Innuendo? a 3.0 skill?

[henebry]

I'm doing a quick adaptation of the Oriental Adv.'s Ninja Spy Prestige class.

I came back to D&D at the 3.5 stage, so I'm not clear what the skill "innuendo" corresponds to. I would guess that it got folded into bluff, but just wanted to check that I wasn't missing something.

[Bears With Lasers]

It did get folded into Bluff.

[Khantalas]

That, and Sense Motive.

[henebry]

Thanks. Another problem:

The Leap of the Clouds class ability doesn't seem to make sense, given the 3.5 jump rules: "A third-level ninja spy's jumping distance (vertical or hoizontal) is not limited according to his height."

The Jump skill in 3.5 does make mention of "vertical reach" based on character size, but vertical reach doesn't set an upper limit on jump distance. It sets a lower limit (how far a character can simply reach without having to make a jump roll).

Can someone clarify the function that character height played in the 3.0 jump rule and advise me on how to modify this class ability to provide some advantage in 3.5? Or maybe the class ability can simply be scrapped? Note that the Acrobatics class ability has already provides the Ninja spy with a +10 competence bonus on jump checks (as well as balance, climb & tumble), a bonus which becomes +20 at higher levels.

[Iron_Mouse]

Can someone clarify the function that character height played in the 3.0 jump rule

*Digs out 3.0 PHB*
Hmm...the maximum distance one could jump was indeed based on the character's height.
Long jump, running start: Height x 6
Long jump, standing start: Height x 2
High jump, running start: Height x 1 1/2
High jump, standing start: Height

Wow, that sucked. You couldn't break these limits, no matter how high your speed or jump check was.

They completely got rid of an upper limit, based on size or not, in the 3.5 rules. That makes this class feature pretty much obsolete.

[ZekeArgo]

Thanks. Another problem:

The Leap of the Clouds class ability doesn't seem to make sense, given the 3.5 jump rules: "A third-level ninja spy's jumping distance (vertical or hoizontal) is not limited according to his height."

The Jump skill in 3.5 does make mention of "vertical reach" based on character size, but vertical reach doesn't set an upper limit on jump distance. It sets a lower limit (how far a character can simply reach without having to make a jump roll).

Can someone clarify the function that character height played in the 3.0 jump rule and advise me on how to modify this class ability to provide some advantage in 3.5? Or maybe the class ability can simply be scrapped? Note that the Acrobatics class ability has already provides the Ninja spy with a +10 competence bonus on jump checks (as well as balance, climb & tumble), a bonus which becomes +20 at higher levels.

I'd recomend to replace it with the "Leap of the Clouds" feat from PHBII, since really, having to line up 20' just to use your full jump check is kinda a pain.

[Roderick_BR]

According to the SRD, the limit is just for vertical jumps. For horizontal jumps you have no limit. If you have a good ranks/dex/misc bonus, starts running, and jump a large chasm, it'll depend on your dice roll, not your height. But if you want to jump up, you are limited by your height.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Either replace it with the ability to jump without a run up or just ignore it. The Ninja Spy already gets an obsene bonus to jump.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

But if you want to jump up, you are limited by your height.

No, you are not. The Vertical reach table is for determining if you can grab something above you after jumping. That is, you may have a jump check that says you jump 3 ft. in the air. That means your feet are three feet in the air, but, if you happen to be a Medium creature trying to grab an object floating 10 ft. in the air, you can still grab it because it is within your vertical reach (3 ft. + 8 ft. = 11 ft.).

But there's nothing that stops a Medium fella that manages to beat a DC 60 check from jumping 15 ft. in the air. Or for the epic fella that hits DC 600 to get a 150 ft. vertical jump.

In any case, to the Jump question at hand:

In 3.0, monks had the same class feature. When the restrictions on jumping were removed, it seems the designers decided it wasn't a worthwhile enough change to replace it with another class feature. That may be the case with your Ninja Spy.

However, if you feel otherwise, you could replace it with the Ninja's (Ninja from Complete Adventurer) Great Leap ability. That grants a +4 bonus to jump checks and the ninja is always considered to have a running start. It only works if unencumbered and wearing no armor.

Oh, and if Ninja Spy is from the actual Oriental Adventures book (rather than some supplement), you might want to take a look at Dragon #318. That issue includes the official 3.5 update to Oriental Adventures.

EDIT:
Found my copy of 318. Ninja Spy is not listed. If it is indeed from the Oriental Adventures book itself, that would indicate that the Innuendo issue you first mentioned would be the only thing needing correction. As a change to the skill system as a whole, replacing incidences of Innuendo with Bluff or Sense Motive is something of an assumed change, I suppose. In any case, that means the Ninja Spy, like the monk, would not get a replacement class ability.

However, I would still recommend getting that issue for yourself if you intend to continue working on Oriental Adventures conversion. It could save you a lot of work.

[Justin_Bacon]

The Leap of the Clouds class ability doesn't seem to make sense, given the 3.5 jump rules: "A third-level ninja spy's jumping distance (vertical or hoizontal) is not limited according to his height."

From a design perspective, here's the trick:

1. Magical bonuses to your Jump skill were incredibly cheap in 3.0.

2. But maximum jumps were limited by height.

3. So the Leap of the Clouds ability essentially gave monks the extremely cheap ability to leap incredibly long distances. The idea? Mimicking wushu like CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON.

I liked the flavor of this and was kinda bummed out that it disappeared from the game in 3.5. This is what I've replaced it with in my house rules:

MONKS: Leap of the Clouds
At 7th level, monks get Leap of the Clouds (Ex). Their maximum jump distance is no longer limited by their Strength score. Their Jump checks are made at x2.

At 12th level, monks get Greater Leap of the Clouds (Ex). The vertical height of their long jumps can be any height up to one-quarter of the horizontal distance (allowing them to skim the ground, for example). Their high jumps are treated as if they were long jumps, allowing the monk to jump in any direction as if they were making a horizontal level.

At 18th level, monks get Supreme Leap of the Clouds (Ex). Their Jump checks are made at x3.

Monks no longer receive the Abundant Step ability at 12th level.

This tends to twinge some people's "it's too powerful" meter. But consider the level at which PCs are essentially flying whenever the need calls for it: Being able to jump prodigiously is nifty ability, but for the typical party it's not that impressive.

[henebry]

Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the homebrew stuff from Justin Bacon. I do have Dragon #318, and I was writing specificially because the errata didn't mention any changes as being necessary for the Ninja Spy.

Justin B's comment suggests that the shift from 3.0 to 3.5 included a marked decrease in characters' ability to jump around a la Crouching Tiger. So if I don't want to go that route (and make corresponding changes to the monk as he has done), maybe I should decrease the Ninja Spy's jump bonus from +10 to something in the range of +4?

[the_tick_rules]

the Todd from scrubs had max ranks in innuendo, plus a few feats of skill focus.

[Matthew]

Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the homebrew stuff from Justin Bacon. I do have Dragon #318, and I was writing specificially because the errata didn't mention any changes as being necessary for the Ninja Spy.

Justin B's comment suggests that the shift from 3.0 to 3.5 included a marked decrease in characters' ability to jump around a la Crouching Tiger. So if I don't want to go that route (and make corresponding changes to the monk as he has done), maybe I should decrease the Ninja Spy's jump bonus from +10 to something in the range of +4?

Seems reasonable to me. It depends how you forsee it stacking with other modifiers. Have you taken a look at the Jump Spell?