afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[atemu1234]

What would have to happen to cause the Blood War to reach an endpoint? I'm not asking for a comprehensive list, as I suppose there is no discrete set of answers, but what are some examples? Who stands poised to win, and what would happen afterwards?

[WalkingTheShade]

What would have to happen to cause the Blood War to reach an endpoint? I'm not asking for a comprehensive list, as I suppose there is no discrete set of answers, but what are some examples? Who stands poised to win, and what would happen afterwards?

One possible answer, if one accepts the hypothesis that the Yugoloths pull the strings, would be: Yugoloths moving to the next phase of their plan. This in turn may have something to do with the three towers they are building on the lower plans.
I'm sure there are other answers.

[deathbymanga]

One possible answer, if one accepts the hypothesis that the Yugoloths pull the strings, would be: Yugoloths moving to the next phase of their plan. This in turn may have something to do with the three towers they are building on the lower plans.
I'm sure there are other answers.

what three towers?

[Tzardok]

what three towers?

The yugoloth have two towers: The tower of Kin-Oin in the Grey Waste, where the Oinoloth, the lord over the yugoloth in the Grey Waste resides, and the Tower Arcane in Gehenna, which is the repository of all knowledge the yugoloth amassed, the centre of the power of the arcanoloth. They try to build a third tower in Carceri, but the continuous attacks of the gereleth keep them from making much progress. There are rumors that those three towers would be able to shift the balance of power to the yugoloth or to evil in general, should they ever be finished.

EDIT: I personaly don't believe the yugoloth to be the architects behind the war. That's 'loth propaganda (which they might even believe themselves). Sure, they manipulate it, but who doesn't?

[deathbymanga]

Huh, interesting, Is that tower similar to the giant Throne situated in Hades that currently has no ruler in it because there's no Yugoloth able to amass enough support to take it?

Also, I thought I read somewhere that the Underworld in Hades is actually connected (or at least used to be) to Olympus via the Olympian Pantheon). Was this ever true? I'm trying to find the source again, but I felt Id just ask first

[Tzardok]

Firstly, yes, that is the throne of the Oinoloth in the highest chamber of Kin-Oin. No, it isn't empty, there is an Oinoloth with a complicated name I always forget.

Secondly, yes, Mt. Olymp is a planar pathway, similar to the Styx (just a mountain, not a river), that connects the divine realms of the Olympian pantheon (or at least the layers those realms are situated on).

[Jowgen]

I'm interested in how comparatively techno-magically advanced you consider Spelljammers and Elemental-bound Eberron vessels to be.

Both can create massive flying ships. An elemental Airship can be huge compared to e.g. a Nautiloid (if the Flow of Fresh Brains adventure and Astral Encounters is to be believed), but it arguably only works because of the bouyancy of Soarwood, which is a moot point in the gravity-less void of space. Binding an Elemental is arugably more invovled than creating a spell-jamming helm (not to mention dangerous), but it can't achieve Spelljamming speed or create a gravity plane.

The point of my questions is to try and get a sense of how hard it would be for creatures who possess one type of magi-technology to master and incorporate the other into their workings (e.g. Illithids learning to power their Dreadnaughts with bound elementals or Eberron gnomes giving their Airships spelljamming capacities).

On a semi-related note, I recently read the Dragon article on Clockwork horrors and how they supposedly use captured Neogi-ships to take over planets. Did the Clockwork horrors feature in the original spelljammer or are they a 3rd edition thing? Any theories on why they don't/can't just build their own ships?

Lastly, I was hoping you'd be willing to share your take on the inter-sphere pecking order of space-faring factions. From what I gathered, the order seems to be kinda like: Illithids > Elves > Clockwork Horrors > Humans > Dwarves > Beholders > Xixchil > other Demi-human races. How wrong am I?

[JoeyTheNeko]

what kind of offer would suffice to get tiamat to abandon her post as the guardian of the gate into dis and serve a similar function on a different plane? would bahumats decapitated head suffice?

[Coidzor]

what kind of offer would suffice to get tiamat to abandon her post as the guardian of the gate into dis and serve a similar function on a different plane? would bahumats decapitated head suffice?

If you can kill Bahamut, you can kill Tiamat, so she might be happy he's dead, but throwing his severed head on the floor is probably also going to be a threat.

[Alea]

I rather gather that “King of Hell” isn’t really that impressive a title, on the deific scale. Asmodeus is incredibly powerful, and he got that power by being king of hell, but his personal power doesn’t come with the title. Asmodeus is impressive because he’s Asmodeus, King of Hell. Remember, Baator was a nearly-empty backwater when he took it over. Almost everything that Hell is, and literally everything that the “King of Hell” title is, comes from Asmodeus. Someone else with the title isn’t nearly as impressive.

...particularly if it looks like his gaining the title is actually some temporary machination on Asmodeus’s part, and let’s face it: it would be really hard to take it in such a way that people felt sure wasn’t somehow a scheme that plays into Asmodeus’s favor.

[Mr Adventurer]

The Ethereal and Prime are co-existent. What sort of "bleed", if any, does the Prime experience from what's happening on the Ethereal? If an Ethereal creature moves through you, do you feel anything? Could you? If alien wizards build a crooked tower of science in the middle of your farm, do you experience any resonance? That sort of thing. And if this does happen, does it go the other way, with Prime events and locations affecting the atmosphere and resonance of the corresponding Ethereal?

[Tzardok]

If you go by the rules as written, no. The Ethereal can only be perceived by the use of divination, and can only be affected by force effects which exist simultanously on both planes if used on the Material. The other way round you can perceive the Material any time, but can't affect it in any way. (MotP stated that the Ethereal takes lesser elemental traits at a few places depending on the Material (like a minor fire trait at the ethereal mirror of a vulcano), but those are the exception, not the rule.)

[afroakuma]

I have a single question. Is the Phoenix immortal? The way immolation works it seems impossible to actually kill it.

Going by what the ability says, it's an action electively used by the phoenix when it is nearing death. Since it doesn't specify an automatic trigger, therefore, I would suggest that if you could kill a phoenix before it got that action off then it would stay dead.

What was the goal of Chaos in the War?

To repeal the cosmology.

Ditto for Law, what did they seek to achieve?

To stabilize the cosmology and whelm the forces

What measurable gains did Law actually make with their (less than perfect) victory over Chaos?

*points to the Great Wheel*

You know, grinding them down into ennui and oblivion, making their forces fracture and turn on one another if they get too big/successful?

No. Whether they do that to themselves, now...

what god or gods would be most likely to disrupt battors order and try to take asmodous's place as king of hell?

Gargauth. And he's not going to succeed.

also, how did asmodous obtain his ruby rod?

Unknown. Presumably he made it.

There's a day/night cycle in the Outlands, but no sun, moon or stars. So what does that look like?

Unspecified. I'd imagine that the sky is just "generally lit" and fades to darkness, which would cast shadows only straight down for the most part. If you wanted to do something weird-cool, and depending on your interpretation of the Outlands' place in the Great Wheel, you could have the sky lit by a form of cove lighting emanating from the sixteen cardinal points around the "rim," each contributing its own spectrum to a bright whole but dimming to their respective elements during the night (a dark grey over the horizon toward Hades, a lurking red toward Baator etc.)

What would have to happen to cause the Blood War to reach an endpoint?

The fighting would have to stop.

what three towers?

The Tower of the Arcanaloths in Gehenna, Khin-Oin the Wasting Tower in Hades, and the incomplete Tower of Incarnate Pain in Carceri.

Huh, interesting, Is that tower similar to the giant Throne situated in Hades that currently has no ruler in it because there's no Yugoloth able to amass enough support to take it?

The throne is occupied. Mydianchlarus currently sits upon the Siege Perilous.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that the Underworld in Hades is actually connected (or at least used to be) to Olympus via the Olympian Pantheon). Was this ever true? I'm trying to find the source again, but I felt Id just ask first

It is. The terminus of the planar pathway that is Mount Olympus can be found there.

I'm interested in how comparatively techno-magically advanced you consider Spelljammers and Elemental-bound Eberron vessels to be.

Why do people put Eberron in front of me.

Binding an Elemental is arugably more invovled than creating a spell-jamming helm (not to mention dangerous)

Considering that landbound races have done one but not the other, wanna run the evidence for this by me? Because the only way most people get their hands on a spelljamming helm is to buy it from a shady space consortium that doesn't discuss the crafting process.

Now if you're talking about some 3.X-era crafting rules that some hole of a human being decided were fine to print out... yeah no.

The point of my questions is to try and get a sense of how hard it would be for creatures who possess one type of magi-technology to master and incorporate the other into their workings

I would say, then, that binding is much easier than astroengineering. Though I don't know that a bound elemental would succeed as the fuel source for a helm. Not for long, anyway.

On a semi-related note, I recently read the Dragon article on Clockwork horrors and how they supposedly use captured Neogi-ships to take over planets. Did the Clockwork horrors feature in the original spelljammer or are they a 3rd edition thing?

They are original to Spelljammer, yes.

Any theories on why they don't/can't just build their own ships?

1) They lack imagination and creativity.
2) The only helms they have access to are already attached to those ships.

Lastly, I was hoping you'd be willing to share your take on the inter-sphere pecking order of space-faring factions.

I have no take. I may concoct one at some point but at the moment I don't have the time.

what kind of offer would suffice to get tiamat to abandon her post as the guardian of the gate into dis and serve a similar function on a different plane?

...what?

No.

[Clistenes]

The Ethereal and Prime are co-existent. What sort of "bleed", if any, does the Prime experience from what's happening on the Ethereal? If an Ethereal creature moves through you, do you feel anything? Could you? If alien wizards build a crooked tower of science in the middle of your farm, do you experience any resonance? That sort of thing. And if this does happen, does it go the other way, with Prime events and locations affecting the atmosphere and resonance of the corresponding Ethereal?

In some editions (can't remember which one, it is difficult to keep track), ethereal beings can't pass through living beings. So a wall covered in ivy is a barrier in the Ethereal Plane.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you go by the rules as written, no. The Ethereal can only be perceived by the use of divination, and can only be affected by force effects which exist simultanously on both planes if used on the Material. The other way round you can perceive the Material any time, but can't affect it in any way. (MotP stated that the Ethereal takes lesser elemental traits at a few places depending on the Material (like a minor fire trait at the ethereal mirror of a vulcano), but those are the exception, not the rule.)

In some editions (can't remember which one, it is difficult to keep track), ethereal beings can't pass through living beings. So a wall covered in ivy is a barrier in the Ethereal Plane.

Ok, thanks both. I'd probably not run it that way myself, but hey ho.

On that 'ivy wall' thing, that's weird - not like ivy is much of a barrier if it's right in front of you. I wonder what that experience is like.

[Jowgen]

I know ancient D&D-canon history is screwy and setting specific, but is there ever mention of an individual who could be credited with the creation of the first phylactery and thus Lich?

[JoeyTheNeko]

I got a similar question, but with vampires.

[Malimar]

Question that came up in another thread and I'd be interested to get a more authoritative take on it:

• In some canons (and Earth religions, but we can't talk about that), celestials and fiends and so on have the free will to behave contrary to their nature, they just generally don't (every day, celestials choose not to commit any evil, just like good humans). Like humans, they're tempted every day, they just rise above the temptation.
• In other canons (and religions), celestials and fiends are incapable of committing acts contrary to their nature. Your average celestial is no more capable of committing an evil act than you are capable of eating the sun. Most celestials are never tempted to evil because evil never even occurs to them as a possibility.

Which is generally true in afrocanon? (If the latter, there are obviously exceptions: that one succubus paladin, all fallen celestials, Asmodeus. We're talking the general rule here.)

[WalkingTheShade]

inb4 "both".

[afroakuma]

Have a slaad.

[Tzardok]

Have a slaad.

Holy... How did you find that thing?
It burns in my eyes... or is this just exhaustion?

[Coidzor]

Holy... How did you find that thing?
It burns in my eyes... or is this just exhaustion?

Both, really.

[Werephilosopher]

Why do ghosts turn up on the Ethereal, and not the Astral? Wouldn't the Astral make more sense, since dead souls pass through it to get to the afterlife? What is it about the Ethereal that draws in the souls of ghosts?

[Tzardok]

I don't know the canon answer but my speculation is based on two facts:
1. The Ethereal is in some way more entwined with the Material than the Astral, as can be seen by the fact that you can see the Material from there.
2. Just as the Astral has been described as the realm of thought, the Ethereal is called the realm of potential. Its substance can be used to create facsimiles of many things.

Now imagine a soul that can't or won't pass on. It resists the pull to the Astral and stays on the Material. In that condition it is utterly incapable of doing anything. So instictually it reaches for the Ethereal and creates an imitation of its old body out of its substance. And that's why they are native on both planes, as their soul is bound to the Material but their body is made of Ethereal stuff.

And now you know.

[WalkingTheShade]

Have a slaad.

Thanks! That's a great image! I'm definitively going to show it to players, as a visual aid, next time they encounter a slaad. (Last one was a mud slaad some Xaositect presented as a lawyer to them, while they were looking for Sly Nye in the Hive ward.)

[deathbymanga]

what's the difference between a Sepulchral Thief and a Lich? Besides how a Lich is intentionally planned and a ST is accidental?

[WalkingTheShade]

Disregarding the fact that it's like asking "what's the difference between a mouse and elephant besides the elephant being very big and the mouse very small?", one could answer that they have very different abilities.

[deathbymanga]

Disregarding the fact that it's like asking "what's the difference between a mouse and elephant besides the elephant being very big and the mouse very small?", one could answer that they have very different abilities.

Reanimation (Su): The greed and malevolence that animate the sepulchral thief cannot be dispersed through mere physical destruction. When a sepulchral thief is destroyed, its life force immediately inhabits the single most valuable item it has on its possession (often but not always a weapon). Unless the item is destroyed or mystically cleansed, the sepulchral thief reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. Casting dispel evil or hallow on the item destroys the thief’s essence if the caster makes a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the sepulchral thief’s HD. Destroying the item also destroys the inhabiting essence. If the thief has two or more items of equal value as its “most valuable” possessions, it inhabits a weapon in favor of any other item; otherwise, choose randomly. So long as the sepulchral thief inhabits an item, that item radiates moderate necromancy and evil, in addition to its normal auras.

This makes the ST a Rogue equivalent of a Lich. Both have attained Immortality by bonding their soul to an object. The only difference is that a Lich's soul is trapped in the object forever, while an ST collects their "essence" after they reform.

Both types of undead have achieves a similar kind of immortality, so I'm just trying to figure out what is going on behind the scenes here that makes one different than the other

[Tzardok]

This makes the ST a Rogue equivalent of a Lich. Both have attained Immortality by bonding their soul to an object. The only difference is that a Lich's soul is trapped in the object forever, while an ST collects their "essence" after they reform.

Both types of undead have achieves a similar kind of immortality, so I'm just trying to figure out what is going on behind the scenes here that makes one different than the other

That is one similarity (one they share with a few other undead like ghosts, death knights and dry liches). The touch attack and the immunities against cold and electricity are other similarities. But if you don't focus on those superficial similarities, you will find out that they have almost nothing in common. One is a rogue, the other is a spellcaster. One is sorrounded by an aura of obscuration, the other has a paralysing touch attack. One has shadow abilities, the other has a whole set of immunities. One is nearly always a petty, cruel thief, the other can have nearly any personality and doesn't even have to be evil. One is kind of wimpy, the other is one of the most powerful kinds of undead. And so on.

[Dalmosh]

How do Jann generally feel about Prime humans?
What do Jann communities generally get up to on the Prime?