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View Poll Results: Should this creature be included in the MITP?

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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Mist Rats
    Tiny Magical Beast
    Hit Dice: 2d10 (11 hp)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 30ft., burrow 5 ft., swim 15ft.
    AC: 18 (+3 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural) touch: 15, flat-footed: 15
    BAB/Grapple: +2/-9
    Attacks: Bite +7
    Damage: Bite 1d3-3
    Face/Reach: 2 1/2 ft.; 0 ft.
    Special Qualities: Dark-vision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, fast healing 1, cloudwalking, obscuring mist, gaseous form
    Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +0
    Abilities: Str 4, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 2
    Skills: Balance +4, Climb -3, Hide +15, Move Silently +6, +8 Swim
    Feats: Weapon FinesseB, Stealthy
    Climate/Terrain: Any land and cloud islands
    Organisation: Pack (2-16)
    Challenge Rating: 1
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: True Neutral
    Advancement: -

    You look ahead at the path in front of you, an shiver from the damp cold. Suddenly, your foot begins to hurt, then your leg, and your knee. The mist surrounding you slowly forms into menacing rats of unnatural size and substance. They approach slowly, their eyes glinting menacingly in the moonlight. Rats flood the mist as you pull out your sword to deal with the menaces.

    Mist rats appear to be large grey rats made out of insubstantial mist. They dwell in misty areas, often forged from some magical disaster, but they also inhabit substantial cloud islands, often plaguing the domains of cloud giants.

    Combat
    As with other rats, Mist rats attack with a vicious bite.
    Obscuring Mist (Sp): When a mist rat dies, its body dissipates, producing an effect identical to that of the obscuring mist spell at caster level 2nd.
    Gaseous Form (Sp): At will, a mist rat can assume a gaseous form, as per the spell. This effect operates at caster level 2nd. A mist rat generally uses this ability to sneak up on its enemies, disguised as mist, or to flee.
    Fast Healing (Ex): Because of their easily changed bodies, mist rats can heal very quickly.
    Cloudwalking: Due to its insubstantial nature, a mist rat can treat clouds as a solid walking surface. However, speed is reduced to 15 ft. when cloudwalking. Mist can also be walked upon, but it requires a DC 5 balance check ever round and speed is reduced to 5 ft.

    Familiar: A mist rat can be a sorcerer or wizard’s familiar with the Improved Familiar feat. All Wizard's with a Mist Rat familiar gain a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class.
    Summoning: A mist rat may be summoned using the spell Summon Monster I.
    Last edited by Vaynor; 2007-09-26 at 10:33 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Well....I wouldn't put it at CR 1. It can't...actually do anything. It's bite does no damage. It has no other attacks. This would be a stabfest for a first level party, not an easy challenge. I'd give it some kind of energy draining attack, or lower the CR to tiny.

    I like the idea though, and using it as a familiar seems handy. I like the idea of them plaguing cloud giants, funny.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    A very cool idea. I like it so far, although I'd like just a bit more fluff.

    I do, however, have a couple of minor issues. First, you might want to use the standard 3.5 layout, not the old 3e layout. Also, it's Will save is high. Magical beasts have Fort and Ref as good saves, so it's Will save should be +0. It should also have a standard feat in addition to its bonus feat.

    If you want the creature to be a familiar, then it should require the Improved Familiar feat. For one thing, the creature is stronger then most standard animals, and a +1 deflection bonus to AC is a pretty nice reason to get one. Not to mention the creature's natural fast healing makes it a lot more durable then any standard familiar.
    Last edited by Danu; 2007-04-23 at 12:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
    Well....I wouldn't put it at CR 1. It can't...actually do anything. It's bite does no damage. It has no other attacks. This would be a stabfest for a first level party, not an easy challenge. I'd give it some kind of energy draining attack, or lower the CR to tiny.

    I like the idea though, and using it as a familiar seems handy. I like the idea of them plaguing cloud giants, funny.
    Actually, it does. Damage is set at a minimum of 1 point. I upped it's armor class and changed it's strength. I'll make it CR 1/2 though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danu View Post
    A very cool idea. I like it so far, although I'd like just a bit more fluff.

    I do, however, have a couple of minor issues. First, you might want to use the standard 3.5 layout, not the old 3e layout. Also, it's Will save is high. Magical beasts have Fort and Ref as good saves, so it's Will save should be +0. It should also have a standard feat in addition to its bonus feat.

    If you want the creature to be a familiar, then it should require the Improved Familiar feat. For one thing, the creature is stronger then most standard animals, and a +1 deflection bonus to AC is a pretty nice reason to get one. Not to mention the creature's natural fast healing makes it a lot more durable then any standard familiar.
    Yah, I must've blanked out with the Will save. Changing it now.

    EDIT: Ok, I think it deserves the CR 1/2 now, if not CR 1. Also, these guys are found only in groups. So, the point is their AC is high enough so they're hard to kill but they still can't do much. It's just so many swarm ya they're hard to kill, doing a little bit of damage over an extended period of time.

    Also, gave them Imp. Natural Attack, so they get a d6 for their bite.
    Last edited by Vaynor; 2007-04-23 at 12:50 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Ah, 1d6-3 sounds better for something like this. I like it.

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    A few issues: the creature does not qualify for Improved Natural Attack; you may want to mark it as a bonus feat by using [sup]B[/sup], which comes out as B.

    Weapon Finesse no longer needs to be specialized in 3.5.

    The Special Attacks section lists an ability called "obscuring mist", but no such ability is found in the description. Assuming that you meant the Stinking Cloud ability to be this, I am also unsure why it is listed as a Special Attack.

    I think that the obscuring mist/stinking cloud and gaseous form abilities should be Sp instead of Ex, and should work like the spells they are named after, with a CL of 2. That might bump the CR up a little.

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Iames Osari View Post
    A few issues: the creature does not qualify for Improved Natural Attack; you may want to mark it as a bonus feat by using [sup]B[/sup], which comes out as B.

    Weapon Finesse no longer needs to be specialized in 3.5.

    The Special Attacks section lists an ability called "obscuring mist", but no such ability is found in the description. Assuming that you meant the Stinking Cloud ability to be this, I am also unsure why it is listed as a Special Attack.

    I think that the obscuring mist/stinking cloud and gaseous form abilities should be Sp instead of Ex, and should work like the spells they are named after, with a CL of 2. That might bump the CR up a little.
    Thanks, I always thought you needed to specialize it. Hmm. And I was going to do stinking cloud but decided on obscuring mist, must've forgotten to change it.

    EDIT: Changed.
    Last edited by Vaynor; 2007-04-23 at 09:23 AM.
    “Sometimes, immersed in his books, there would come to him
    the awareness of all that he did not know, of all that he had not read;
    and the serenity for which he labored was shattered as he realized the
    little time he had in life to read so much, to learn what he had to know.”
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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Weapon Finesse did need to be specialized in 3.0, but not in 3.5.

    And that's not quite what I meant wrt the abilities. Here...

    Obscuring Mist (Sp): When a mist rat dies, its body dissipates, producing an effect identical to that of the obscuring mist spell at caster level 2nd.
    Gaseous Form (Sp): At will, a mist rat can assume a gaseous form, as per the spell. This effect operates at caster level 2nd.
    Last edited by Lord Iames Osari; 2007-04-23 at 10:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Hrm. The obscuring mist and gaseous form might work better as supernatural abilities, rather then spell-like. It doesn't seem like the creature is actually "casting" them, which is the case of most spell-like abilities. The obscuring mist, for example, simply 'happens' when the rat dies.

    Also, a tiny creature does 1d3 damage with it's bite, so the Improved Natural Attack feat would only bump that up to a d4. Really, there's no reason to give the feat to the creature... just give it the Augmented Damage ability. Then you can set the damage dice as high as you like.

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Bump. Keep voting, people!

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Can you summon these creatures?

    Monster summoning 1,2 ?

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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Some comments and such; note that I haven't read the other feedback, so I might duplicate what others have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaynor View Post
    Initiative: +3 (Dex +3)
    You don't need to detail where the Init comes from. Or, in other words, drop the "(Dex +3)" from the line.

    Speed: 30ft., swim 15ft., burrow 5ft., cloudwalk 15 feet
    Three things here. First, after base speed, list the others in alphabetical order.

    Second, there's no such movement mode as "cloudwalk" and so it shouldn't appear on this line. Create a new special ability and detail in that section what it means. But it doesn't really belong here.

    Third is a cosmetic thing: put a space between the number and the "ft." abbreviation.

    AC: 18 (Dex +3, size +2, +3 deflection)
    Cosmetic change: the number goes before the word in the breakdown. So it should read (+3 Dex, +2 size, +3 deflection).

    Now, that said: Where's the deflection bonus coming from? They don't just happen - they have to have a source. Typically, a creature gets an ability mod (most often Charisma) as a deflection bonus. If you don't have a source, call it natural armor.

    Third: You're missing touch and flat-footed AC values. Touch is 15, flat-footed is also 15.

    Attacks: Bite +8
    Damage: Bite 1d3-3
    Above this section, you should list the BAB and Grapple values for the creature. BAB is +2, Grapple is a sucktastic -9 (+2 BAB, -8 size, -3 Strength).

    Also, I'm not getting +8 as the attack value. +2 BAB, +2 size, +3 Dex is a total of +7. Where's the other +1 coming from?

    Face/Reach: 1/2ft. by 2ft./5ft.
    "Face" is always a square. Also, I can't think of any other Tiny creature with 5 ft. reach. In my opinion, the face should be 2 1/2 ft., and the reach should be 0 ft.

    Special Qualities: Scent, Obscuring mist, gaseous form, fast healing 1
    Magical beasts have darkvision out to 60 ft. and low-light vision. You should include these, before scent.

    "Obscuring" should be lowercase.

    "obscuring mist" and "gaseous form" should be in italics, because they're spell-like abilities.

    Finally, the SQ line should list "senses" first (in alphabetical order), followed by the other abilities in alphabetical order. Yours, for example, should look like:

    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, fast healing 1, gaseous form, obscuring mist

    Skills: Balance +5, Climb -2, Hide +8, Move Silently +7
    I have a few things here. We'll start with the math type stuff.

    Being Tiny creatures, they receive a +8 bonus to Hide checks. You've not included it, obviously, since the total you have is +8.

    A 2 HD magical beast with a 2 Int should have a total of 5 skill points. If we back out the Stealthy feat and the ability modifiers we have:

    Balance +2, Climb +1, Hide +3, Move Silently +2

    That's 8 skill ranks spent. Am I missing something else I should've removed from one of the skills?

    Finally, on the "math" stuff: Your creature has a swim speed, so it has a +8 bonus to Swim checks that you should list.

    Suggestion type stuff next:

    I highly recommend you give them some racial skills, on top of the size bonus to Hide and bonus to Swim. In addition, I suggest you allow them to use the better of Strength or Dexterity for Climb and Swim checks. That way, it won't suck so bad. :)

    So, first sort out the skill ranks. Make sure you've only spent 5 skill points. Then look at the skills and think about what you want them to do. You can use racial bonuses to improve those skills that are a bit behind where you want them. I'd go no higher than +4 as a racial bonus, and no more than 3 skills.

    Feats: Weapon Finesse, StealthyB
    They don't qualify for Weapon Finesse, since it has a prereq of BAB +1. However, they do qualify for Stealthy; so just switch the bonus feat tag from Stealthy to Weapon Finesse and you'll be good to go.

    The forest is misty, very misty. You look ahead at the path in front of you, an shiver from the damp cold. Suddenly, your foot begins to hurt, then your leg, and your knee. The mist surrounding you slowly forms into menacing rats of unnatural size and substance. The approach slowly, their eyes glinting menacingly in the moonlight.
    Typo first: the underlined word looks like it should be "they" instead.

    You're making lots of assumptions about things here, and that's generally considered poor form. I still have bruises from one of the developers on a project when I did the same thing with a bunch of monsters.

    First, you're assuming setting by placing the "action" in a forest. That might be OK in this situation, but it would be a lot stronger if you could produce the flavor blurb without mentioning the forest.

    Second, you're assuming actions on the part of the PCs, and that's usually a big problem. You really can't ever assume the PCs do (or don't do) something. But here, you're assuming a lot. You assume they failed (or didn't try) a Knowledge (arcana) check to recognize the rats for what they are; you're assuming they failed (or didn't try) Listen and Spot checks to know something was up; and you're assuming they have a lower Init score than the rats.

    Lastly, and an equally big problem, your flavor text is inflicting damage to the PCs. That's also a big "no no" in design (to use a technical term ;) ).

    This little italicized blurb should describe what the PCs see, hear, taste, smell, etc. It should be kept to no more than 3 sentences; and it shouldn't have any interaction with the party - positive or negative.


    Your abilities are all fine; they're well described, and the ability is rooted in the flavor of the critter.

    Familiar: A mist rat can be a Wizard’s familiar with the Improved Familiar feat. All Wizard's with a Mist Rat familiar gain a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class.
    What level and alignment?

    The word "wizard" should be lowercase.

    You might want to consider changing "wizard" to "sorcerer or wizard" to be consistent with the rules.

    ***

    These are good, in my opinion. They're a bit tough for just being rats (a 2 HD rat? yikes - must be from New York City!), but I think they still fall into the CR 1 range. You might want to play test it a bit, though, just to make sure.
    John Ling
    Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer

    Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Mist Rat (MITP II)

    Cute poofy rats get my vote.... *grabs one away from its mother and runs off to rear it as a pet...*
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