Tolkienizing D&D

[Kami2awa]

Reading this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...nizing-D-amp-D

...made me think how you would make the D&D world more Tolkien-like, rather than less.

This is not intended to be a rebuttal to that thread - it would be equally fun to have a D&D setting that has as few Tolkien influences as possible.

Anyway...

... the power level is lower. 20th-level characters would be the domain of the Valar or most powerful Maiar, who go around doing things like making the stars and uprooting whole islands.
... far fewer primary casters, possibly none as PCs. Magic is less obvious, most of the time.
... a lot of monsters from other settings go. Most aberrations aren't particularly Tolkien-esque, being more sci-fi or Lovecraftian. Trolls don't regenerate - the things called trolls in Middle-Earth are more like D&D ogres. They and most other evil creatures have an aversion (or even vulnerability) to sunlight. Creatures inspired by classical (Greek/Roman) myth like griffons or centaurs, or non-Northern-European myth in general, aren't around either. Good-aligned dragons, for example, are unheard of.
... elves are taller. Otherwise they are roughly the same, other= than being unaging and never dying of disease or old age (OK, that's a really big difference). They don't mix with humans or other species much unless they really have to.
... half-elves are... complicated. They have to choose between being fully human or fully elven, so half-elves as D&D portrays them are unlikely.
... powerful magic items are really rare, but minor magic items are even more common (elves seem to have magic rope, magic cloaks, magic swords, and magic bread as pretty much standard issue equipment). Even minor magic items (especially weapons) have histories and reputations behind them. Magic items also have more interesting powers than a bonus to hit, such as the power to harm otherwise invulnerable undead creatures or to light up in the presence of enemies.
... everywhere you go you trip over the history of the world, which is organised in Ages. The First Age was inherently more fairy-tale or mythological than the current one, and magic grows less powerful with each Age. There were Golden Ages in the past and people now live amongst the constructions or indeed ruins from those times.
... prophesy happens, and the prophesies come true, but not quite as you'd expect. Destinies, oaths and bloodlines are vitally important and may be associated with real, tangible powers.
... dwarves... are exactly the same. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...sAreAllTheSame
... some animals come in both normal and intelligent, talking varieties, often giant-sized in the latter case. The Great Eagles and the Wargs are the most prominent examples.
... vampires and werewolves exist, but how they work is not clear (Tolkien's werewolves are spirits bound in wolf form, and don't seem able to shapeshift.)
... dragons come in red, red, and red, except for Ancalagon the Black (who is fire-breathing anyway).
... by the Age the game is set in, the Gods are broadly non-interventionist.
... the afterlife is, especially for humans and dwarves, is a bit of a mystery. Elves get to reincarnate and remember it, but only their own part. You can't generally resurrect the dead, and nor can you shift to other planes (though elven ships can sail to Valinor).

I'm aware Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff in his life, and some of it probably contradicts this... and more of it will contradict the contradictions. But overall, D&D has diverged quite a lot from Tolkien even from its very beginning, and it takes a lot of changes to revert it back.

[Maglubiyet]

...goblins are just degenerate Orcs, who themselves were created by corrupting and torturing elves
...race mixing among the "Good" races is unusual - there is much fear, distrust, animosity, and prejudice between Men, Elves, and Dwarves
...demons are not extra-planar beings, but ancient evils from another Age, lurking in the dark corners of the world (sort of sounds Lovecraftian)
...Perform (Oratory and Sing) is a class skill for all classes
...Herbology/Herbal Medicine is a skill
...religion is unknown largely hidden in the background -- certainly no Divine casters (except maybe Druids?)

[Eisenheim]

The question, to my mind, is what part of tolkien you want to emulate. One of the trickiest things about emulating the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in D&D, and to a lesser extent in any RPG, is that those narratives have huge gulfs in character power baked in as one of the main themes: Merry and Pippin and Sam and Frodo are exceptional and heroic hobbits, but they are simply less able to handle a large number of challenges than other members of the fellowship. I would probably try to do a game aiming to mimic those novels with FATE, which does character asymmetry somewhat better.

If I was going for Tolkien in D&D, I would set it in the second age, when the heroes of the Noldor and Edain fought against Morgoth. This is the time in Middle Earth's history that much of the Silmarillion is about, and it has space for incredibly powerful heroes fighting incredibly powerful monsters. You could very easily run a 2nd age game from 10th to 20th level. Magic would need a look, but I think it could be worked out.

[Talakeal]

The question, to my mind, is what part of tolkien you want to emulate. One of the trickiest things about emulating the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in D&D, and to a lesser extent in any RPG, is that those narratives have huge gulfs in character power baked in as one of the main themes: Merry and Pippin and Sam and Frodo are exceptional and heroic hobbits, but they are simply less able to handle a large number of challenges than other members of the fellowship. I would probably try to do a game aiming to mimic those novels with FATE, which does character asymmetry somewhat better.

If I was going for Tolkien in D&D, I would set it in the second age, when the heroes of the Noldor and Edain fought against Morgoth. This is the time in Middle Earth's history that much of the Silmarillion is about, and it has space for incredibly powerful heroes fighting incredibly powerful monsters. You could very easily run a 2nd age game from 10th to 20th level. Magic would need a look, but I think it could be worked out.

I dont mean to give you a hard time, but Morgoth was defeated at the end of the first age, the villain in the second age was Sauron. I assume you meant first age?

[Eisenheim]

You're right. I always think there's an age boundary between the creation of the world, and then all the silmarillion stuff with the elves, but it's not an official 'age'

[Eisenheim]

the time I am thinking of is basically that between the rising of the sun and the war of wrath. I think that's the best part of Middle Earth's continuity for larger-than-life D&D heroes. It's also the best time for equality between the races, since the heroes of the Edain really play on a level equal to the prince's of the Noldor in many cases, which really isn't the case for men, even Numenorians, and elves in the War of the Ring.

[Keltest]

I think its important to note that the minor elven magic items like the rope Sam uses aren't considered "enchanted" by the elves so much as very well crafted. The elves get the maximum potential out of the stuff they make, though there is certainly an element of magic in some of their stuff, certainly.

The cloaks that the fellowship get in Lorien for example aren't magically camouflaging them, theyre just woven and dyed so well that looking at them tricks the eye all on their own.

[nooblade]

Here's a timeline:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ages_of_Arda

So, the first age ends with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, the second age ends with Isildur fighting Sauron, the third age ends with the War of the Ring.


I don't think there's any Tolkien "cleric" powers which leads to issues with healing I suppose. Certainly the things that mattered most as far as magic went were the magic items.

Turin's story focused more on fighting, but even then it was mostly leadership and tactics IIRC. Perhaps players could be tempted into foolishness like Turin building a bridge to Nargothrond?

NPCs could take brash action too, like Feanor's sacred oath with vengeance and hatred at the start of the Silmarillion.

And when people die, they go to the Halls of Mandos. Elves could leave, but I doubt they could find some way back to Middle Earth after death.


Might as well make up some different setting. Then you won't get sued by Tolkien estate! Haha.

[Kami2awa]

I think its important to note that the minor elven magic items like the rope Sam uses aren't considered "enchanted" by the elves so much as very well crafted. The elves get the maximum potential out of the stuff they make, though there is certainly an element of magic in some of their stuff, certainly.

The cloaks that the fellowship get in Lorien for example aren't magically camouflaging them, theyre just woven and dyed so well that looking at them tricks the eye all on their own.

However, one bite of lembas bread can sustain a grown man for a day (or a hobbit for maybe half an hour :) ) and elven rope only unties when you want it to, and burns evil creatures tied up with it (which is a scary idea, really). There's clearly something a little odd going on there.

[Kami2awa]

I don't think there's any Tolkien "cleric" powers which leads to issues with healing I suppose. Certainly the things that mattered most as far as magic went were the magic items.

There is the Cordial of Miravor, which is more a supernatural pick-me-up than healing potion, but could probably function as one mechanics-wise. Elrond is also a master of healing, which like most elvish powers is probably somewhere between normal medicine and magic.

[Jay R]

I wouldn't set my world in Middle-Earth, because the history is available to all players, but an important aspect of the stories is that only the Wise are likely to know about ancient history that would affect the world today.

For instance, the PCs shouldn't know the history of Silmarils, Rings, etc.

I think its important to note that the minor elven magic items like the rope Sam uses aren't considered "enchanted" by the elves so much as very well crafted. The elves get the maximum potential out of the stuff they make, though there is certainly an element of magic in some of their stuff, certainly.

The cloaks that the fellowship get in Lorien for example aren't magically camouflaging them, theyre just woven and dyed so well that looking at them tricks the eye all on their own.

Correct. I would have masterwork items from the elves function as what we think of as low-level magic items, and masterwork mithril from the dwarves would be low-level magic armor. [I might make mithril the only magic armor.]

...demons are not extra-planar beings, but ancient evils from another Age, lurking in the dark corners of the world (sort of sounds Lovecraftian)

Actually, they would be the same race as the wizards, but corrupted into their current forms, as orcs are corrupted from the elves, and trolls are corrupted from the ents.

[Keltest]

However, one bite of lembas bread can sustain a grown man for a day (or a hobbit for maybe half an hour :) ) and elven rope only unties when you want it to, and burns evil creatures tied up with it (which is a scary idea, really). There's clearly something a little odd going on there.

Entirely true. What was considered "magic" in the Tolkien universe was... ill defined, at best. Wizards like Gandalf did magic, for sure, but elves like Elrond, by my understanding, just had such a good knowledge of the universe that they could ask it to break the rules when they had to, and the universe listened.

[Jay R]

However, ... elven rope only unties when you want it to, and burns evil creatures tied up with it (which is a scary idea, really).

Evil creatures? We don't know that. It burned a single corrupted creature who had too much Ring influence in him, and who could no longer stand sunlight.

One possible explanation is that the elves worked the essence of sunlight into their rope. There are other explanations that could be invented. We only know that it burned Gollum. In any events, orcs could hold the elven cloak, since they took it from Frodo.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Evil creatures? We don't know that. It burned a single corrupted creature who had too much Ring influence in him, and who could no longer stand sunlight.

One possible explanation is that the elves worked the essence of sunlight into their rope. There are other explanations that could be invented. We only know that it burned Gollum. In any events, orcs could hold the elven cloak, since they took it from Frodo.

No, the stuff crafted by the elves was so high quality that it became magic through its sheer enhancement bonus, essentially. Anything crafted by the Elves was also fair, which harmed all evil creatures who beheld them. It's more or less canon.

[Eisenheim]

I would certainly think that in D&D, all the named weapons of the Tolkien universe would be modeled as magic items, and quite possibly some other things as well, the blades from the barrow, while not named, were, IIRC, called out as being enchanted with spells, which was why Merry stabbing the Lich King was so effective.
It all comes down to how magic manifests in that universe, which is much more in terms of objects of power and mental might than blasts of fire and lightning.

[Takewo]

Entirely true. What was considered "magic" in the Tolkien universe was... ill defined, at best. Wizards like Gandalf did magic, for sure, but elves like Elrond, by my understanding, just had such a good knowledge of the universe that they could ask it to break the rules when they had to, and the universe listened.

I think it's rather differently understood by the different peoples from the Middle Earth. When the Company is in Lórien, they are told that what they call "magic" is natural for the elves, or something like that, can't remember properly. But there is a sense through all the books that magic is part of the elven life, they relate to it naturally, whereas the other races do not.

In fact, now that I put it in that way, it makes me think of the wizard-sorcerer dichotomy.

[Eisenheim]

All of these concerns are really why the latter part of the first age is ideal for Tolkien in D&D: there's much more clear and overt magic, as well as mighty heroes shaping the destiny of the realm, without needing a whole army to do it much of the time.

[Incanur]

Great heroes from the First Age do indeed resemble higher-level 3.x D&D characters in certain respects. Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth would be tough to model below 15th level at the least, especially with Morgoth's hammer creating craters where it fell. Folks like Fingolfin and Turin could rout entire armies, at least when angered.

A big problem with 3.x D&D for modeling anything like Tolkien's world is quick combat tends to be. It varies, but important characters in Arda tend to battle it out at some length. Gandalf and the Balrog fought for ten days. Ten days! Do you know many rounds that is? In 3.x D&D, even a few minutes makes for a long combat.

[YossarianLives]

Great heroes from the First Age do indeed resemble higher-level 3.x D&D characters in certain respects. Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth would be tough to model below 15th level at the least, especially with Morgoth's hammer creating craters where it fell. Folks like Fingolfin and Turin could rout entire armies, at least when angered.

A big problem with 3.x D&D for modeling anything like Tolkien's world is quick combat tends to be. It varies, but important characters in Arda tend to battle it out at some length. Gandalf and the Balrog fought for ten days. Ten days! Do you know many rounds that is? In 3.x D&D, even a few minutes makes for a long combat.

144000 rounds to be precise.

[Keltest]

144000 rounds to be precise.

That's what Gandalf gets for using a sword as a wizard.

[goto124]

I think that's long for any tabletop game. Doing this on a computer isn't much better 0-0

[Jay R]

Gandalf and the Balrog fought for ten days. Ten days! Do you know many rounds that is? In 3.x D&D, even a few minutes makes for a long combat.

An offstage battle between NPCs. This is flavor, not mechanics.

[Takewo]

Yup, the siege of Minas Tirith took about three days, and the Helm's Deep was a bit longer than a night.

[Telonius]

To Tolkienize D&D, you would need to completely rework the magic system. Make Truenamers and Bards the most powerful casters. All of Arda was created from song; that has to be reflected in the mechanics.

Remove almost all healing magic from the game, except possibly for Elves and Elf-descended races. "Cleric" is probably not a thing.

If you're going Third Age, the setting is ultra-low-"magic," at least as most modern gamers understand the term. An enchanted blade is something they used to know how to make a thousand years or more in the past. If it's First or Second Age, you have more leeway for magic items, but they're still pretty darn rare.

Accept that races just aren't equally powered. Elves are incredibly powerful, don't age, and have a bunch of inherent stuff that other races just don't. Bloodlines matter. A lot.

There are some monsters that just can't be defeated combat by anything short of a genuine, capital-H Hero complete with royal lineage. If you do not have (at minimum) Elvish blood, you are not going to survive an encounter with a Balrog unless it wants you to.

[Mando Knight]

... half-elves are... complicated. They have to choose between being fully human or fully elven, so half-elves as D&D portrays them are unlikely.

Existing D&D Half-Elves are basically closer to Aragorn than they are to Elrond Half-Elven... Men blessed with a part of the eternal grace and wisdom of the Elves, with long lives but still mortal.

[Kalmageddon]

I would disagree that D&D Elves and Tolkien's Elves have anything in common beside generic appearence.
Elves in Tolkien's mythos are almost always better than humans. Stronger, more charsimatic, wiser... This is less true if we talk about the "dark elves", but in general elves should be more powerful.

Half elves don't exist in the D&D sense, as far as I know. Meaning, the very few cases of elves and humans mating have produced offspring that had to "choose" their nature and become either humans or elves. There is nothing in between.

[TheCountAlucard]

Re: Elves being measurably better than humans: Depends on if you can Chaos Shuffle all those useless racial proficiency feats or not. Having three feats above and beyond a similarly-built human is pretty darn valuable.

[Dienekes]

Let's see, I don't think you covered hit points.

Generally they shouldn't advance beyond your starting hp. Even Smaug, the dragon and most fearsome creature in the mythos until you get to Sauron and maybe the Balrog was killed with 1 arrow that ignored it's armor (admittedly it was a deadly black arrow, but it's unclear what that means, could be it was a 1 hit kill arrow, could be it was just enchanted to be more accurate). I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.

The most impressive feat of hit points in the series is Boromir's death by many arrows, which can be modeled through armor as DR and unlucky rolls on the part of the orcs.

Elves, dwarves, and humans would work differently as well, mostly because Tolkien doesn't run on attributes. The elves for instance are greater than man. How is vague. I don't remember them displaying significantly more strength than man, or being noticeably faster. Boromir and Aragorn manage to keep up with Legolas pretty well throughout LotR, and the Numenoreans (admittedly they are greater than the average man as well) were considered to be more powerful than the elves for awhile. But the elves were still considered greater, more graceful, more powerful in general. Their works of art were greater, their weapons were greater, and, especially in the Silmarillion, their mistakes, idiocies, and arrogance blew anything the humans did completely out of the water. I don't know how to model that, other than just giving the elves more levels than humans get, but not in combat classes (unless they're names are Ecthelion of the Fountain, or Glorfindel). Dwarves are strange as well, as they are specifically stated to not be wise, dismissing elves and generally being bigoted against them (which admittedly the elves are right back at them, but I don't think Tolkien ever calls them out on this) but they were the ones who were actually resistant to the rings of power, which is generally seen as a facet of Wisdom.

If I was to model them it would be:
Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Cha
Type of elf: At level 1 choose Sindar or Noldor, Sindar elves gain +2 Int and +2 Wis, Noldor elves get proficiency with longbows or something. I may have these two reversed though, I always get the elven races wrong.
Start with 2 or 3 levels of an NPC class
Elven Eyes: Darkvision, +5 racial bonus to Search and Spot checks

Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Dwarven Mental Resistance: +5 racial bonus to Will Saves against magic
Darkvision
Start with 1 level of an NPC class
+2 racial bonus to appraise checks
+2 racial bonus to Craft (jewelry), Craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Stonework)

[CantigThimble]

Let's see, I don't think you covered hit points.

Generally they shouldn't advance beyond your starting hp. Even Smaug, the dragon and most fearsome creature in the mythos until you get to Sauron and maybe the Balrog was killed with 1 arrow that ignored it's armor (admittedly it was a deadly black arrow, but it's unclear what that means, could be it was a 1 hit kill arrow, could be it was just enchanted to be more accurate). I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.

The most impressive feat of hit points in the series is Boromir's death by many arrows, which can be modeled through armor as DR and unlucky rolls on the part of the orcs.

Well, that's not Tolkien, that's all books/movies/shows. If you want HP to work like it does in media then you need a completely different system, or just say that HP also represents near misses and your strength being depleted.

[LibraryOgre]

Accept that races just aren't equally powered. Elves are incredibly powerful, don't age, and have a bunch of inherent stuff that other races just don't. Bloodlines matter. A lot.

FWIW, the old ICE MERP game included "backgrounds"; humans got several, which could manifest as extra skill ranks, special abilties, affinities will certain creatures, even magical equipment (one example was a shield that would always float), while elves, more (or less, I can't recall) tied to Destiny got only a few.