Where are all the half-dwarves?

[Bane-Wordsmith]

Humans seem to a blank canvas that a multitude of races can blend with. There's the obvious half-elves and half-orcs. But you've also got changelings, all of the plane-touched, half-celestials, half-fiends and half-dragons; How often do you see them knocking about with humans?
There are a multitude more that I could go to mention, but my point is; Dwarves, along with elves, are the most common race that humans interact with. Where are all the little interracial babies?
How are all of those out of the way races more likely to procreate than a Human/Dwarf union? And if Dwarves aren't genetically compatible, really, how is it that Orcs are? ORCS?!?

[goto124]

To thread title: aren't they halflings?

[Vrock_Summoner]

Why does the compatibility of orcs make the incompatibility of dwarves any less likely? It's simply a matter of species. With the demons and half/quarter/whatever-celestial dragon babies, there's magic justifying everything. But with elves and orcs... At this point, I'm assuming that they're all branches of the same species, since not only do they produce offspring, but those offspring are themselves fertile. Dwarves (and gnomes and halflings, etc.) are actually legitimately separate species, thus they can't form (viable?) offspring. I mean, without the help of additional magic, I guess. I wouldn't put anything past the wizards, they can pull off some odd stuff.

[Lavranzo]

Well, I am sure there are a few half-dwarves, somewhere, but I believe that I'd rather have babies with a dragon (in human disguise), an angel or a succubus (or other female-ish demon) than a dwarf :P. Oh, and I do believe that orcs aren't that different from human, at least not in my campaign. In my campaign they're more like refined humans with a bit more brutish appeal and a slightly green-tinted skin. Other than that they resemble humans just as much as elves do.

[BWR]

They're all on Athas, making names for themselves as gladiators.

[hymer]

Speaking from a Middle-earth perspective, humans and elves are closely related. Humans and elves are mainly different from each other in soul, not in body (Tolkien goes so far as to state that they are the same species). The exact nature of orcs isn't firmly established, but their being twisted elves or humans are two of the possibilities. Any cross-breeding of orcs with other races is very poorly understood, anyway. To the extent it occurs, it's because someone made it happen, usually Sauron, but possibly Saruman in one case.
Dwarves, on the other hand, are a people very much apart. They were made by Aulë, in a fit of impatience you might say. While they were blessed by Ilúvatar to gain true life, both their bodies (made by Aulë) and their souls (with their separate after-life) are truly apart from humans and elves.

So from a meta-perspective, it's a case of 'follow the leader' that half-dwarves are comparatively rare in fantasy worlds.

[Kantaki]

As hymer said it is pretty much Tolkiens fault. But I would add that even in mythology dwarves are rarely paired with nondwarves. For elves, the various kinds of nymphs, fae, centaurs, demons etc. you can usually find a tale or three where they show interest in humans and even have children with them. Dwarves? The only story I can think of is about Freya sleeping with four of them to gain the Brisingamen, the (magic) necklace that was associated with her. Odin forced her to start a war to punish her for this stunt but it had no consequences. And even if it had Freya wasn't human so it is kind of irrelevant.

[Maglubiyet]

It is a little strange that they don't occur naturally. Even the muls of Dark Sun's Athas are the product of intentional crossbreeding by slavers. I guess that says a little about the perceived attractiveness and promiscuity of dwarves (i.e. - they have none).

What about half-halflings and half-kender? That would just be creepy.

[Kantaki]

It is a little strange that they don't occur naturally. Even the muls of Dark Sun's Athas are the product of intentional crossbreeding by slavers. I guess that says a little about the perceived attractiveness and promiscuity of dwarves (i.e. - they have none).

What about half-halflings and half-kender? That would just be creepy.

Maybe it is not that others think dwarves are unattractive but they think every other race looks uglier than the dwarven god of things that are ugly.

And halflings and gnomes? They have this childlike look that stops most members other races from dating them.

[zinycor]

Dark sun dude, they are all on Athas, and they are awesome!!!

[Ralanr]

I wonder why it was just dark sun. Don't hear about Muls in Eberron or Forgotten realms. A DM could add them, but they aren't official.

we need more half-dwarves. Or half races that aren't half human (we have dragons and ogres, but usually a half creature that has no human is half-dragon and half-something not human.)

Cross breeding people! There's always a curious person!

[Dimers]

I'd rather have babies with a dragon (in human disguise), an angel or a succubus (or other female-ish demon) than a dwarf :P.

Ehh, to each her own. A dwarven woman would be awesome for me -- I love breadth and sturdiness and good health in my partners. Wouldn't turn down an angel, sure, but I would worry all the time about the angel judging my imperfections. And I wouldn't trust a dragon or fiend for two seconds, and trust is necessary for a worthwhile long-term relationship. Elves would be okay, I guess, but they're so frail ... I'm a heavy guy, I don't want to worry about breaking my wife if I accidentally bump into her in the house. If I have to choose between wrestler and fencer, wrestler is the body type for me.

And halflings and gnomes? They have this childlike look that stops most members other races from dating them.

Let's not take that line of thinking even half a step farther.

Maybe it is not that others think dwarves are unattractive but they think every other race looks uglier than the dwarven god of things that are ugly.

Yup. Dwarven women might be okay with human men, but a dwarven male trying to find something attractive about a completely hairless chin? -- fuhgeddaboudit!

It is a little strange that they don't occur naturally. Even the muls of Dark Sun's Athas are the product of intentional crossbreeding by slavers.

Much like real-world mules, a half-breed that's possible but won't usually happen on its own. And like mules, muls may be mostly or completely unable to breed themselves. You want more mules, you throw more horses and donkeys at each other. A "species" that can't continue on its own isn't likely to make a big splash in literature because readers object to massive illogical consequences.

[Ralanr]

Well half-elves and half-orcs don't exactly breed more. Only half dragons do that and it makes sorcerers.

Or it's pathfinder where Orc and elf bloodlines for sorcerers exist. I love how genetically based pathfinder can be. Based on what your ancestor did centuries ago, you could give birth to a tiefling in a family of humans!

Always humans...still better than D&D tiefling which is an entire race. In my opinion anyway, YMMV.

[S_Dalsgaard]

Perhaps there are plenty of half-dwarves running around, but the genetic stock of dwarves are so strong, that any half-breed effectively is a dwarf, much like any person with more human than elven blood is often considered a human. In my campaign I have done something similar for half-elves. They exist, but they have the stats/benefits of either a human or an elf (whichever the player chose to be the dominant genes).

[Kantaki]

Ehh, to each her own. A dwarven woman would be awesome for me -- I love breadth and sturdiness and good health in my partners. Wouldn't turn down an angel, sure, but I would worry all the time about the angel judging my imperfections. And I wouldn't trust a dragon or fiend for two seconds, and trust is necessary for a worthwhile long-term relationship. Elves would be okay, I guess, but they're so frail ... I'm a heavy guy, I don't want to worry about breaking my wife if I accidentally bump into her in the house. If I have to choose between wrestler and fencer, wrestler is the body type for me.

I won't comment on the attractiveness of dwarves compared to other races. Can't argue about taste after all. But not trusting Dragons or fiends? Why not? I mean sure I would decide this on from case to case but even the denizens of the lower planes and the giant lizards can't be judged only by their species. Same goes for angels and anything else with an always x label. As long as the gal is nice, more or less good looking and wants to be with me why should I about her species?

But back on Topic the easiest explanations for the question why there are no half-dwarves are that they are not compatible with other races, there is no attraction between dwarves and other races and no one saw a point in creating them. Excluding worlds where they exist of course.

@ Ralanr: But at least half elves do procreate. Elrond had children and at least Arwen had some as well. While neither had an halfelven Partner (Well, Aragorn had elvish blood) it does not seem unreasonable that two halfelves/ halforcs could have children that cound as halfbloods as well.

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe there are no half-breeds because the races can't breed. So now you know why elven queens kidnap teenage boys.

Maybe, to serious, Dwarves are a half-breed? A mixture of gnome and human blood, so that mixing with humans or gnomes just gives something close enough to either race.

I still want to play a half elf half orc, where the noble orc whisked the savage elf away to his beautiful city and fell in love with her (I prefer to include civilised orcs to 'tribal orcs'), or the human child of two half breeds.

[Zaydos]

Races of Ansalon (3.5 Dragonlance) has half-dwarves (they suck and are just dwarves with no racial ability modifiers, human land speed, and all the numbers halved... except the combat bonuses which are lost entirely). I don't know if they were actually in the books or 2e though. Apparently back in 2e there was a Forgotten Realm supplement on dwarves (Dwarves Deep) which stated that they do exist they are just functionally identical to humans or dwarves.

And I'd actually say gnomes are more likely to be a half-breed than dwarves. They're dwarves, except smaller, frailer, and more effeminate, and with some almost elven magical talent... they are obviously the blasphemous result of ancient dwarf-elf marriages and the current hatred between the two races is actually just a cultural custody battle for the gnomes.

Edit: On half-elf breeding the 2e Complete Book of Elves stated that 2 half-elves produced a half-elf, a half-elf and a human produced a human, and a half-elf and an elf produced an elf (specifically it was if you are less than 50% elf you're human, if you are 50% or more but less than 100% elf you're a half-elf). Also in Eberron half-elves are a true breeding species originally descended from human and elf intermarriage, iirc (Eberron is not my forte).

[Kantaki]

Maybe there are no half-breeds because the races can't breed. So now you know why elven queens kidnap teenage boys.

Maybe, to serious, Dwarves are a half-breed? A mixture of gnome and human blood, so that mixing with humans or gnomes just gives something close enough to either race.

I still want to play a half elf half orc, where the noble orc whisked the savage elf away to his beautiful city and fell in love with her (I prefer to include civilised orcs to 'tribal orcs'), or the human child of two half breeds.

I think the Dark Eye had Orc-Elf hybrids (Holberker or something like that) but the Explanation for them was something really odd and all I remember is that it involved Nahema the resident Mary Sue (casting while wearing chainmail the little...) messing with the Situation.

Dwarves as half-gnomes? That is an interesting idea. But aren't they a little bit too different from the parent races?

[Grim Portent]

As hymer said it is pretty much Tolkiens fault. But I would add that even in mythology dwarves are rarely paired with nondwarves. For elves, the various kinds of nymphs, fae, centaurs, demons etc. you can usually find a tale or three where they show interest in humans and even have children with them. Dwarves? The only story I can think of is about Freya sleeping with four of them to gain the Brisingamen, the (magic) necklace that was associated with her. Odin forced her to start a war to punish her for this stunt but it had no consequences. And even if it had Freya wasn't human so it is kind of irrelevant.

It's possible the Norse mythology kept the origins of dwarves in mind when considering half-breeds. Gods and giants interbred frequently, but they were ultimately of similar origins, the dwarves and humans arose from maggots and swaet respectively, so while it makes some sense for the former two to be able breed with each other it wouldn't make any sense for the latter two to be able to breed with each other.

Assuming the Norse knew you couldn't cross-breed most animals they may have applied a similar idea to their folktales.

[Hawkstar]

Humans seem to a blank canvas that a multitude of races can blend with. There's the obvious half-elves and half-orcs. But you've also got changelings, all of the plane-touched, half-celestials, half-fiends and half-dragons; How often do you see them knocking about with humans?
There are a multitude more that I could go to mention, but my point is; Dwarves, along with elves, are the most common race that humans interact with. Where are all the little interracial babies?

Dwarves stick to dwarves - violating that is worse than bestiality.

How are all of those out of the way races more likely to procreate than a Human/Dwarf union? And if Dwarves aren't genetically compatible, really, how is it that Orcs are? ORCS?!?

Luthic made Orcs able to breed with almost anything, to:
1. Increase orc numbers in the names of Gruumsh and Luthic.
2. Increase the horror of rape at the hands of an orc.

[Maglubiyet]

Apparently there is at least some inter-species attraction. Like that awkward subplot in the Hobbit movies with the completely non-canon elf woman (Tauriel?) and the captive dwarf?

As much as I love looking at Evangeline Lily, that was just weird.

[Anonymouswizard]

And I'd actually say gnomes are more likely to be a half-breed than dwarves. They're dwarves, except smaller, frailer, and more effeminate, and with some almost elven magical talent... they are obviously the blasphemous result of ancient dwarf-elf marriages and the current hatred between the two races is actually just a cultural custody battle for the gnomes.

Makes sense, I was just trying to give a decent reason for no half dwarf half sex crazed monkey crossbreeds, and it seemed like a decent enough explanation if you were willing to redesign rock gnomes or the like. I'm far more likely to have gnomes be the half-breeds though, and make them human/dwarf (change their magical ability to be anything and give them free skill focus and it works alright, or at least as well as 4e half-elves).

I think the Dark Eye had Orc-Elf hybrids (Holberker or something like that) but the Explanation for them was something really odd and all I remember is that it involved Nahema the resident Mary Sue (casting while wearing chainmail the little...) messing with the Situation.

Eww, number one reason I wouldn't sleep with fantasy women, they have no fashion sense. Secondly, is elves and orcs just too much to imagine? It makes as more sense than half dragons.

Dwarves as half-gnomes? That is an interesting idea. But aren't they a little bit too different from the parent races?

If I was doing that I'd significantly rework at least one race, maybe humans.

[Kantaki]

Apparently there is at least some inter-species attraction. Like that awkward subplot in the Hobbit movies with the completely non-canon elf woman (Tauriel?) and the captive dwarf?

As much as I love looking at Evangeline Lily, that was just weird.

Well you can't argue about taste, but I think those two are more or less an exeption from the norm. After all the movie needed an romance subplot, every movie needs one. Even if you have to mangle the source story to include it. Especially if you have to do so.

@Anonymouswizard: The problem with Nahema is that she is an human maga who used lost time magic to make herself immortal (the lesser problem since the PCs can theoretically do the same) and can cast while wearing chainmail with shouldn't be possible due to iron -and many other metals- blocking magic. The question how this looks is her problem.

[Lord Raziere]

the problem with a half-dwarf though is um....

it'd basically look like a human. but with more muscles and beard in the case of men, and just more muscles in case of women.

so how could possibly tell the difference between a normal human who works out a lot and a half-dwarf? there could be lots of half-dwarves and we'd never notice because they'd all pretty much look like normal fantasy vikings or whatever. with half-elves, at least you have the "pointed ear" thing to let you know, but with Half-Dwarves, its like, is the result even something thats separate from normal humanity? its arguable that humans are just tall dwarves.

[Maglubiyet]

its arguable that humans are just tall dwarves.

Dire Dwarves?

[Anonymouswizard]

Well you can't argue about taste, but I think those two are more or less an exeption from the norm. After all the movie needed an romance subplot, every movie needs one. Even if you have to mangle the source story to include it. Especially if you have to do so.

Because all the great films had random romances, like The Dam Busters.

@Anonymouswizard: The problem with Nahema is that she is an human maga who used lost time magic to make herself immortal (the lesser problem since the PCs can theoretically do the same) and can cast while wearing chainmail with shouldn't be possible due to iron -and many other metals- blocking magic. The question how this looks is her problem.

It's even worse than I feared! She is a Mary Sue!

To be serious, I have no problem with iconic characters managing impossible feats, as it just sets the tone that the PCs are expected to do the same level of impossible feats (although that gives me an idea for a Scion game where Magic and Prophecy are lost purviews, which get rediscovered over the course of the cycle). But I'm not fond of characters breaking rules that PCs just can't circumvent (to go back to Scion, I plan to have a Hero-level NPC who can channel health boons without Relics. Turns out that he performed the 'self sacrifice' version where the permanent loss of his physical health counts as an appropriate relic), the PCs should be able to, with time and effort, be able to bend any rule that can be bent, although not every rule.

Maybe it's magical ironwood chainmail (aka the 3.X druid metal solution), or would that make too much sense?

[Lord Raziere]

Dire Dwarves?

No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

[Anonymouswizard]

No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

...thank you for making the argument for dwarves being half human better than I could...

[Honest Tiefling]

Forgotten Realms actually has a race of Dwarves that has I believe, Azer blood in them. They are pretty rare and I believe only a single clan. And I completely and utterly forget their name. So breeding between outsiders and dwarves has been mentioned at least once.

And in pathfinder, technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing stopping a player from making a tiefling dwarf, just that the stats do not change.

[Lord Raziere]

...thank you for making the argument for dwarves being half human better than I could...

lastly, if this forum is any indication, we seem to have a universal hatred of elves. I mean if I had a had dollar for every nerd that ever said that they hate elves in fantasy and how they're a mary sue race, I'd be rich.