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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    One of my very difficult players wants one. Claims that he can get an unslotted charm of cure light wounds level 1 with unlimited use for 4000 gold, which the party can at the moment afford. How can I tell him off without the obvious no? Is this even RAW legal?
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Custom Items are guidelines made to aid the DM with determining how much the item will cost.

    A player can't just make the item if he wants it, he can make it if the DM okays it. This is how custom items work.

    Some of the custom item forumlas don't work well for certain spells.
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Ask him to crunch the numbers for the cost of a use activated ring of true strike.

    Then show him the part in the DMG where crafting is totally up to the DM, and the rules are actually guidelines.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    It is legal by the RAW, but you can tell him to take the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat and constantly wear/use the ring while lacking protection from positive energy. Alternatively, you could throw enemies at him with the same ring.

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Armads View Post
    It is legal by the RAW, but you can tell him to take the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat and constantly wear/use the ring while lacking protection from positive energy. Alternatively, you could throw enemies at him with the same ring.
    No, it's not legal by RAW, as there are no rules that exist for custom items. There are guidelines.

    Furthermore, there are items that exist that don't follow the guidelines. Crunch the numbers on wings of flying, for instance. According to the guidelines, they're overpriced.

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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    As mentioned above, remind him that the formula he used is strictly a guideline and the rules specifically require explicit DM approval. Also point out that one unstated but (almost) universally obeyed rule for non-custom items is that duplicating a spell with instantaneous duration should never have unlimited uses. The only two exceptions in core that I am aware of are the Ring of Telekinesis (instantaneous application is normally useful only in combat and requires an action) and Amulet of the Planes (unreliable and risky until very high levels). Give it either charges or uses per day and it should be fine.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    This was just discussed.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41417

    The first step in determining the cost of a magic item is to compare it to a similar item. The closest thing to a ring that casts unlimited cure light wounds is a ring of regeneration, which costs (iirc) 20k and heals 1hp per level per hour. So at level 20, it would heal 20hp per hour. A ring of that casts cure light wounds, on average heals 4.5 (avg d8) x 10 (rnds per minute) x 60 (minutes per hour) or 2700 hp per hour; which is 135 times more than a ring of regeneration. Now, it does use your action for each round so it shouldn't really be 135 times more expensive, but that would be 2.7 million. Even if you were to make it 1/10 that for the fact that it uses an action, it ain't happening for many people until quite late in the game. 'The rules', which every newbie and powergamer, are the guidelines that the DM is supposed to use if an item does not have a similar item to compare it to.

    (See pg 282. "Many factors must be considered when determining the price of magic items you invent. The easierst way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.", also, the final line in this page is key "Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples.")

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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen View Post
    Furthermore, there are items that exist that don't follow the guidelines. Crunch the numbers on wings of flying, for instance. According to the guidelines, they're overpriced.
    Actually, Wings of Flying follow the guidelines exactly. The reason they're so expensive is that someone decided to give them twice the minimum caster level for no apparent reason, doubling the price.
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Actually, Wings of Flying follow the guidelines exactly. The reason they're so expensive is that someone decided to give them twice the minimum caster level for no apparent reason, doubling the price.
    If they followed the guidelines, wouldn't they follow the guidelines?

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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Wings of Flying: a level 3 spell (Fly) at caster level 10 activated by command word costs 3 * 10 * 1800 = 54000 gp, which happens to be exactly the listed price for the item. There is very little reason to have the caster level at 10 rather than 5, but that's what WotC decided to set it at for their official version so that's the number used in the formula.
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    This is RAW.

    So is Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Wings of Flying: a level 3 spell (Fly) at caster level 10 activated by command word costs 3 * 10 * 1800 = 54000 gp, which happens to be exactly the listed price for the item.
    Oh, yeah, ok, I gotcha.

    There is very little reason to have the caster level at 10 rather than 5, but that's what WotC decided to set it at for their official version so that's the number used in the formula.
    For power reasons, I'd think.

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by tsuyoshikentsu View Post
    This is RAW.
    No it isn't.

    Anyway, just make it an intelligent item with the lesser power of Cure Light Wounds. If you want to be nice, you could also give the ring another power... and if you want to be mean, give it an obscene ego score.
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    No it isn't.

    Anyway, just make it an intelligent item with the lesser power of Cure Light Wounds. If you want to be nice, you could also give the ring another power... and if you want to be mean, give it an obscene ego score.
    Yeah, and then the ring could refuse to cure its wearer and force him to see Mr. Sauron...
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by tsuyoshikentsu View Post
    This is RAW.

    So is Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
    Ah, sweet blessed Disjunction: the gear-specific "rocks fall, everyone dies, do not anger the GM" clause. Even the *threat* of using it is enough to persuade most players that they've strayed into the realms of bad taste and dirty brokenness.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    Ah, sweet blessed Disjunction: the gear-specific "rocks fall, everyone dies, do not anger the GM" clause. Even the *threat* of using it is enough to persuade most players that they've strayed into the realms of bad taste and dirty brokenness.
    My DM of old used to use it on a whim. He'd give us a bunch of new stuff and spend ages going through books, explaining what it does to everyone as we take the time to ID it (a good half hour or more, real time). Then Disjunction it all to buggery without warning about 5 minutes later. Then again, his idea of a good session was a TPK...every session in an ongoing campaign (he felt he'd failed if he hadn't killed of at least 1 PC every sesh.)
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Continous effect items duplicating a spell require the spell have a duration. Cure Light Wounds is instantaneous, therefore no go.
    You can make it with "x" charges, or "x" uses per day.
    Vigor spells, on the otherhand, do have durations, and thus can be done this way. It would be 8000gp as a slotted item that healed 1 hp per rd. While this is faster then the Ring of Regen, it doesn't regrow limbs ecetre. It would also have the difficulty of finding a Druid who has the appropriate crafting feat, and is willing to do it for the party. A epic adventure on its own (when did you last see a Druid take a crafting feat).

    As others have noted, it should always be remembered that custom built items are by GM fiat. The Guidelines are for how the GM should handle it IF HE DECIDES TO ALLOW THE ITEM.

    Stephen

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlan View Post
    The first step in determining the cost of a magic item is to compare it to a similar item.
    No, the first step is to ask your DM :)

    Personally I'd allow a continuous item of lesser vigor using the guidelines, but not an infinite/day item of CLW (I dislike infinite charges per day items). Out of combat healing is overrated, if you play in a game with default wealth guidelines hitpoints are NOT an expensive resource. Wands of CLW/LV cost next to nothing.
    Last edited by PinkysBrain; 2007-04-22 at 09:11 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Wands of LV totally own Wands of CLW.

    Wand of LV = 750gp for 550 hps of healing
    Wand of CLW = 750gp for 275 hps of healing, on average. Range 100hps - 450 hps.

    Hell, even in combat I'd rather take a guaranteed 1 hp/rd for 11 rounds over a oneshot 1d8+1 in 90%+ situations.

    Stephen

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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    1. let the player have it
    2. use some kind of creature with a ridiculous death attack
    3. ???
    4. profit

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Easy. Tell him that custom itens need to be DM approved, and you don't like how it turned out because you think it's unbalanced. Be honest about it.
    A ring that can heal the whole party in a few minutes after a combat? Too good to be allowed.

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Secretly assign the ring a number of charges without telling him. He pays 4,000gp for a caster level 1 wand of cure light wounds (which costs 750gp). Problem solved.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Corolinth View Post
    Secretly assign the ring a number of charges without telling him. He pays 4,000gp for a caster level 1 wand of cure light wounds (which costs 750gp). Problem solved.
    Um, this would be a really cruel solution, but it would work.

    Myself, I'd just say "No infinite charge instaneous cast items." Give it a cooldown or an X cast per day, or you can't have it.

    That way, you can at least plan on it when designing the rest of the campaign.

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    My solution teaches a very valuable lesson to players: Prick rules lawyers don't get lube.

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Corolinth View Post
    My solution teaches a very valuable lesson to players: Prick rules lawyers don't get lube.
    You could do that just as well by having the party fight a larcenous monk with Gloves of Slay Living, use-activated of course, on their next encounter.

    And after the monk kills the party, he gets to keep the ring.

    Or you could just bring up that possibility with the player in question and he should fall in line.

  26. - Top - End - #26

    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    That means they're dead, and don't have to suffer the consequences of their actions, or care about being ripped off for 3,000gp.

    You guys are really going overboard and overthinking this. Gloves of slay living would allow a fortitude save, and the monk could be defeated, which would give your players said gloves. Mordenkainen's Disjunction and powerful enemies with death attacks are horribly contrived, and either can fail by a miraculous stroke of blind luck. You have to just keep it simple.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Lying to your player about the capabilities of a custom item they're buying accomplishes... what? If a player wants something that you don't want in the game, tell them you don't want it. Explain why (optional, but a good idea). In this case, make it very clear that players don't get to create custom items without DM approval.

    It's an out-of-game issue - he wants you to allow something in the game that is unbalanced. It should be resolved out of game - by explaining that it's unbalanced and you're not going to allow it. It should not be resolved by pulling a bait-and-switch of telling him it's one thing and secretly treating it as another.

  28. - Top - End - #28

    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Well, if they're buying it, it potentially sets up a plot to hunt down the cheating bastard that sold it to them. That's an opening to months of gaming fun. This, of course, assumes you're running a D&D campaign with some semblance of an actual plot, instead of 3rd edition Hackmaster. They really don't need to go any further than that. The person they bought it from cheated them, that becomes the new plotline, and the con artist becomes a somewhat major villain who's scamming lots of other victims. When they finally bring him to justice, the rewards far outweigh the money they were ripped out of, and they're lauded as heroes. In the process, the group should hopefully get a general idea that they need to be a bit more reasonable about the custom magic items they want to buy.

    Now if it's a custom item the character crafted himself, then you're teaching him an object lesson that every player needs to learn at some point. Other systems handle item creation in such a way as to require some sort of roll before the item is successfully made, and there are still chances of the item breaking later when it's used. D&D doesn't do this. A large number of D&D players, especially those who spend a lot of time on message boards revolving around online comics pertaining to D&D, think that item creation feats are the one-way ticket to min/max munchkinland. This is an issue that can sometimes be dealt with in a one-on-one chat about what is and is not appropriate for the campaign, but all too often, the idea does not sink in until something goes horribly wrong.

    This player knows the unlimited charge cure light wounds item is too powerful, that's why he wants it. That's why he's pointing out it's in their price range. When it burns out on him, and he complains, that's when the DM turns to him and asks, "Did you really think I was allowing an item with unlimited daily uses of healing?" This player is trying to find a loophole in the rules to get an advantage without technically "cheating," and he's well aware that's what he's doing.

    But upon rereading the original post, they're still at the stage where the DM hasn't given an answer one way or the other. I'd say just flat out tell him no. Give the player a chance to drop it. If he then decides to push, or tries to bully you into letting him have the item, then you cut loose with the evil. Unless of course you like the idea of the scam artist minicampaign I presented in the first paragraph - that works best if you don't give them any warning (although the ring should fizzle out within the next two gaming sessions if you want to set that plot up).

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Quote Originally Posted by tsuyoshikentsu View Post
    This is RAW.

    So is Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
    RAW? THIS! IS! HOMEBREW!

    Really, there are now specific rules for these kind of things, so you have to trust your instincts.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Ring of Cure Light Wounds

    Economics is key here. Ignoring what the DMG says a thing should cost, what would you pay for it? That's what merchants will charge for it, and that's the base cost.

    Ask yourself, "Would I want a Ring of Cure Light Wounds or Gloves of Dexterity +2?" Then go to a more expensive thing. "Would I rather have Wings of Flying or the ability to completely heal my entire party after every encounter?"

    If you get to "Would I rather have a Ring of Cure Light Wounds or the Hand of Vecna?" stop and smite the player with a rolled up newspaper.

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