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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    Yes, I know there's a thread on this already, but it seems to be too old to post in

    I was running D&D 3.5 for my brother, and I decided he should fight a group of adventurers, one of which was a fang dragon in disguise.
    Looking at the fang dragon's block more closely after the encounter, I saw something horrifying.

    Wyrmling fang dragon. CR2. CONSTITUTION DRAIN 1d2 with an additional d6 bite damage and d4 per claw.
    Constitution drain at CR2!

    What are the most overpowered monsters you've fought or seen?

    EDIT: Added original thread to the post
    Last edited by Socksy; 2015-06-06 at 08:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    Last edited by Asrrin; 2015-06-04 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    Any CR 1-2 undead draining levels

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    may I introduce you to the true horror of early ability damage?

    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stirge

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    Default Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    Adamantine Horror, MM2.

    It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

    These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

    It's CR 9.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Adamantine Horror, MM2.

    It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

    These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

    It's CR 9.
    What the Hell. I had to check it out. On top of all of the above being correct, it has high enough stealth skills to sneak up to anyone that hasn't invested in the perception skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComaVision View Post
    What the Hell. I had to check it out. On top of all of the above being correct, it has high enough stealth skills to sneak up to anyone that hasn't invested in the perception skills.
    Man, those are sneakier than Goblin Ninja's! And you never see Goblin Ninja's coming!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Adamantine Horror, MM2.

    It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

    These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

    It's CR 9.
    Yeah, second this one. When I first saw it, I could not believe it. I still cannot. Could wizards have meant 19? That would bee a bit high, but at will disjunction is ridiculous.
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    And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elandris Kajar View Post
    Yeah, second this one. When I first saw it, I could not believe it. I still cannot. Could wizards have meant 19? That would bee a bit high, but at will disjunction is ridiculous.
    That one may be bad, but the other two SLAs are worse. At CL 14, disintegrate is 28d6 damage (98 average, enough to one-shot most 9th-level characters), with a save DC of 21, but the real kicker is Implosion, with its Fortitude save DC of 24. Looking at the sample NPCs in the DMG, the earliest anyone even has a 50% chance of making that save is level 14 (that's the Paladin; Fighter and Barbarian also get to +14 by levels 19 and 20, but nobody else ever does).
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    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warrior 4 armed with a spiked chain. Colossal size, 30 ft. reach (60 ft. with spiked chain), 3 natural weapons (3d6 each). Colossal spiked chain deals 8d6 damage. It's a CR 1 creature by the book.

    EDIT: With the Improved Dragon Wings feat, it also has a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy), even though it can only fly for Con modifier rounds consecutively.
    Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-04 at 05:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warrior 4 armed with a spiked chain. Colossal size, 30 ft. reach (60 ft. with spiked chain), 3 natural weapons (3d6 each). Colossal spiked chain deals 8d6 damage. It's a CR 1 creature by the book.
    You're going to need to explain that.

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    Default Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    shadows.

    there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComaVision View Post
    You're going to need to explain that.
    none of the changes he listed alter CR, so it would indeed be a CR 1 since npc classes follow different rules for CR, and warrior is not an associated class for kobolds, further deflating its CR value. the question is where is colossal coming from
    Last edited by Venger; 2015-06-04 at 04:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    shadows.

    there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.
    Just hire a CE soulborn. They can't exactly to anything else with their class features

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    none of the changes he listed alter CR, so it would indeed be a CR 1 since npc classes follow different rules for CR, and warrior is not an associated class for kobolds, further deflating its CR value. the question is where is colossal coming from
    There's a chart in Draconomicon or some other dragon-related book that links dragon size category to age category (as in, age determines size), and it doesn't specify true dragon IIRC, so it applies to dragonwrought kobolds regardless of the are-they-true-dragons debate. It's one of Uncle Pine's favorite tricks, from the posts of his that I've seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    shadows.

    there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.
    Oh, we can do worse than that. The Allip, at the same CR, reads like someone saw the shadow and thought "you know, this needs to be more capable of handily murdering a party".

    Its statblock is overall very similar to the shadow, except that it does Wisdom drain instead of Strength damage, it can't create spawn, and it regains 5 hp every time it hits with its touch attack. It also has more health than the shadow and a higher AC, in addition to an effect that denies actions to PCs who fail a will save upon hearing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Just hire a CE soulborn. They can't exactly to anything else with their class features
    still deals incorporeal touch damage. since the soulborn can't get him back, shadow will still kill him.



    There's a chart in Draconomicon or some other dragon-related book that links dragon size category to age category (as in, age determines size), and it doesn't specify true dragon IIRC, so it applies to dragonwrought kobolds regardless of the are-they-true-dragons debate. It's one of Uncle Pine's favorite tricks, from the posts of his that I've seen.
    No.

    1) DWK are not true dragons
    2) only true dragons have those age categories
    3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
    4) it certainly is

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeofObliviom View Post
    Oh, we can do worse than that. The Allip, at the same CR, reads like someone saw the shadow and thought "you know, this needs to be more capable of handily murdering a party".

    Its statblock is overall very similar to the shadow, except that it does Wisdom drain instead of Strength damage, it can't create spawn, and it regains 5 hp every time it hits with its touch attack. It also has more health than the shadow and a higher AC, in addition to an effect that denies actions to PCs who fail a will save upon hearing it.
    allips do have drain instead of damage, however they have no attack and thus no power to kill you on their own. when you reach 0 wis, you don't die or rise as spawn, you just black out.

    in tandem with literally anything else, they are deadly, but alone they're a mere annoyance.
    Last edited by Venger; 2015-06-04 at 05:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComaVision View Post
    You're going to need to explain that.
    Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3. Dragonwrought Kobolds, true or not, are Dragons and use true dragon's age categories per RotD. Thus, a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great wyrm dragon. ELH, under "Dragon, Advanced", states that dragons gain a "virtual age category" for every 3 HDs they gain beyond the great wyrm stage. As it's impossible to be a great wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold before 1st level (you need the Dragonwrought feat to qualify as a Dragon), a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold gains a "virtual age category" at 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. levels. ELH also divides dragons in lesser (Tiny as a wyrmling), ordinary (Small as a wyrmling, never reaches Colossal), greater (Small to Large as a wyrmling, reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage), or epic (force, prismatic). Clearly Dragonwrought Kobolds are in the ordinary group, as a wyrmling Dragonwrought Kobold is Small and it never reaches Colossal size. In the same paragraph, it's stated that an ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. Thus, a Dragonwrought Kobold that reached the great wyrm stage (Venerable) at 1st level becomes Colossal at 4th level. This is not all: a dragon also gets other goodies for each HD it gains beyond the great wyrm stage, most notably +1 natural armor/HD, +2 Str and +2 Con/virtual age category and +2 Int, +2 Wis and +2 Cha/2 age categories. Also, since it's stated that when a dragon becomes Colossal its flight speed increases by +50 ft. and its maneuverability becomes clumsy and I forgot about that, if I give to the aforementioned kobold the Improved Dragon Wings (either at 1st level with a flaw or at 3rd level, remember that a Dragon automatically qualifies for every feat that requires the Dragonblood subtype), at 4th level it'll have a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy). I'll edit my previous post to include that.
    Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-14 at 09:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    1) DWK are not true dragons
    2) only true dragons have those age categories
    3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
    4) it certainly is
    1) That's disputable; I happen to agree with you but it can't be proven either way.
    2) If you could give me the location of the chart I'll believe you. I can't find it in Draconomicon.
    3) You're right about non-true dragons, but that's because they don't have draconic age categories. You're wrong about kobolds, though. Races of the Dragon, p. 39, Kobold Age Categories. Any kobold uses the draconic age categories, but DWKs, by virtue of having the dragon type and having draconic age categories, have their size linked to their age.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-04 at 05:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    allips do have drain instead of damage, however they have no attack and thus no power to kill you on their own. when you reach 0 wis, you don't die or rise as spawn, you just black out.

    in tandem with literally anything else, they are deadly, but alone they're a mere annoyance.
    Perhaps, but on the other hand it deals drain a lot faster than PCs can recover naturally, and its combat description claims it will continue to flail away at enemies relentlessly. It's undead and never needs to sleep or stop. So anyone who blacks out is likely to stay that way until they starve to death unless they get lucky and someone rescues them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    No.

    1) DWK are not true dragons
    2) only true dragons have those age categories
    3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
    4) it certainly is
    1) Debatable. Let's not do it.
    2) Kobolds have age categories too (RotD 39).
    3) Dragons with age categories, true or not, follow ELH's rules about advanced dragons.
    4) It certainly is what?
    Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-04 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Edited 1)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    1) That's disputable; I happen to agree with you but it can't be proven either way.
    2) If you could give me the location of the chart I'll believe you. I can't find it in Draconomicon.
    3) You're right about non-true dragons, but that's because they don't have draconic age categories. You're wrong about kobolds, though. Races of the Dragon, p. 39, Kobold Age Categories. Any kobold uses the draconic age categories, but DWKs, by virtue of having the dragon type and having draconic age categories, have their size linked to their age.
    1)right but the burden of proof is on proDWK people to prove they are dragons, not for antiDWK to prove that they're not
    2) sure, I'll look for it and post a page number. I think it's either in draconomicon or monsters of faerun.
    3) oh ok, I misunderstood
    Quote Originally Posted by BladeofObliviom View Post
    Perhaps, but on the other hand it deals drain a lot faster than PCs can recover naturally, and its combat description claims it will continue to flail away at enemies relentlessly. It's undead and never needs to sleep or stop. So anyone who blacks out is likely to stay that way until they starve to death unless they get lucky and someone rescues them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    1) Debatable. Let's not do it.
    2) Kobolds have age categories too (RotD 39).
    3) Dragons with age categories, true or not, follow ELH's rules about advanced dragons.
    4) It certainly is what?
    1) I'm so glad you said that. I agree
    2) ok
    3)see 1
    4) it certainly is one of your favorite tricks, as extra anchovies said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    4) It certainly is what?
    I was just saying that it's one of your favorite tricks, since I've seen you reference it fairly often
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    1) I'm so glad you said that. I agree
    2) ok
    3)see 1
    4) it certainly is one of your favorite tricks, as extra anchovies said.
    3) There's nothing to debate about that, ELH specifically states how dragons grow beyond the great wyrm stage. If a dragon doesn't have age categories it doesn't follow those rules. If a dragon has them, it does. It also says HD, not "racial HD", so the rules apply to all the dragon's HD beyond great wyrm. It also has nothing to do with 1), because "true" dragons are never mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    I was just saying that it's one of your favorite tricks, since I've seen you reference it fairly often
    Oh yes, it certainly is. But for some reason I couldn't connect 4) to your statement when I first read the post, silly me!
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    For other stuff I'm aware of, at least in core, there's the Spider Swarm, whose CR 1 classification is very misleading, since it's very likely to handily murder level 1 characters unless they're carrying Alchemists Fire or something else effective against it. The various types of Hydra are also notable for being rather murderous for their CR, particularly the Pyro- and Cryo- variants which are fully capable of spamming breath weapons from all of their heads as free actions every few turns.
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    Since the first thread wasn't linked I figured I would, a bunch of them haven't been mentioned yet.

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    Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-04 at 05:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.
    Er, both have +2 turn resistance, and the Allip has more HD than CR. Not sure turning is really the optimal strategy there. (Though admittedly it'd probably be more effective than anything else you could do at that level...)
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    I remember seeing a construct in Sandstorm that had an epic spell as an SLA.
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    Shouldn't you be at least level 13 before attempting the clockwork horde? The adamantine horror probably shouldn't be attempted at level 9 due to the massive amount of chaff that comes with it.

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    Default Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeofObliviom View Post
    Er, both have +2 turn resistance, and the Allip has more HD than CR. Not sure turning is really the optimal strategy there. (Though admittedly it'd probably be more effective than anything else you could do at that level...)
    Spirit Shaman Chastise Spirits works too. But if you don't have one of these, or a Cleric, in the party then the DM should probably not throw these against you.
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    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.
    even taking that into account, assuming that all parties are half T1, they both have turn resistance, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Spirit Shaman Chastise Spirits works too. But if you don't have one of these, or a Cleric, in the party then the DM should probably not throw these against you.
    no one plays spirit shaman.

    that's not the problem, though. obviously if the DM knows what he's doing, this won't be an issue. if the DM is new and has faith in the CR system, uses a generator, or plays a module, it's very likely that they'll accidentally throw a monster their party can't meaningfully affect
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