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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Proven_Paradox's Avatar

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    Default [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    So, I think the consensus around here is that two-handed weapon fighting is generally the best way to go about melee unless you're a rogue. To me, this is because power attack benefits are doubled for THWs, bringing thier possible damage output way, way up. Another part of this is that THW fighters just take power attack and maybe cleave, then go on down another feat tree, whilst TWF requires a long feat-tree to be useful. I propose a quick fix to that.

    First off, change power attack... Basically, remove that “Special” text.

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    Power Attack [General]
    Prerequisite: Str 13.

    Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

    A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
    ---

    For clarification, one may use this version of power attack with light weapons. That's something I'm not quite set on, but I think thrusting really hard with a dagger should do more damage myself.

    Anyway, add in this...

    ---
    Improved Power Attack [General]
    Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

    Benefit: If you are using a one-handed weapon, add 1.5 times the the attack roll penalty. If you are useing a two-handed weapon, or wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands, you instead add twice the attack roll penalty. Attacks with light weapons receive no benefit from this feat. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

    A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
    ---

    So, what do you guys think? These sound like reasonable house rules to you?
    Last edited by Proven_Paradox; 2007-04-23 at 11:14 PM. Reason: Strange formatting issues...

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    Lord Iames Osari's Avatar

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    Personally, I'd rather pump TWF than nerf THF.

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    Khoran's Avatar

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    First thing I would recomend would be to take away Cleave and Great Cleave from the prereqs for Improved Power Attack.

    I personally don't agree with this, since it would be harder to put more of your strength into both attack while Dual Weilding. Not to say it can't be done, just it would be easier to swing a Two Handed Weapon.

    However, I would suggest a possible third feat that would give you a x1.5 modifier to Two Weapon Power Attack that increases to x2 with Improved Power Attack.

    Just a thought.

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    Well, you've made the feat Power Attack useless except for the cases in which the monster's AC is lower than your AB (which does happen, but even then you won't get a lot of benefit from this feat) or possibly at very low levels. I could demonstrate it mathematically, but I don't think that's necessary.

    I personally would prefer it if you combine Improved Power Attack and Power Attack so that you get a 1.5 conversion with one-handed weapons.
    Last edited by IonizedChicken; 2007-04-24 at 04:12 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    The Frenzied Berserker prestige class have something like that: Improved Power Attack, and Supreme Power Attack, tough these just pimp 2HW more.
    The only thing I think is weird with the base P.A., is how the bonus doesn't seem "right".
    If you use a 1HW, you add your strength bonus to damage. If you use P.A., you get a -1 attack and +1 damage.
    If you use a 2HW, you add your strength and a half bonus to damage. If you use P.A., you get a -1 attack and +2 damage.
    Shouldn't if be a -1 attack and +1.5 damage? Or for real numbers, -2 for a +3?
    I like the idea of making Improved Power Attack a feat (and leaving the Supreme as only a class feature for Frenzied Berserker)

    Power Attack [general]
    Req: Str 13, BAB +1
    Benefit: Get a penalty to your attack roll up to your BAB. You gain a +1 to your damage roll for every -1 you take to your attack roll.
    Special: If you are using a two-handed weapon, add +1.5 to your damage roll for every -1 you take to your attack roll (rounded down).

    Improved Power Attack [general]
    Req: Str 15, BAB +4, Power Attack
    Benefit: Get a penalty to your attack roll up to your BAB. You gain a +1.5 to your damage roll for every -1 you take to your attack roll (rounded down).
    Special: If you are using a two-handed weapon, add +2 to your damage roll for every -1 you take to your attack.

    Supreme Power Attack (Ex)
    Frenzied Berserker class feature
    Benefit: Get a penalty to your attack roll up to your BAB. You gain a +2 to your damage roll for every -1 you take to your attack roll.
    Special: If you are using a two-handed weapon, add +3 to your damage roll for every -1 you take to your attack.

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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    Another way is to add a few feats that add bonus dice to a weapon's base damage, not stacking with enchantments like flaming. Like weapon specialization, but adding 1d6 instead of +2 and can be taken multiple times for one weapon.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Iames Osari View Post
    Personally, I'd rather pump TWF than nerf THF.
    I agree... I would very much rather pump up TWF and Sword and Board.

    My suggestions:

    1.- Meld TWF, ImprovedTWF and GreaterTWF into a single feat that gives one extra attack with your off hand for every attack you have with your main hand. (the penalties stay the same)

    The Two Weapon Ranger gets Two Weapon Defense at 6th level and Dual Strike (or something similar) at 11th level. (this has already been suggested in this board)

    This would allow TWF style characters to free up space for additional feats.

    2.- Allow a character with Improved Shield Bash to attack with his main weapon and bash with his shield as if he had the TWF feat (it's not as if the shield bash did a lot of damage, anyway). Also allow spears to be used one-handed and in combination with shields, 300 style.

    This is to make shields more attractive to fighter types.

    I plan to use these modifications in my game, but it is still a low level campaign, so I havent been able to measure the effectiveness of it.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    I have to disagree with the other posters. I don't think increasing the power of Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon and Shield Fighting is the answer to the imbalance between these Fighting Styles. I would have no problem turning this Feat back into the 3.0 version (which is what you have essentially done). Improved Power Attack is where the problems begin to arise.

    My current thinking is to have Power Attack Damage apply to only one Attack per Iterative Attack and contribute Damage of the order of either 1:1 or 1:2 (as preferred). This keeps the damage balanced for each type of Attack form. I would also alter the Two Handed and Off Hand Strength Bonus Damage to 2:1 and 1:1 respectively.

    So two options:

    Low Powered

    Weapon and Shield [(Weapon Damage) + (1:1 Strength Bonus Damage) + (1:1 Power Attack Damage)]
    Two Handed Fighting [(Weapon Damage) + (2:1 Strength Bonus Damage) + (1:1 Power Attack Damage)]
    Two Weapon Fighting [(Weapon Damage) + (1:1 Strength Bonus Damage) + (1:1 Power Attack Damage)] + [(Weapon Damage) + (1:1 Strength Bonus Damage)].

    High Powered

    Power Attack becomes 2:1 for all styles.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I have to disagree with the other posters. I don't think increasing the power of Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon and Shield Fighting is the answer to the imbalance between these Fighting Styles. I would have no problem turning this Feat back into the 3.0 version (which is what you have essentially done). Improved Power Attack is where the problems begin to arise.

    My current thinking is to have Power Attack Damage apply to only one Attack per Iterative Attack and contribute Damage of the order of either 1:1 or 1:2 (as preferred). This keeps the damage balanced for each type of Attack form. I would also alter the Two Handed and Off Hand Strength Bonus Damage to 2:1 and 1:1 respectively.

    So two options:

    Low Powered

    Weapon and Shield [(Weapon Damage) + (1:1 Strength Bonus Damage) + (1:1 Power Attack Damage)]
    Two Handed Fighting [(Weapon Damage) + (2:1 Strength Bonus Damage) + (1:1 Power Attack Damage)]
    Two Weapon Fighting [(Weapon Damage) + (1:1 Strength Bonus Damage) + (1:1 Power Attack Damage)] + [(Weapon Damage) + (1:1 Strength Bonus Damage)].

    High Powered

    Power Attack becomes 2:1 for all styles.
    I am more inclined towards making meleers more powerful and not less powerful, that's why I was aiming for giving more love to the other two major fighting styles.

    It is not as if full melee classes are underpowered, no?

    However I can see the logic in nerfing power attack a bit... Too bad WotC is not hiring all the talented people in this forum to do D&D 3.6 eh?
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    Is it evil, Evil, Evil or EVIL?
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    Playing a Paladin? Don't fall into the traps of casuistry or excessive rigourism!

    Instead of that, read Peregrine's lesson

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    "It's almost like the universe is trying to deliberately force some form of arbitrary equality between those of us who can reshape matter with our thoughts and those who cannot!"

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Matthew's Avatar

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    Default Re: [House Rules] THWs and Power Attack

    I don't know why, but this Thread is constantly replacing my link to Krimm's Nation of the Dead Setting. I thought I had posted in it already, but apparently not. Well, in hopes that this will change matters...

    Yeah, I agree that reducing the potency of Power Attack is not a a very popular answer, but I think if we're going to balance the Fighting Styles thast use it, it's a viable option. In any case, most of the damage that comes off it tends to do so in combination with charges and such, so it's not much of a change if you use the high powered version.

    It certainly is too bad that Wizards don't seem to want to 'fix' many of the imbalances in 3.5 and that their Monster Manuals are not full of creations culled from these and other boards. Never mind, I'm sure once Fourth Edition rolls out we'll see a lot of familiar looking ideas.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-06-16 at 10:31 PM.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

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