What the Ability Scores Represent:

[Umarth]

Just curious if others view the ability scores in the same way.

This is just a bit of clarification on the ability scores I've added to my player hand out sheet.

What the Ability Scores Represent:
Strength: Strength represents a characters ability to change the world through physical means.
Dexterity: Dexterity represents how well a character moves within the physical world.
Constitution: Constitution represents how well a characters body resists attempts by the physical world to change it.
Intelligence: Intelligence represents how well a character understands the laws of the world around her.
Wisdom: Wisdom represents the passive abilities of a characters mind to observe the outside world, understand the minds of others, and resist mental changes.
Charisma: Charisma represents a characters ability to influence the outside world and others through power of will.

Phsyical & Mental Equivalances:
Strength = Charisma
Both of these reflect a characters ability to change the world.
Dexterity = Intelligence
Both of these reflect an understanding of the world and how to work within it.
Consititution = Wisdom
Both of these represent the ability to resist changes.

Common Misconceptions:
Charisma = Attractiveness: Charisma is not how attractive a character is. Attractiveness is unstated in D&D and even if you have a very low Charisma you could physically be very attractive. An example of this is someone who is pretty but shy.

Wisdom = Will Power: This is especially common since wisdom is the ability tied to the "Will" Save. In D&D Will Power is evenly divided between the two ability scores of Wisdom & Charisma. Wisdom is equal to your inward focused will power while Charisma is equal to outward focused will power.

Intelligence = Your book-learning: Book-learning or any other learning is represented by your skill points not your Intelligence. Intelligence measures cunning, the ability to overcome mental obstacles and come up with plans.

[Suzaku]

Wisdom is your download speed
Intelligence is your processing speed
Charisma is your upload speed

[Tengu]

I always considered intelligence to be the equivalent of strength and charisma the equivalent of dexterity. Strength is raw musclepower, intelligence is raw brainpower.

By the way, attractiveness IS a part of charisma, by RAW description. Maybe not the most important part, but it is. Besides, I've seen too many players play characters with 8-10 charisma (on an NWN server) who were also described as beauty contest winners (for "some" reason almost all of them were female), with NO indication in their roleplaying why do they have such charisma.

[Saph]

I always considered intelligence to be the equivalent of strength and charisma the equivalent of dexterity. Strength is raw musclepower, intelligence is raw brainpower.

I've always seen it that way, too.

- Saph

[Starsinger]

I don't use Intelligence as IQ so much as how fast someone can process things. That means that creatures with 8 average intelligence aren't necessarily stupid, just slow.

Likewise, I use Wisdom as perception of the material plane and the supernatural (which is why it's teh divine casting score). Likewise, I have a homebrew feat for Wisdom called Wise Man, which lets you use Wisdom to determine skill points and as the modifier for knowledge and spellcraft checks.
I'm also a big fan of something I read on here recently, where Wisdom would be the stat for initiative, instead of Dexterity

Charisma, I use as will power and sense of self, which determines how other people see you... Since what people have come to accept as Charisma makes no sense how it fuels spontaneous casting, "So... you cast more spells than that sorcerer because you're prettier / better with people?"

[Tengu]

Since what people have come to accept as Charisma makes no sense how it fuels spontaneous casting, "So... you cast more spells than that sorcerer because you're prettier / better with people?"

Heh, it's slightly ironic that someone with a Flea avatar says that.

Seriously though, I think that innate, non learned magical powers come from the same source as self-confidence needed to be charismatic.

Or, with a pinch of salt: the bigger your charisma, the cooler you are. Cooler characters have better bang, therefore their innate magical powers are better.

[Saph]

Or, with a pinch of salt: the bigger your charisma, the cooler you are. Cooler characters have better bang, therefore their innate magical powers are better.

Exactly. It's like anime: the more outrageous your hairstyle, the more powerful you are.

- Saph

[Starsinger]

Heh, it's slightly ironic that someone with a Flea avatar says that.

Y'know... it never really occurred to me that he's an actual example of being pretty = being a strong mage. Well, I withdraw my comment on Charisma.

[Lord Tataraus]

Wow, thats kind of deep. I use vague terms:
Strength: well, just your physical strength.
Dexterity: how precise you are.
Constitution: your fortitude, health, stamina, etc.
Intelligence: your book-learning, how much you know.
Wisdom: common sense.
Charisma: force of personality.

[Umarth]

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

Eh... so it is in there. To me that doesn’t make any sense. Anime aside, why would someone who has a strong personality be more physically attractive?

On Int = Str
I don't really see intelligence equaling strength.
Here's an example of why.

Physical Challenge: Get past crates blocking an alley.
Strong Character: Push through the crates.
Dexterous Character: Climb over the crates.

Mental Challenge: Get past a guard blocking an alley.
Charismatic Character: Bluff or bully your way past the guard overriding his objections with your force of will.
Intelligent Character: Have a forged document allowing you access.

Both Intelligence and Dexterity seem to allow you to get around obstacles while Strength and Charisma allow you to just push through obstacles.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This is very well thought out. I've mercifully never encountered players who equivocate Charisma with sex appeal, but I know I would be most annoyed by a female character played by someone who claims that charisma affects...ahem...measurements in some way.

By the way, Starsinger, what exactly are the specifications for that Wise Man feat? I think I might want to use that next time I play a paladin or cleric (I'm always frustrated by those 2 + INT bonus classes. I'm always tempted to play humans and to give my characters the highest INT possible because I feel somewhat naked without skills, especially Knowledge(history) for some inexplicable reason ).

[Starsinger]

You may use your Wisdom Modifier instead of your intelligence for the following purposes: determining bonus skill points, languages (only if taken at 1st level), knowledge checks, and spellcraft checks. I've occasionally allowed it on decipher script checks, but that varies based on the content of the script to be deciphered. And I gave it the requirements of Wisdom 13.

[Charity]

Hmm
Straight forward approach.
Physical feat - lift heavy thing - strength
Mental feat - Solve complex puzzle - Intelligence
and
Physical feat - avoid sudden danger - Dexterity
Mental feat - avoid conflict - Charisma
being more comparable.

I can't see the whole Strength - Charisma comparison you are making works all that well Umarth.

[Tengu]

Intelligence: your book-learning, how much you know.

This should go into the "common misconceptions" part. Your book-learning is measured by Knowledge and similar skills. Intelligence measures cunning, the ability to overcome mental obstacles and come up with plans.
On the other hand, I see wisdom as the ability to judge - what are the intentions of this man? Will this plan work?

[Justin_Bacon]

Wisdom is your download speed
Intelligence is your processing speed
Charisma is your upload speed

*yoink*

[Umarth]

Look at how they are avoiding the conflict though Charity. They are doing it by basically over running the other persons will/desires. To me that sounds a whole lot more like Str than Dexterity.

What skill would someone use to solve a complex physical puzzle? (such as juggling).

Being smart let's you do a lot of things in the world by manipulating the world around you to achieve the effect with out expending all the effort yourself.

Being charismatic allows you to use your internal force of will to effect the outside world.

This is a theme that even carries over into Int vs. Cha casting.

Intelligence casters write down the rules and mentally prepare what amounts to pulleys, levers, and other machines to make the universe do their bidding.

Charisma casters use brute force to make the universe do what they want.


:)
Isn't a smart person someone who has a lot of mental agility .
While a charismatic person has a strong force of personality.

[Umarth]

[QUOTE=Tengu;2481220]This should go into the "common misconceptions" part. Your book-learning is measured by Knowledge and similar skills. Intelligence measures cunning, the ability to overcome mental obstacles and come up with plans.QUOTE]

Good call. Added.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You may use your Wisdom Modifier instead of your intelligence for the following purposes: determining bonus skill points, languages (only if taken at 1st level), knowledge checks, and spellcraft checks. I've occasionally allowed it on decipher script checks, but that varies based on the content of the script to be deciphered. And I gave it the requirements of Wisdom 13.

Thanks. Next time I make a wisdom based character I am definately going to ask my DM if this would be acceptable.

[Iudex Fatarum]

I like the charisma and strength comparison. I like a lot of what was said here. I agree that at first appearence and force of will on others doesn't seem to work together very well. If someone who hasn't shaved in 10 days, has breath that smells strongly of garlic, is missing half of their teeth and rags for clothes comes up to you and proposes that you invest with him you arn't going to listen very long if at all. if on the other hand a person clean shaven or a well gromed beard with a suit and tie with italian leather shoes walks up and asks you to invest with him you're going to take him out to coffee and listen. appearence does affect a character's ability to persuade among other things. At least it changes initial impressions. if someone who is beautiful but not suave at all goes up to a girl and asks her out she is going to turn it down (unless desperate normaly) but same in reverse, if a guy who is a super model but anoying asks her out she is still going to turn him down, its a combination that will persuade her.

but i do like the force of will on others to be charisma. I would also say that charisma makes spont caster's better because first of all its a different stat and DnD is complex enough as is. second if it is their ability to manipulate people then they can manipulate nature in the same way, its mostly instinctual. intellegence is being able to manipulate via study, just like if a character uses knowledge correctly i'd give a huge circumstance bonus to diplomacy because he is manipulating via smarts.

[Umarth]

I agree that at first appearence and force of will on others doesn't seem to work together very well. If someone who hasn't shaved in 10 days, has breath that smells strongly of garlic, is missing half of their teeth and rags for clothes comes up to you and proposes that you invest with him you arn't going to listen very long if at all. if on the other hand a person clean shaven or a well gromed beard with a suit and tie with italian leather shoes walks up and asks you to invest with him you're going to take him out to coffee and listen. appearence does affect a character's ability to persuade among other things.

Not disagreeing with you on appearance being a modifier on social interactions but what the PHB says is it's your physical appearance. Certainly the first character would have a -4 or so on their diplomacy role.

So Paris Hilton is better using her amazing personal force of will to change the world and other peoples minds than someone like Hitler who was funny looking (crap... brought up Hitler and just doomed the thread).

[Starsinger]

Except Hitler had Leadership and ranks in charisma skills, whereas Paris Hilton put her ranks in Profession: Tramp*


* This statement is purely humor if you like Paris Hilton. Otherwise, it's my honest opinion

[CoolMatthew]

Wisdom is your download speed
Intelligence is your processing speed
Charisma is your upload speed

My new signature!

[BardicDuelist]

I don't use Intelligence as IQ so much as how fast someone can process things. That means that creatures with 8 average intelligence aren't necessarily stupid, just slow.

Likewise, I use Wisdom as perception of the material plane and the supernatural (which is why it's teh divine casting score). Likewise, I have a homebrew feat for Wisdom called Wise Man, which lets you use Wisdom to determine skill points and as the modifier for knowledge and spellcraft checks.
I'm also a big fan of something I read on here recently, where Wisdom would be the stat for initiative, instead of Dexterity

Actually, according to your description, shouldn't INT be used for initiative? Since if you process things faster, you can react quicker?

[Suzaku]

But you Dex is the ability to deliver information to and from your Int and the rest of your body.

[Kioran]

You forget the most important thing about the abilities: They are at least supposed to be balanced, hence Charisma as Caster-Stat or for supernatural Abilities like turning.....
The boni applied for high attributes can vary pretty much if you interpret them differently (see initiative debate). I interpret them like this:

Strength: Raw physical power, with influences on your speed and stamina since less things slow you down. Should, if it exceeds 14, be comsumate with an increase in weight

Constitution: Stamina, resilence of your metabolism and resistance to mechanical forces inflicted on your body. Would also include your pain threshold and mental strength(in the sense of pushing yourself through painful exertion). Does not have much influence on the Characters looks (apart from massively under- or overweight characters hardly qualifying for high con).

Dexterity: Should be split into two scores in my oppinion, Dexterity for fine works and Agility for speed and "larger" movement. As it is, it stands for both, and since it affects reflexes it should also have bearing on initiative. I for once, don´t initially react consciously in threatenig situations, operating on instinct in the first few seconds. I think, however, it represents too far a stretch of things for just one stat and is a poor fit......
Apperance-wise this is the same as con: You need a certain amount of muscle, but cannot aford to be weighed down by too much dead weight. i think you still tend be more lean with high Dex though.

Intelligence: If rated as true intelligence, IT is your brainpower and your ability to process information. Characters with low intelligence might not be stupid in the most unfavorable sense, they might, however, fail to able to interpret information and be slow on the uptake. Intelligence of some sort is certainly require of a loqacious and intriguing charcters - for low-int Chars, there´s one liners....
However, high intelligence does (as in my case) not translate to common sense or "smarts", just to knowing stuff and being able to draw conclusions. I think it´s unsuited as a caster stat - I see no reason why casters should be required to be intelligent in the first place, I´d use a "mana" stat for that one.....

Wisdom: Is awareness and common sense. Also a measure of confidence, thus appropriate for divine casters, at least to a certain degree. A wise characters is not necessarily smart, he just knows the right moments to think or act.

Charisma: In principle only loosely related to appearance (someone of mediocre appearance could still be a fascinating person, and vice versa). Your appearance or Charisma should not contradict each other (looking like dog**** with Cha 18 or being a supermodel with Cha 4 for example), but that´s about the size of it. I´d make good looks a Feat actually, with bonuses to some skills like Perform or Bluff......
Most of the Charisma is confidence and force of personality, and if you ask me especially confidence has a huge influence on how people, especially those of the other Gender, see you. It also opens the door to justifying it as caster Stat - confidence in your abilites for more ease of use.....
Sad this is a dump stat for most. Would make it a line of Feats and remove this as the ability which most can drop without second thought.

Anyway, this is how I see it....

[Dhavaer]

Strength: Ability to exert physical power and force. Punching and lifting respectively.

Dexterity: Precision of movement. Coordination and steadiness.

Constitution: Pain threshold and raw durability. Also immune system.

Intelligence: Speed and complexity of thought and memory. Could be described as the length of 'If' statements you are able to consciously compute. Int 4 could just about grasp 'If I yank tablecloth, things on table fall down'. Int 36 could simulate a complex economy in their head.

Wisdom: Perception. Ability to interpret input of any kind.

Charisma: Force of personality. Makes people notice you, and feel more strongly about what you do.

[Tengu]

Charisma: In principle only loosely related to appearance (someone of mediocre appearance could still be a fascinating person, and vice versa). Your appearance or Charisma should not contradict each other (looking like dog**** with Cha 18 or being a supermodel with Cha 4 for example), but that´s about the size of it.

That's a very good interpretation of the connection between charisma and appearance, and one I could agree with.

[The_Werebear]

Just to balance the scores so it would hurt to dumpstat anything, I went back and adjusted what I thought each score went to. Each one affects three things other than skills they give bonuses to.

Strength- Pure force. Even if you are using lighter weapons, it his how hard and fast you can jab as well.
Affects- +to hit in melee, +to damage with all weapons, carrying capacity.

Dexterity- Nimbleness and agility. It is both how well you can manipulate things, as well as ducking and dodging.
Affects- +to AC, +to hit at range, + Reflex

Constitution- Pain tolerance, toughness, hardiness, and endurance.
Affects- +to HP, +to Fort saves, need one more.

Intelligence- Pure mental power. It is how well you can literally force your brain to do something.
Affects- +to Skills, +to Wizard Casting(Finding where to punch the universe in the kidney, and then slamming it as hard as you can with all your brainpower), +to damage with int based spells.

Wisdom- Mental dexterity. It affects how well your mind can react and move, as well as taking in the environment.
Affects- +to Initiative(how well you can react to the environemnt) +to Divine spellcasting (how well you suck up to the gods and channel their power.), +damage of divine based spells

Charisma- Your personality, and how well you can maintain it under duress. Does not affect appearance.
Affects- +to Will Saves, +to some spellcasting (channeling the universe over your personality and directing it without being mentally crushed, this with no specific knowledge of what you are doing), +to charisma spell damage.

[Kioran]

Just to balance the scores so it would hurt to dumpstat anything, I went back and adjusted what I thought each score went to. Each one affects three things other than skills they give bonuses to.

Strength- Pure force. Even if you are using lighter weapons, it his how hard and fast you can jab as well.
Affects- +to hit in melee, +to damage with all weapons, carrying capacity.

Dexterity- Nimbleness and agility. It is both how well you can manipulate things, as well as ducking and dodging.
Affects- +to AC, +to hit at range, + Reflex

Constitution- Pain tolerance, toughness, hardiness, and endurance.
Affects- +to HP, +to Fort saves, need one more.

Intelligence- Pure mental power. It is how well you can literally force your brain to do something.
Affects- +to Skills, +to Wizard Casting(Finding where to punch the universe in the kidney, and then slamming it as hard as you can with all your brainpower), +to damage with int based spells.

Wisdom- Mental dexterity. It affects how well your mind can react and move, as well as taking in the environment.
Affects- +to Initiative(how well you can react to the environemnt) +to Divine spellcasting (how well you suck up to the gods and channel their power.), +damage of divine based spells

Charisma- Your personality, and how well you can maintain it under duress. Does not affect appearance.
Affects- +to Will Saves, +to some spellcasting (channeling the universe over your personality and directing it without being mentally crushed, this with no specific knowledge of what you are doing), +to charisma spell damage.

What you propose isn´t balancing, but further unhinging things. The Boni aren´t equally strong. The HP-Bonus given by con is much to high - it´s the nr 2 styt for everyone, and that´s just plain broken. You get much more HP through con than through your ice, any can below 12 is gimping. that doesn´t quite work out.
Balancing would be reducing bonus HP and damges accordingly.

And the mental stats? Don´t make them even stronger as caster stats. Everyone else will still dump them, while overpowered casters get nifty bonuses.....
If you want to hurt Min/Maxers who dump them, give these stats more of something everyone can enjoy, even mundane Characters like rogues and Fighters.....

[The_Werebear]

Yeah, I was mostly messing around to try and tinker with the system for an RPG I was trying to make, but I gave up on it.

Something not mentioned was that anyone could pick up a spell or three in it, so the bonuses to casting weren't so exclusive.