Champion of Corellon Larethian (RoW)

[Talya]

Someone pointed out this PrC in another thread, and I started playing with builds. Tell me what you think, offer suggestions

40 point buy. Elf.

Str10, Dex20, Con12, Int14, Wis12, Cha14

Progression
1. Swashbuckler (1). Weapon Finesse (class), Exotic Proficiency: Elven Thinblade (PrC req.)
2. Fighter (1). Two Weapon Fighting (bonus)
3. Fighter (2). Dodge (bonus, PrC req.), Oversize Two Weapon Fighting
4. Fighter (3). +1 dex
5. Fighter (4). Combat Expertise (bonus, PrC req.)
6. Fighter (5). Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter (6). Mounted Combat (bonus, PrC req.)
8. Champion of Corellon Larethian (1). +1 dex, Corellon's Blessing (Class), Karmic Strike (bonus)
9. Champion of Corellon Larethian (2). Elegant Strike (class), Weapon Focus: Elven Thinblade
10. Champion of Corellon Larethian (3). Superior Defense +1 (class)
11. Champion of Corellon Larethian (4). Mobility (bonus)
12. Champion of Corellon Larethian (5). +1 dex, Unimpeded Movement (class), Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13. Champion of Corellon Larethian (6). Superior Defense +2 (class)
14. Champion of Corellon Larethian (7). Elusive Target [tactical] (bonus)
15. Champion of Corellon Larethian (8). Corellon's Wrath (class), Weapon Specialization: Elven Thinblade
16. Champion of Corellon Larethian (9). +1 dex Superior Defense +3 (class)
17. Champion of Corellon Larethian (10). Spring Attack (Bonus)
18. Fighter (7). Dual Strike
19. Fighter (8). Bounding Assault (bonus)
20. Swashbuckler (2). +1 dex. Grace +1 (class)

I wouldn't mind suggestions for feats, especially the PrC bonus feats, which must be fighter feats that have dodge, expertise, or mounted combat as requirements. I'm not convinced the spring attack/dual strike/bounding assault choice is really that good...do they even stack?

Edit: Perhaps combat reflexes might be good for this character...

[Talya]

Oh yes, equipment is important for this character:

A pair of Adamantine Elven Thinblades, keen with any bonus damage that can be added.
Mithril Full Plate with as much enchantment as can be afforded.
Gloves with as much +dex as affordable.
Belt with as much +strength as affordable.
Cloak with as much +charisma as affordable.
Etc.

[Nebo_]

I'm sure you could mix in swordsage somewhere and take the shadowblade feat for Dex to damage again. IIRC that isn't precision so it works on the crit immunes.

[The White Knight]

I assume, then, that multiclassing penalties have been waived, or that you simply don't care you're incurring them, yes? Your Fighter and Swashbuckler levels are vastly unbalanced, and Wizard is an elf's favored class.

[Douglas]

Shadow Blade only works for the Shadow Hand discipline's preferred weapons, which does not include the Elven Thinblade.

It might be a good idea to ditch two of the early fighter levels to get Swashbuckler 3 for intelligence to damage.

[Talya]

I assume, then, that multiclassing penalties have been waived, or that you simply don't care you're incurring them, yes? Your Fighter and Swashbuckler levels are vastly unbalanced, and Wizard is an elf's favored class.

I was willfully ignoring them.

[Annarrkkii]

I would like to observe that you are not getting Dual Strike until 18th level. It will be useful then, no doubt, but it would also be useful slightly earlier.

Disregarding XP penalties is never a good idea in experimental optimization, as it tends to cast optimization in an even worse light, since NO ONE would play a build with hefty XP penalties. 40-pt. buy is slightly unrealistic, as well.

I second the movement to get a level more, at least, in Swashbuckler, if you're trying to optimize. Grab a Headband of Intellect +6 and that's another +5 damage per hit.

[Talya]

I would like to observe that you are not getting Dual Strike until 18th level. It will be useful then, no doubt, but it would also be useful slightly earlier.

Disregarding XP penalties is never a good idea in experimental optimization, as it tends to cast optimization in an even worse light, since NO ONE would play a build with hefty XP penalties. 40-pt. buy is slightly unrealistic, as well.

40 point buy is about the standard in games i've been in. I prefer high point buys anyway. If I went all fighter, though, I'd really only lose grace, although i'd be a feat behind until level 20.

I second the movement to get a level more, at least, in Swashbuckler, if you're trying to optimize. Grab a Headband of Intellect +6 and that's another +5 damage per hit.

Gotcha! I did the exact same thing when I was first playing with this build, then realized it doesn't work. Champion of Corellon Larethian is entirely based around heavy armor (made medium through mithral). Insightful strike only works in light armor or less, and two of the champion's big abilities (Superior Defense, Unimpeded movement) do nothing in light armor.

[Annarrkkii]

Well HMPH! I really wasn't examining the higher levels of Corellan, because, I shamefully admit, I've never looked far past Graceful Strike, since it's the only ability that generally comes up in the megacheese builds I read.

[Matthew]

Interestingly, you don't need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting for this build (as I have recently learned), since you aren't using Power Attack and both Thin Blade and Light Blade count as Rapiers for Weapon Focus type Feats.

It's a pity Thomas isn't around anymore, he knew a lot about this sort of build. You could try searching for his posts regarding the Champion of Corellon Larethian Prestige Class.

[Tor the Fallen]

What about wood elf and taking a couple levels of ranger before fighter? A little less optimal, but you get skills and a str bonus, and ranger as your favored class. You also get endurance (sleep in your armor!), track, and a favored enemy. Lose a feat and get stepped down a HD.
I'd be tempted to go this route for a little more flavor.


Can you take flaws?


Wood elf instead of high elf (unless you have to be a high elf for the PrC) would be more advantageous. +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int.

[Talya]

Interestingly, you don't need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting for this build (as I have recently learned), since you aren't using Power Attack and both Thin Blade and Light Blade count as Rapiers for Weapon Focus type Feats.

It's a feat either way. If I do that, I replace OTWF with Exotic Proficiency: Elven Lightblade. I thought about going that way, but why bother? Sure it's only 1 point of damage her hit going from a d6 to a d8...but it's the same cost either way.

[Talya]

What about wood elf and taking a couple levels of ranger before fighter? A little less optimal, but you get skills and a str bonus, and ranger as your favored class. You also get endurance (sleep in your armor!), track, and a favored enemy. Lose a feat and get stepped down a HD.
I'd be tempted to go this route for a little more flavor.

Too bad the ranger combat style wouldn't work in her gleaming silver plate.

Can you take flaws?

Not really using this in a game yet, just playing around in it. I wouldn't, though.

Wood elf instead of high elf (unless you have to be a high elf for the PrC) would be more advantageous. +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int.

From a pure munchkin standpoint, yeah. I already thought of wood elf. They are superior melee combatants. Grugach would be better, too. However, neither really fits the style of the sophisticated, ancient high-elven protector. Going for more glorfindel over legolas here. When I hadn't yet noticed that Insightful Strike didn't work, I was trying to justify not taking Drow (Drow follower of corellon larethian????) since the +dex, +int would be a superior choice.

[Tor the Fallen]

Too bad the ranger combat style wouldn't work in her gleaming silver plate.

Incentive to go mithral breastplate and that second level of swashbuckler?

From a pure munchkin standpoint, yeah. I already thought of wood elf. They are superior melee combatants. Grugach would be better, too. However, neither really fits the style of the sophisticated, ancient high-elven protector. Going for more glorfindel over legolas here.

Pfff, elves. Why aren't there more vareities of orcs LA +0, that's what I want to know

[Talya]

Incentive to go mithral breastplate and that second level of swashbuckler?

Oh yeah, except i'm trying to build a champion of corellon larethian, and the whole class is built around full plate (heavy or medium-mithral). Their abilities don't even work on light armor (not that they'd matter if they did.)

Dipping into this PrC is yet another way to build a lightly armored high dex fighter, sure...not what I'm trying to do though. I'm all loving the image of the full-gleaming-mithral plate clad elf hopping around with all the agility as if she's naked.

[Douglas]

You could take Improved Weapon Familiarity (Complete Warrior) instead of Exotic Weapon Proficiency and get all the "Elven ____" proficiencies for just one feat. It doesn't technically satisfy the exact RAW requirement, but I imagine very few DMs wouldn't let it pass.

[Matthew]

It's a feat either way. If I do that, I replace OTWF with Exotic Proficiency: Elven Lightblade. I thought about going that way, but why bother? Sure it's only 1 point of damage her hit going from a d6 to a d8...but it's the same cost either way.

Good point. I forgot that you needed to do that.

[Annarrkkii]

Gotcha! I did the exact same thing when I was first playing with this build, then realized it doesn't work. Champion of Corellon Larethian is entirely based around heavy armor (made medium through mithral). Insightful strike only works in light armor or less, and two of the champion's big abilities (Superior Defense, Unimpeded movement) do nothing in light armor.

Huh. Having just examined these two abilities—there really isn't much point in gearing your character toward them. Neither is especially potent, and Superior Defense would apply to Mithral Breastplate, by the current wording, unless I misread. The only difference between Mithral Breastplate and Full Plate is a few thousand GP in breastplate's favor and 3 armor points in Full Plate's, but you can easily compensate for the lost armor bonuses with further Dex pumpage (which also results in additional damage and skill usage), or a dip into Duelist for Int. to AC in light armor (which Mithral Breastplate is). As nice as Unimpeded Movement is, there's really no need to give up considerable additional melee damage just so you can use the abilities.

[Kaiserkreuz]

I'm trying to make a Champion of Corellon from the Knight class in Player's handbook 2 3.5. Wonder if the feat build is good. Stats are from re-roll.

STR 18, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 15, WIS 14, CHA 18

Progression
1. Knight (1). Weapon Focus: Long Sword (PrC req).
2. Knight (2). Mounted Combat (Bonus)
3. Knight (3). Dodge (PrC req.)
4. Knight (4). +1 STR
5. Knight (5). Combat Expertise (bonus, PrC req.)
6. Knight (6). Improved Critical: Long Sword
7. Knight (7).
8. Champion of Corellon Larethian (1). +1 STR, Blind fight (bonus)
9. Champion of Corellon Larethian (2). Combat Reflexes
10. Champion of Corellon Larethian (3).
11. Champion of Corellon Larethian (4). Improved Initiative (bonus)
12. Champion of Corellon Larethian (5). +1 STR, Shield Specialization
13. Champion of Corellon Larethian (6).
14. Champion of Corellon Larethian (7). Shield Ward (bonus)
15. Champion of Corellon Larethian (8). Mobility
16. Champion of Corellon Larethian (9). +1 STR
17. Champion of Corellon Larethian (10). Spring Attack (Bonus)
18. Knight (8). Bounding Assault
19. Knight (9).
20. Knight (10). +1 STR. Rapid Blitz (Bonus)

Wondering if this build is ok.

[Saph]