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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Heck--a high-CR dragon could probably even cast AMF often enough to have it up 24/7, sans permanent emanation.
    Yeah, but that would mean the dragon can't use free action cheese to use his own spells and supernatural abilities. However, as Shneeky pointed out, Spellcraft is not a class skill for true dragons (except blues, which don't reach CL 12th by CR 20), so the dragon will need either 47 hit dice (not possible by CR 20) or a class level.

    Of course, you still have to make sure you jump and snatch or crush the wizard, trapping them in your AMF. Otherwise, they'll still be able to pull off dirty tricks that circumvent AMF like gate cheese, or just escape.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    A Very Old brass with two Wizard (or other caster) levels can manage that build, taking Permanent Emanation as their 30HD feat. Or any dragon with caster level 11 at CR 19, with one sorcerer level inserted earlier in their progression.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Just take the Skill Knowledge feat or something similar, and gain Spellcraft as a class skill.

    Or use something else. I'm sure I've seen several feats from different sourcebooks that let you turn a cross-class skill into a class skill.

    - Saph

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Using the gestalt option could do the trick.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-04-27 at 04:32 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    kpenguin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Blue dragons have spellcraft as a class skill. Its the only dragon that does, though. It has a CR of 19 at very old and a CL of 11. With one sorcerer level, that blue can manage one 6th level spell.... antimagic field
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2007-04-26 at 11:13 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    A dragon that can beat a Level 20 Wizard? No problem. You don't even need class levels.

    First, let's pick us a dragon. We need a dragon capable of casting 6th level spells. I'll pick a Very Old bronze dragon, because it has a CR of a nice round 20, and because I like bronze dragons. They're cute.

    Next step, the core Epic feat: Permanent Emanation.



    Antimagic Field is an emanation. Pick it.

    Voila, permanent antimagic field. Every round, on its turn, the dragon dismisses the antimagic field as a free action, does whatever it wants (casts spells, uses its breath weapon), and restarts it again as another free action.

    The dragon now has near-complete immunity to magic, combined with the ability to use its own magic whenever it wants. The wizard is limited to attacking the dragon with stuff unaffected by an Antimagic Field. The dragon can attack the wizard with whatever it feels like at the time. Attacks, breath weapon, spells, Improved Snatch, crush attacks . . . the works.

    The wizard loses.

    - Saph
    I now see a dragon teaching an obnoxious wizard that he is truly nothing more than a withered old man armed with a book of unpronounceable words, a knobbly stick, and a funny looking hat.... This pleases me greatly.
    Last edited by Belteshazzar; 2007-04-26 at 11:35 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Able Learner is human only, won't help anyway. Education only gives Knowledge skills.

    And yes, a blue dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. But therein lies the catch, as any dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. Given equal CR, the dragon with the highest arcane spellcaster level is going to be the most suited to take down the wizard in any case, so you want a dragon capable of higher level spellcasting at CR 20 than the Very Old Blue Dragon Sorcerer 1.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Since it is obvious how a lvl 20 wizard could beat a CR 20 dragon from the "Wizard vs. Dragon" thread, how could you make/play a dragon in order to beat a wizard.

    The Rules:
    1) Base creature must be one of the "true dragons"
    2) Creature gets equipment equal to that of an NPC of 20th level (220,000 gp)
    3) You may use any class or template, but you must reference the splat book it's from if its noncore
    4) No cheese
    1) Great Wrym Red Dragon + 20 levels of Druid.
    2) Wild Shape into something fun
    3)No none core
    4)20th level druids are only cheesy in so far as druids are cheesy in general.
    5) Dragon wins.

    There we go. I should also point out that you never said the dragon had to be CR20 in return. My result has a CR46 monster fighting a CR20 wizard.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2007-04-26 at 11:43 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by deadseashoals View Post
    And yes, a blue dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. But therein lies the catch, as any dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. Given equal CR, the dragon with the highest arcane spellcaster level is going to be the most suited to take down the wizard in any case, so you want a dragon capable of higher level spellcasting at CR 20 than the Very Old Blue Dragon Sorcerer 1.
    We're talking about a fight in an AMF...Snatch lets you keep it that way...taking down the wizard is a joke once you've got him grappled. Heck, just swallow him, and don't drop the field until he stops twitching.

  10. - Top - End - #40

    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    What if the dragon maxes diplomacy and talks the wizard out of killing him?

  11. - Top - End - #41

    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
    We're talking about a fight in an AMF...Snatch lets you keep it that way...taking down the wizard is a joke once you've got him grappled. Heck, just swallow him, and don't drop the field until he stops twitching.
    Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    kpenguin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Errr... what mechanic of Snatch let's you swallow the wizard? I agree that grappling the wizard while the AMF is one of the best options you could have however.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2007-04-27 at 01:39 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.
    Very true. I could probably come up with a worse idea, with some effort, but that's up there...

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Errr... what mechanic of Snatch let's you swallow the wizard? I agree that grappling the wizard while the AMF is one of the best options you could have however.
    If you're desperate to make that particular dreadful mistake, as Bears pointed out, you add the Improved Snatch (which you need anyway if you're only Huge) and Snatch and Swallow feats from Draconomicon.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
    We're talking about a fight in an AMF...Snatch lets you keep it that way...taking down the wizard is a joke once you've got him grappled. Heck, just swallow him, and don't drop the field until he stops twitching.
    Yes, I'm aware of the trick, I did post about it. However, high level spells = the win, and enable you to get the wizard into a situation where you could actually potentially get to within 5 feet of the wizard. Hence, a higher caster level is desirable. I liked the suggestion to take the Skill Knowledge feat, that would allow any dragon to take Permanent Emanation.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Practiced Spellcaster combined with scrolls make the number of sorcerer ranks much less important, it seems to me. Even the dragons that cast as level 12 sorcerers are still trying to make a DC 18 caster level check with a caster level of 16 to cast level 9 spells from scrolls...not a sure thing, but close.

    While higher casting level is obviously a good thing, what do you really need out of casting as sorc15 instead of sorc12?

    Skill Knowledge is nice if you can get it, but the page it's on only suggests it in the context of alternative skill systems. Dragging that into non-variant play seems a bit sketchy.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    kpenguin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Remember, spellcraft is a cross-class skill for all true dragons except for the blue. This means that in order to qualify for Permanent Emanation, a dragon would have to have something like 50 points put into spellcraft and have HD 47. Since the accepted strategy is essentially to have a permanent antimagic field emanating from the dragon and then melee, the only reason CL comes into play is trying to make sure the Wiz doesn't escape by telporting or dimension dooring or something of that nature. Mmmm... maybe dimension anchor or something like that...
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2007-04-27 at 03:01 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
    Practiced Spellcaster combined with scrolls make the number of sorcerer ranks much less important, it seems to me. Even the dragons that cast as level 12 sorcerers are still trying to make a DC 18 caster level check with a caster level of 16 to cast level 9 spells from scrolls...not a sure thing, but close.

    While higher casting level is obviously a good thing, what do you really need out of casting as sorc15 instead of sorc12?
    Mostly, it cuts back on the resources required to gather information on your targets or enables it at all in some cases (e.g. limited wish + scrying). Plus, no dragon would actually want to burn all those scrolls if it didn't have to. Making a dragon (or any NPC, but especially a dragon) just happen to have on hand the exact right combination of scrolls to cast in sequence in order to obliterate a 20th level wizard, and making him actually expend those resources is pretty unrealistic.

    And what do you really lose out of gaining those caster levels? They're pretty much the only thing you should be optimizing for anyway when choosing the dragon, why not make them high? Very Old Brass Dragon Sorcerer 1 is the same CR as the blue with 1 sorcerer level, and has 2 more caster levels.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    The Flexible Mind Feat would do it with a chaotic alignment for choosing spellcraft as a regular skill from DR326.

    Choose two skills you have ranks in with a chaotic alignment they are always class skills for you now.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-04-27 at 04:24 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Since this was a double post I can't delete the Psuedo Dragonet is a ECL 4 dragon according to the Draconomicon table 3 - 14 dragon cohort chart.

    With the ECL level buy down option at levels 3, 6 and 9 there would be a lot of regular levels to play with making a CR20 dragon.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-04-27 at 04:41 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.
    Unless you slap the source of the AMF on the wizard's boots. Then you have yourself a wizard inside and an AMF, inside a dragon.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    I believe only the Brass dragon can take Permanent Emanation: AMF without class levels. Why? Because to take the feat you must already know the spell. All other dragons take their feat at 30 HD and also gain 6th lvl spells at the same time-so they can't pick PE: AMF because they don't meet the perequisites until AFTER they've taken AMF-and thus after CR 20.

    Also, the Wizard could get Hide From Dragons and a Gate scroll. The dragon cannot detect him. The Wizard can summon a 40 HD outsider to tear the dragon apart.
    Last edited by Ramos; 2007-04-27 at 04:28 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
    I believe only the Brass dragon can take Permanent Emanation: AMF without class levels. Why? Because to take the feat you must already know the spell. All other dragons take their feat at 30 HD and also gain 6th lvl spells at the same time-so they can't pick PE: AMF because they don't meet the perequisites until AFTER they've taken AMF-and thus after CR 20.

    Also, the Wizard could get Hide From Dragons and a Gate scroll. The dragon cannot detect him. The Wizard can summon a 40 HD outsider to tear the dragon apart.
    I already pointed this out, but there is no stipulation on the max CR of the dragon in question. So my hypothetical CR46 level 20 druid Great Wyrm Red dragon pwns the 40HD outsider. And the wizard that summoned it as well.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2007-04-27 at 04:41 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #53

    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    I already pointed this out, but there is no stipulation on the max CR of the dragon in question. So my hypothetical CR46 level 20 druid Great Wyrm Red dragon pwns the 40HD outsider. And the wizard that summoned it as well.
    My! You're so very clever! I guess this discussion is over now!

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    The dragon wins because it has excellent saves, more hit points than God, spell resistance, spellcasting as a sorcerer, the fastest natural fly speed in the game, equipment that it would be stupid not to use, an INT score high enough to ensure that it isn't stupid, an impressive array of natural and supernatural attacks, and is too big to fit in a forcecage. And even if it was, it could in all likelihood disintegrate the blasted thing anyway. If dragons of equal CR aren't the toughest things your party ever has to fight without resorting to creatures of a higher challenge rating than the average party level, then you're doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2007-04-27 at 05:38 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
    Skill Knowledge is nice if you can get it, but the page it's on only suggests it in the context of alternative skill systems. Dragging that into non-variant play seems a bit sketchy.
    Okay, take the Cosmopolitan feat from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting instead. Same result.

    Alternately, take a Very Old Brass Dragon - they have CR 19, 28 HD, and a caster level of 13th. He can have 16 ranks in Spellcraft as a cross-class skill. Give him two Sorcerer levels and give him 6 more ranks in Spellcraft each level. He now has CR 20, 30 HD, a caster level of 15th, and enough Spellcraft to qualify for the Permanent Emanation feat.

    I prefer the "getting it as a class skill" approach, though. Less bookkeeping.

    - Saph

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Alternately, take a Very Old Brass Dragon - they have CR 19, 28 HD, and a caster level of 13th. He can have 16 ranks in Spellcraft as a cross-class skill. Give him two Sorcerer levels and give him 6 more ranks in Spellcraft each level. He now has CR 20, 30 HD, a caster level of 15th, and enough Spellcraft to qualify for the Permanent Emanation feat.
    If I'm doing my reading right, Sorcerer levels count as associated for a dragon with innate casting. So that one runs over CR...that's why I proposed a pair of Wizard levels.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
    If I'm doing my reading right, Sorcerer levels count as associated for a dragon with innate casting.
    Oh, do they? Is that from the SRD, or somewhere else?

    Meh, I prefer the "take feat to get it as a class skill" option, anyway.

    - Saph

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Use the hypertext Skill Knowledge (General Feat) Special option instead of choosing two class skills choose a cross class skill and treat it as a class skill from now on.

    That would be available to all dragons.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2007-04-27 at 07:09 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Oh, do they? Is that from the SRD, or somewhere else?
    MM p294, I couldn't say for the SRD. Under 'advancing monster challenge rating'. Though they do say that they're giving guidelines rather than hard rules, and it makes little sense to say two sorcerer levels are better than getting the same casting benefits by advancing to ancient.

    Class levels that increase a creature's innate casting count as associated, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Meh, I prefer the "take feat to get it as a class skill" option, anyway.

    - Saph
    It is more elegant that way.
    Last edited by Ulzgoroth; 2007-04-27 at 07:11 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Dragon vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Unless you slap the source of the AMF on the wizard's boots. Then you have yourself a wizard inside and an AMF, inside a dragon.
    Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Antimagic Field is always centered caster (10-ft-radius emanation, centered on you to quote the PHB). Furthermore, since it is only of ten foot radius, once the dragon grows beyond large size, the field no longer covers him entirely, leaving him vulnerable to spells.
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