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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Now, something I've always wanted to do with my group, was present a character with the stat array of 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11; and somehow create a character that breaks the game in a cheesey way.

    So, assuming all splat books (save 3rd party) are available for use... Is this at all possible?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan_Scott82 View Post
    Though if Paladin hood were ice cream this forum could drive Baskin & Robbins out of business, there are far more than 31 flavors of answers to this question.

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    Solo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Buy a candle of Invocation?

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    I suppose I should've mentioned something about a build...
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan_Scott82 View Post
    Though if Paladin hood were ice cream this forum could drive Baskin & Robbins out of business, there are far more than 31 flavors of answers to this question.

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    Solo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Oh, well in that case, stroll over to google and do a search for Pun Pun

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Put the 11 in Int. Become a Wizard 20. Put all stat boosts into Int, buy a Headband of Intellect, and Planar Bind two Efreeti to give yourself a +5 inherent bonus to Int.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    It would be an interesting challenge trying to hit level 20 if you can't cast level 2 spells unaugmented...

    Actually, wait, no it wouldn't be. You can get a Headband and a stat boost at level 4. That means you're eligible to learn 4th-level spells, and it's all downhill from there. You don't even need to mess around with extraplanar cheese (but you're a wizard, so you may as well).
    Last edited by Inyssius Tor; 2007-04-24 at 10:47 PM.
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Well. I already knew wizards win, and yet, I wasn't exactly expecting this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan_Scott82 View Post
    Though if Paladin hood were ice cream this forum could drive Baskin & Robbins out of business, there are far more than 31 flavors of answers to this question.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Classes that don't need stats. . . Binder works well for this, as do the Martial Adepts. Neither breaks the game very hard, though. Standard casters don't work too well for this (unless, of course, you calibrate your expectations lower; then the Wizard works).

    I believe the Pun-Pun build is still possible, though.

    I don't think the Artificer especially needs any stats to do what it does, just to do them reliably.
    Last edited by I_Got_This_Name; 2007-04-24 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Reread my sig
    Last projects, from years back: Lesser Disciplines (Tome of Battle). Also, Never Behind the Curve (multiclassing).

    Some of my current work is under the name IGTN on D&D Wiki

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Tellah's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Yeah, the Artificer can make the scrolls, he just can't use them.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Can't make a charger build until at least 12th level.... to get power attack.

    Chargers, I find, are the most 'forgiving' breakable builds - anything else if you screw up the combo, the combo is gone - chargers are pretty straightforward.

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Wild Shape Ranger variant into Master of Many Forms is the best for those stats (or even a 0-point-buy). None of your stats matter as soon as you hit level 5 and can wild shape.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    are lots of stat boosting items possible?
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    are lots of stat boosting items possible?
    i would think not, that just defeats the whole purpose of the exercise...if you can just use items, you might as well have the stats to begin with. The challenge is break/cheese the game with no good stats. Anyone can do cheesey stuff with a +10 int/str/con/dex/cha/t&a bonus, regardless if its from pure stats or pure items. Can you do it with a +0 bonus, seeing as this decreases the feats you can qualify for and the spells you can cast....
    Last edited by Larrin; 2007-04-25 at 09:22 AM.
    Chaos is the friend of those who make no enemies and form no alliances.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    There was that New Demigod: Cas. He was introduced in Heroes of Horror as a farmer (most farmers are typically commoners).

    Cas prayed for help from his Patron Power when his familiy was killed instead of doing something about it so he was probably a commoner. Most Commoners use the stat array for the thread.

    When his Patron Power failed to help him he got so mad his Rage and Will was enough to exalt himself to Divine Godhood.

    Now you just need to figure out how Cas did that mechanically since Wizards says it happened in game and you have something in many ways superior to pun pun or the Serpent Kingdom Chosen.

    Consider Tweaking the scores just a little Bit with a 14, 12, 11, 10, 10, 8, 8 (Bumping up Two of the 11s and Dropping Two of the 10s). I liked that recent Wizard's Web Article on the Favored Soul for Flavor.

    Take a Human Favored Soul with a Patron Power like Ilmater in FRCS or Phieran or the Hearth Goddess Estanna with the Vow of Poverty and allow the PC to acquire the Saint Template. This could actually be one of the more interesting and enjoyable Party PCs to play who could still contribute to the party at almost all levels effectively.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-04-25 at 07:04 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Wild Shape Ranger variant into Master of Many Forms is the best for those stats (or even a 0-point-buy). None of your stats matter as soon as you hit level 5 and can wild shape.
    Then you could take feats that you could only use while wild-shaped!

    "Yes, I know how to hit very hard... just, uh, not with this body."

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    Ramza00's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Then you could take feats that you could only use while wild-shaped!

    "Yes, I know how to hit very hard... just, uh, not with this body."
    Wildshape Ranger 5/MomF X

    Lvl 7 you can remain wildshape for 21 hours
    Lvl 8 you can remain wildshape for 32 hours

    I don't remember where, but there is also an item ability which gives you +1 wildshape uses per day. Since I don't remember where it is, I can't look up its cost.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Druid's Vestment, or something like that? I think it might be in the DMG.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Fine w/o even trying make a Vow of Poverty Druid put stat increases into wisdom= win all you need is a 14 wisdom with a druid.

    Technically with an 11 in wisdom you could always become a planar shephard in eberron and from there everything goes downhill

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    storybookknight's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    With some items and a cheesy race that buffed WIS, you could even have a MOMF with a casting score!
    Avatar by Mephibosheth!

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larrin View Post
    i would think not, that just defeats the whole purpose of the exercise...if you can just use items, you might as well have the stats to begin with. The challenge is break/cheese the game with no good stats. Anyone can do cheesey stuff with a +10 int/str/con/dex/cha/t&a bonus, regardless if its from pure stats or pure items. Can you do it with a +0 bonus, seeing as this decreases the feats you can qualify for and the spells you can cast....
    I don't see why stat-boosting items would be disallowed any more than the stat increases from level-ups. The point of this excersize, to me, appears to be to take your average peasant with the expendable array and make him break the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    I don't see why stat-boosting items would be disallowed any more than the stat increases from level-ups. The point of this excersize, to me, appears to be to take your average peasant with the expendable array and make him break the game.
    Yeah, characters have expected wealth based on their level, so it only makes sense to let them spend it on items.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    I agree with the VoP if you want to actually play this build up from first level. Sure you don't get items, but it would replace a bunch of stats.
    Johannes factotum of the Bard Defense League

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    "Jack of all trades, master of none, though ofttimes better than master of one."

    The main question that any DM should ask before making a house-rule or exception is, "Is it balanced?"

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Yeah, Druid 10/Planar Sheppard 10 doesn't really need stats... sure, some Wisdom might be nice, but hey, they can Wild Shape all day long anyway.

    JaronK

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Enzario's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Remember that bonuses gained from items don't affect the number of spells per day you get i.e. if you have 10 intelligence and a Headband of Intellect +6 you'll still only be able to cast cantrips.
    If a cute girl with a red sash and overalls on slips you a note, ignore it, forget it, and sic the police on her.

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzario View Post
    Remember that bonuses gained from items don't affect the number of spells per day you get i.e. if you have 10 intelligence and a Headband of Intellect +6 you'll still only be able to cast cantrips.
    Support this.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Tellah's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzario View Post
    Remember that bonuses gained from items don't affect the number of spells per day you get i.e. if you have 10 intelligence and a Headband of Intellect +6 you'll still only be able to cast cantrips.
    Untrue. Skill points at level-up are the only thing specifically excluded in the headband's description:

    Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points.

    Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).

  27. - Top - End - #27

    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Be middle aged, so you have 9 str, 10 dex, 10 con, 12 int, 11 wis, 11 cha, then go wizard.

    It'd be hard, but you could do it!

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can you 'break' something with average stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzario View Post
    Remember that bonuses gained from items don't affect the number of spells per day you get i.e. if you have 10 intelligence and a Headband of Intellect +6 you'll still only be able to cast cantrips.
    I don't think the low stats limit spells per day, just the level of spell you can cast, meaning that, technically, you can cast an Empowered Magic Missile with an 11 int, since it's only a 1st level spell; further, it's the only use for that slot. You still have the nth level slots; you just can't cast out of them (without the item).

    I can agree that shapeshifters are best, then leadership abusers (assuming you can get the DMG-style NPCs as Cohorts; then you're just two levels behind and have NPC stats. Ideally you'd be able to get the Artificer, but they didn't include NPC 1-20 tables for that class), then Artificers who somehow find a way to pump UMD (they have to make a DC 20+CL or 25+SL check, whichever is higher, to cast a spell, though).
    Last projects, from years back: Lesser Disciplines (Tome of Battle). Also, Never Behind the Curve (multiclassing).

    Some of my current work is under the name IGTN on D&D Wiki

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