natural Theurge I, Cha or Int 11+, Wis 11+.
Benefits: Every time you permanently increase your primary casting stat (Intelligence for magisters, prepared casters and runethanes, Charisma for spontaneous casters) you increase your Wisdom score by the same amount.

Strengthening the Mind
By studying the arcane arts, you also improve your mind as a whole.
Prerequisites: Strengthening the Will, Cha 11+,Int 11+, Wis 11+.
Benefits: Every time you permanently increase your one of your mental stat (Intelligence, Charisma or Wisdom) for spontaneous casters) you increase your other mental stats by the same amount.