My Incantatrix Fixes.

[Loki Eremes]

Hello there world!

Disclaimer: this is only an atempt to make the Insanely good PrC knows as the "Incantatrix", aceptable for any DM out there, including myself.
.................this is not an oficial errata, just ideas i came across when imaging this wonderfull class in action.

First if all my ideal is for all people in the forum to contribute with my ideas and agree (if you think is ok) with them to make a final version.
There are far too many critics on the internet telling the incantatrix is way too powerfull......and they are indisputably right.
I just dont want another "hey may i play an incantatrix" followed by a "you are not my friend anymore". Thats how i got where i am right now....

...But back to the point, lets get started shall we?
(Before you get confused or start judging, read aaaaall the way through please. And sry if my english isnt that great, not my mother language )
(Also, im sorry if this post doesnt belong in here, but i didnt think it belongs to Homebrew either, as its just D&D 3.5 discussion...)

THE CLASS FEATURES:

90% of them are broken or not fully interpretables, so ill go one by one.
Please, understand i cannot write the original material here, so use your own manual to compare with my changes.
Player's Guide to Faerun (pag 61)



Bonus Metamagic Feats (ex):
As some of you stated, this is a bit too muchof a gift to a class that excels in metamagics, and i it went completly under my radar.
- Change: Gains a Metamagic feat only at lvl 4.
- Explanation: Thats 3 less feats in 10 lvls of PrC, 1 less if you are a wizard, 1 more if you are a sorcerer. Also is the only level where the class do not gain something else.

Focused Studies (ex):
I dont know about RAIs here, but for me this bans a school of magic, and you do not gain access to bonus spells. Its not like you Specialize further (if you are a Wizard). This is a HEAVY loss and will always be for any spellcaster, but its a good trade for all things you aquire later. moving on!

Cooperative Metamagic (su):
Excelent feature. You basically spend your chance to cast a spell to help another one cast a stronger one. Have uses*.
The DC can be monstrous. You need to ready the action. No changes. next one.

Metamagic Effect (su):
Another great feature. you have to be adjacent or inside the spell effect to apply it. Have uses*.
Full round action that generates AoO. The DC can be monstrous again. Changes being discussed. Next

Metamagic Spell Trigger (su):
Here comes the nerfs. This feature is good.....way to good sometimes. No Changes .Considering that you re indeed spending resources and UMD is cross-class for most casters
- Changes: add a UMD skill check. 20 + mod spell lvl.
- Explanation: Yeah, maybe is on your spell-list, but think about the flavour = you're changing the way the wand works, altering its mechanism. Normally activating a wand is a DC 20 check.

Seize Concentration (su):
Well this is one of the powerhouses of the Incantatrix. The problem is it has no action times! Action times being discussed
- Change: it takes an Inmediate action. Duplicate the ST bonus for the original caster.
- Explanation: You do it outside your turn, it makes sense. As Inmediate actions spend Swift actions of your next round, this limits the feature to 1 per round only, and shortens at the same
....................time the economy of actions for the next one. Also "man! i casted that!", +4 to ST to the original caster just makes more sense to me too, he knows his spells, strengths
....................and weaknesses.

Instant Metamagic (su):
Ok. this is so frigging awesome, but needs to be stopped. For that there was an errata o WotC page, but it was deleted: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a
- Change: added errata "The incantatrix cannot use this ability if the metamagicked spell would normally use a spell slot of a higher level than she can cast."
- Explanation: you cant Quicken(+4), as a 12 lvl Sorcerer a Fireball. Same applies to the Wizard. Well played WotC.

Snatch Spell (su):
Right, same deal as with "Seize Concentration" Action times being discussed
- Changes: it takes an Inmediate action. Duplicate the ST bonus for the original caster.

Improved Metamagic (su):
No Words for this one, its just a beast. Apply 4 different metamagics and thats a -4 all-togheter.
- Change: Choose 3 Metamagic feats you know. This applies to only to those 3. Cant be changed once you decided
- Explanation: Why 3? dont know, 1 felt too much, 2 not enough. Its a capstone...it has to be good. Its a good nerf considering by lvl 15 you would have easily like 6 or 7 metamagic feats.

=== ABOUT USES PER DAY* ===

Again, "Cooperative Metamagic" and "Metamagic Effect", both have 3+(INT mod) uses per day. As this PrC can be taken by any arcane caster...
- Change: change the formula to " 1 + (CASTING STAT mod) uses per day". Give "Seize Concentration" and "Snatch Spell" this quantity of uses per day too.
- Explanation: This helps Charisma casting classes like the Sorcerer, not getting MAD. Also, i dont see why the other 2 class features are limitless when they are strong as hell.

=== ABOUT REQUIREMENTS ===

Seriously? Iron Will? why...
- Change: Susbstitute "Iron Will" feat with "any magic item creation feat".
- Explanation: Imagine being a Incantatrix, imagine reaching lvl 10, imagine having Metamagic Spell Trigger and boom! you CANT USE IT. "Yo, haven't your master told about it? sorry
................... dude". I know players know, but its plain idiotic entering a PrC that plays with Spell Triggered items and dont have a requirement like that. Its just seems more... right.

=== ABOUT DCs ===

"Cooperative Metamagic" & "Metamagic Effect" are the two features that use the following formula: 18+(3*modified spell lvl).
Explaination: a 3rd lvl Incantatrix (8th lvl spellcaster) has 11 ranks in Spellcraft (maxed out) +5 INT (assuming you are a wizard). This gives you a +16 to roll.
If i want to use the Extend Spell Metamagic over a Fire Wall spell, the DC is a 33.
YES. 18 + (3*5) = 33.
This means that to overcome the DC i have to roll a 17 on the dice.
Now remember this features take actions and have uses per day. 15% chance of success. Not funny. AT ALL.
Having to roll a 10+ would still be a pain in the buttocks, but its more reasonable a 50% chance of success when im spending my whole round and a use to make it happen.

- Change: new formula is DC = 13 + (3*mod spell lvl)
- Explanation: This is the only "buff" i made to the class. It lets you use the features on early stages of the PrC, and dont be a waste of time when you could cast a spell.
................... Dont tell me "But there are items and feats that help you maximize SPELLCRAFT check". Yes, there are. But i find it a way of rewarding investing on those at higher character
................... levels and letting you make use of those features more easy and efficiently.






Well, i hope you like the changes. And i hope to recieve feedback from the most experimented people about this thread!



.

[Loki Eremes]

(( RESERVED FOR JOURNAL STUFF AND COMPLETION SUMMARY ))

What do we have by now?
- Changed DCs (technically a buff)
- Added DCs to Metamagic Spell Strigger
- Added action time to Seize Concentration
- Added Errata to Instant Metamagic
- Added action time to Snatch Spell
- Reduced Improved Metamagic effectiness a lot.
- Added uses per day to Seize Concentration & Snatch Spell
- Modified uses per day formula.
- Changed PrC entry requirements.


[ may 30th - 2015 ]
- Added Bonus Metamagic Feat nerf.

[Wacky89]

You should probably move this to the homebrew forum

[Loki Eremes]

So....
a "probably you should move" and nothing else? almost 100 hundred views
and no feedback whatsoever?

[Extra Anchovies]

It would be easier to follow what changes you made if you copypasted the Incantatrix class table and features, and then added your changes in bold (and strike through anything you remove).

Also, Metamagic Effect, the bonus feats, and the capstone are what make the class particularly strong. The bonus feats need removal (because then you actually give something up by trading 10 levels of Wizard for 10 of Incantatrix), MM Effect needs limits, and the capstone needs changing.

[Zanos]

I would recommend reporting your post and asking it to be moved to homebrew, yeah.

As for feedback:

I'm surprised someone took a crack at Incantatrix and didn't change Metamagic Effect/Cooperative metamagic. Those are the features that are the most maligned for their ability to let you stack metamagics, particularly persistent spell, on basically any buff you like to turn yourself into DMM persist, Wizard edition. Nerfing the uses is a good start, I suppose. The DC is high, yeah, but int focused casters don't really have trouble optimizing their spellcraft roll. Skill checks are notoriously easy to boost into the stratosphere.

Seize Concentration, as a Su, defaulted to a standard action, as per the generic rules for Supernatural Abilities. Changing it to an immediate is actually a buff, and a large one at that.

IMO Instant Metamagic is fine without the errata. It's uses don't scale well, and I think cap out at 2/day. Two quickened spells per day is probably fine.

Improved metamagic being nerfed to "pick 3" is good.

[Loki Eremes]

It would be easier to follow what changes you made if you copypasted the Incantatrix class table and features, and then added your changes in bold (and strike through anything you remove).

Also, Metamagic Effect, the bonus feats, and the capstone are what make the class particularly strong. The bonus feats need removal (because then you actually give something up by trading 10 levels of Wizard for 10 of Incantatrix), MM Effect needs limits, and the capstone needs changing.

I know it would be easier to follow but im not sure if i can post the RAW in here. ((i need a moderator to answer me that))
I havent tought about the bonus feats, maybe reduce them to only 2 instead of 4? like lvl 1/5?

Metamagic Effect have uses per day reduced considering the "ABOUT USES PER DAY" section i wrote, so it has limits.
The capstone i wrote now is only applicable to 3 selected metamagic feats and not ALL of them.

I still try and make a table to a which lvl gains what is a MOD ALLOWS ME.

[Loki Eremes]

I would recommend reporting your post and asking it to be moved to homebrew, yeah.

As for feedback:

I'm surprised someone took a crack at Incantatrix and didn't change Metamagic Effect/Cooperative metamagic. Those are the features that are the most maligned for their ability to let you stack metamagics, particularly persistent spell, on basically any buff you like to turn yourself into DMM persist, Wizard edition. Nerfing the uses is a good start, I suppose. The DC is high, yeah, but int focused casters don't really have trouble optimizing their spellcraft roll. Skill checks are notoriously easy to boost into the stratosphere.

Seize Concentration, as a Su, defaulted to a standard action, as per the generic rules for Supernatural Abilities. Changing it to an immediate is actually a buff, and a large one at that.

IMO Instant Metamagic is fine without the errata. It's uses don't scale well, and I think cap out at 2/day. Two quickened spells per day is probably fine.

Improved metamagic being nerfed to "pick 3" is good.

Yeah, i was with sleep deprivation when i wrote this

Seize Concentration: Is it a standard action?

from d20srd: Concentration checks
- Action -
None. Making a Concentration check doesn’t take an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively).

So.... this is a reaction right?

[Ellowryn]

Yes, you should probably move this to Homebrew, but getting to the actual changes:

Metamagic spell trigger is not really such a broken ability that it needs a nerf. Yes being able to drop metamagic effects onto wands and staves can be neat, but with expending party resources like gold and exp to replace the extra charges used adds up fast enough to make it not worth bothering with. Not to mention the two primary classes to enter it with, wizard and sorcerer, do not have UMD as a class skill. Which moves this from neat to a near worthless class ability.

Improved metamagic's changes don't actually do anything really to the ability. Most metamagic abuse comes from taking a few metamagic feats and stacking metamagic reducers on them to get little to no spell level adjustment. Thats not to say that this wont hurt any possible build, but it wont really cut down on the cheddar.

Metamagic Effect. THIS is the ability that makes the class broken good, leads to serious shenanigans, and causes DM's to ban the class. Even in games where you cannot just make whatever magic you want with the unique magic item crafting rules it is easy to buff your spellcraft check to stupid high levels. Changing this to a flat number (possibly scaling with level with the class so people will have to take all 10 levels to get the biggest benefit) will seriously cut down on abuse.

[eggynack]

Metamagic Effect have uses per day reduced considering the "ABOUT USES PER DAY" section i wrote, so it has limits.

Yeah, but it's still ridiculously broken, and maybe even a bit moreso now that you've lowered the DC. You made it so that the wizard can persist two less spells in a day. It's just not a fix, particularly because that loss is a drop in the bucket next to the often massive intelligence of a wizard. Metamagic effect is, by a decent margin, the most crazy powerful ability of the class. Creating a fix and not seriously nerfing it makes that fix a bit on the pointless side, by my reckoning.

[Loki Eremes]

Yes, you should probably move this to Homebrew, but getting to the actual changes:

Metamagic spell trigger is not really such a broken ability that it needs a nerf. Yes being able to drop metamagic effects onto wands and staves can be neat, but with expending party resources like gold and exp to replace the extra charges used adds up fast enough to make it not worth bothering with. Not to mention the two primary classes to enter it with, wizard and sorcerer, do not have UMD as a class skill. Which moves this from neat to a near worthless class ability.

Improved metamagic's changes don't actually do anything really to the ability. Most metamagic abuse comes from taking a few metamagic feats and stacking metamagic reducers on them to get little to no spell level adjustment. Thats not to say that this wont hurt any possible build, but it wont really cut down on the cheddar.

Metamagic Effect. THIS is the ability that makes the class broken good, leads to serious shenanigans, and causes DM's to ban the class. Even in games where you cannot just make whatever magic you want with the unique magic item crafting rules it is easy to buff your spellcraft check to stupid high levels. Changing this to a flat number (possibly scaling with level with the class so people will have to take all 10 levels to get the biggest benefit) will seriously cut down on abuse.

Yeah, but it's still ridiculously broken, and maybe even a bit moreso now that you've lowered the DC. You made it so that the wizard can persist two less spells in a day. It's just not a fix, particularly because that loss is a drop in the bucket next to the often massive intelligence of a wizard. Metamagic effect is, by a decent margin, the most crazy powerful ability of the class. Creating a fix and not seriously nerfing it makes that fix a bit on the pointless side, by my reckoning.

eggy, sorry, i just dont see how lowering the DC makes a wizard persist two more spells in a day, even more considering i took 2 uses per day from them. (and im considering just it be only "CASTING STAT mod" instead "1+ CASTING STAT mod")



Metamagic Spell Trigger: Yes...i stupidily forgot UMD is not a class skill for most spellcasters. My bad. removing it.

Improved metamagic: Maybe reduce it to only 2 metamagics? i dont know dude. Having to choose a limited numer of you Metamagics to apply this to seems legit. Just 1 is too much.

Metamagic Effect: Mmmmmm, as you are modifing another caster's spell......what about a Caster level check? thats way more difficult to buff up and scales pretty well.

[ShurikVch]

Metamagic Effect is useless for persisting buffs, because it modify effect
Effect - means "Effect:" line in spell description
Note in-book example spells:
Cloudkill - "Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high"
Wall of Force - "Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level"
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but (AFAIK) most (if not all) buff spells are lacking "Effect: ..." line, and instead have line "Target: ..."
Really, it's the same restriction as for the Living Spell template, except without additional restrictions when "effect is already a creature"

[Loki Eremes]

Metamagic Effect is useless for persisting buffs, because it modify effect
Effect - means "Effect:" line in spell description
Note in-book example spells:
Cloudkill - "Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high"
Wall of Force - "Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level"
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but (AFAIK) most (if not all) buff spells are lacking "Effect: ..." line, and instead have line "Target: ..."
Really, it's the same restriction as for the Living Spell template, except without additional restrictions when "effect is already a creature"

Mmmmm never tought of that. If this comes to be right thats a pretty nice nerf to the all-time interpretation i think.

[eggynack]

Metamagic Effect is useless for persisting buffs, because it modify effect
Effect - means "Effect:" line in spell description
Note in-book example spells:
Cloudkill - "Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high"
Wall of Force - "Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level"
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but (AFAIK) most (if not all) buff spells are lacking "Effect: ..." line, and instead have line "Target: ..."
Really, it's the same restriction as for the Living Spell template, except without additional restrictions when "effect is already a creature"

I don't think that spell effect is that rigidly defined a term. Lacking an effect line does not necessarily mean that there is no spell effect, and I don't think there's much in the rules to support the idea that you're proposing. The effect line means that there's some external object being constructed, not that all other spells lack an effect.

Edit:

eggy, sorry, i just dont see how lowering the DC makes a wizard persist two more spells in a day, even more considering i took 2 uses per day from them. (and im considering just it be only "CASTING STAT mod" instead "1+ CASTING STAT mod")

I specifically said two less, not two more. I also said that it's really not enough to really nerf the incantatrix. The DC lowering is a separate, and unneeded, buff.

Double-edit: Actually, while I don't think metamagic effect works based off of the effect line currently, you could probably make some good headway into fixing the ability by making it operate that way. Just strictly word the ability such that it requires an effect line, and you have an ability that does things that are significantly less crazy.

[nedz]

I would still ban this.

Reasons

• You left in the 4 bonus metamagic feats. Even if you removed all of the other class features this class would still be strictly better than staying with Sorcerer say. This class assumes Wizard entry.
• ShurikVch's reading of Metamagic Effect is helpful in reducing the abuse, but it's still big no button to someone else's BC with Sculpt Spell. Persisting your own BC spells is quite big power up also as is being able to edit any BC spells in affect.
• Seize Concentration — others have noticed the problem here.
• Snatch Spell — same deal as with Seize Concentration
• Improved Metamagic — one is too many for me, Oh and it synergises with the classes other features.

This is the errata page link BTW. They changed the HLQs
http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/er/20040125a

My advice: use the Magic of Faerûn version (p31) and consider deleting the bonus feats.

[Loki Eremes]

I don't think that spell effect is that rigidly defined a term. Lacking an effect line does not necessarily mean that there is no spell effect, and I don't think there's much in the rules to support the idea that you're proposing. The effect line means that there's some external object being constructed, not that all other spells lack an effect.

Edit:
I specifically said two less, not two more. I also said that it's really not enough to really nerf the incantatrix. The DC lowering is a separate, and unneeded, buff.

Double-edit: Actually, while I don't think metamagic effect works based off of the effect line currently, you could probably make some good headway into fixing the ability by making it operate that way. Just strictly word the ability such that it requires an effect line, and you have an ability that does things that are significantly less crazy.

Sorry, my bad again.

Its a good way of nerfing the feature: the need of having the "Effect" line in the description.

Other way i imagined is spending resources of its own. Something like "applying a metamagic in this fashion needs part of your own arcane power to modify the spell in action, thus spending a spell slot which level is equal to the adjustment of the metamagic you are using". Ex: want to maximize that fireball? you must also spend a lvl 3 spell of your own. (not the best example rule-wise but you get the idea)
This makes the ability neat but not OP in any way. But if we do this i think Spellcraft check is out of question. Spending a spell, a full round and then you have a chance of failing a check.... its seems to harsh for me in that scenario.

What do you think?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Metamagic Effect is the big one imo. It doesn't matter how expensive it is, getting free persist is broken. If you're allowing it at all the restriction should not come in uses/day, you should limit the maximum spell level to what you're actually capable of casting (so no persisting of 4th level or higher spells pre-epic, or 5th level+ if you have the capstone.

You only need to look at the DMM:Persist cleric. They get only a few uses of that in a day and go to extreme lengths getting more, to the point of spending the majority of their feats on Extra Turning and (if it's allowed) the majority of their wealth on Nightsticks. Free persisting is that good, even with very limited uses.

That change alone would already significantly reduce the brokenness.

[Zanos]

You left in the 4 bonus metamagic feats. Even if you removed all of the other class features this class would still be strictly better than staying with Sorcerer say. This class assumes Wizard entry.

Eh, in 3.5 at least PrCs being strictly better than base classes is the default. There are very few builds that don't immediately jump into a PrC as soon as they qualify for one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Eh, in 3.5 at least PrCs being strictly better than base classes is the default. There are very few builds that don't immediately jump into a PrC as soon as they qualify for one.

Not to mention that most casters (beside the druid) don't really have any class features that you could trade. Sorcerers especially don't get anything after first level.
The only thing left would be partial progression, and it's pretty widely acknowledged that you have to get something really big to make it worth losing even one level of casting progression.
That doesn't really mesh well with the goal of "better balance".

[RedMage125]

While I'm not opposed to adding "any item creation feat" to the list of prerequisites...have you considered that the Wizard's automatic gain of Scribe Scroll already fills that requirement?

So it's not helpful for Metamagic Spell Trigger.

[Loki Eremes]

Metamagic Effect is the big one imo. It doesn't matter how expensive it is, getting free persist is broken. If you're allowing it at all the restriction should not come in uses/day, you should limit the maximum spell level to what you're actually capable of casting (so no persisting of 4th level or higher spells pre-epic, or 5th level+ if you have the capstone.

You only need to look at the DMM:Persist cleric. They get only a few uses of that in a day and go to extreme lengths getting more, to the point of spending the majority of their feats on Extra Turning and (if it's allowed) the majority of their wealth on Nightsticks. Free persisting is that good, even with very limited uses.

That change alone would already significantly reduce the brokenness.

As i said 1 post earlier in regard to Metamagic Effect:

Its a good way of nerfing the feature: the need of having the "Effect" line in the description.

Other way i imagined is spending resources of its own. Something like "applying a metamagic in this fashion needs part of your own arcane power to modify the spell in action, thus spending a spell slot which level is equal to the adjustment of the metamagic you are using". Ex: want to maximize that fireball? you must also spend a lvl 3 spell of your own. (not the best example rule-wise but you get the idea)
This makes the ability neat but not OP in any way. But if we do this i think Spellcraft check is out of question. Spending a spell, a full round and then you have a chance of failing a check.... its seems to harsh for me in that scenario.

What do you think?

I assumed the fact that you cant persist what you cant cast as "your studies or comprehension of those spells eludes your grasp" but i'll better clarify it on the entry

While I'm not opposed to adding "any item creation feat" to the list of prerequisites...have you considered that the Wizard's automatic gain of Scribe Scroll already fills that requirement?

So it's not helpful for Metamagic Spell Trigger.

Maaan, stupid wizards.
What about "Any item creation with 3rd lvl spellcaster prerequisite or more"
Now scribe scroll not counts.

Eh, in 3.5 at least PrCs being strictly better than base classes is the default. There are very few builds that don't immediately jump into a PrC as soon as they qualify for one.

Not to mention that most casters (beside the druid) don't really have any class features that you could trade. Sorcerers especially don't get anything after first level.
The only thing left would be partial progression, and it's pretty widely acknowledged that you have to get something really big to make it worth losing even one level of casting progression.
That doesn't really mesh well with the goal of "better balance".

Yes. gaining class features as you advance even if you lose 1 or 2 casting lvls is always better that not gaining anything. I remember the Swiftblade and i wanna cry. Basically TIME STOP as a class feature.

[Loki Eremes]

So.... LAST MODIFICATIONS about the following features:

1) Bonus Metamagic Feats =
Limited to 1 at level lvl 4.

2) Metamagic Effect =
What dou you think of the modifications to the lasts posts??

[Loki Eremes]

So I guess...no one cares about this class anymore.
Nor a project where you fix it to be a Non-game breaking class.

[DeAnno]

I feel like you cut out all the things I generally like the class for and left all the obnoxious Persistomancy in. Maybe it would be better received if you actually cut the class in half; one a Wizard PRC where you messed around with Items and Special Abilities and a different one a Sorc PRC where you could get bonus feats and metamagic reduction. A lot of people playing more straightforward Sorc builds would happily cut everything but the 4 Bonus feats and the capstone, which I don't see as a particularly OP 10 levels.