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    Default "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Magic -- both arcane and divine -- has them. Psionics has them. I think Incarnum might have them too but I never really looked at Incarnum. So anyway, why shouldn't martial adepts have them?

    I think that, if properly implimented, they might well narrow the gap between spell-casters and martial adept classes (if anyone thinks ToB classes are on par with Wizards take a look at their spell list and be disillusioned. Time Stands Still vs. Time Stop eh?). With this in mind, I set myself to creating some sort of concept for "meta-maneuver" feats. Well, this is what I came up with.
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    Martial Augments
    A [Martial Augment] feat allows you to augment your maneuvers and stances in some way. Rather than a direct augmentation (such as Maximizing damage), most of these feats allow you to initiate boosts as free actions, initiate two strikes in a row, and so forth.
    [Martial Augment] feats expend additional maneuvers besides those they augment due to the toll they take upon the initiator. Treat maneuvers expended this way as if they were initiated, except that you do not also gain the benefits of the maneuvers. Note that you are limited to expending 1 maneuver per 4 initiator levels per round when using [Martial Augment] feats.
    Many [Martial Augment] feats require a skill check to be made or for you to be in a certain stance they are are connected to a certain discipline. Unless noted otherwise, skill checks made as a part of [Martial Augment] feats require no action.

    Crusaders:
    Crusaders may expend their withheld maneuvers and thus may be granted maneuvers that are already expended. If you are granted a maneuver you have already expended you do not gain a maneuver to replace it -- in effect, you gain nothing.

    Extra Augments [General]
    You gain augment points with which you may freely augment your maneuvers.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 4th, One Martial Augment feat, (Int, Wis, or Cha 15).
    Benefit: When you pick this feat you gain your highest mental ability score modifier in augment points. These points may be sacrificed instead of martial maneuvers to use Martial Augment feats. These points, however, are not maneuvers. You cannot initiate them nor can they be recovered through methods that recover maneuvers. Instead, all are automatically recovered by meditating for 1d4 hours (roll for all augment points together).

    Augment Mastery [Genera]
    You may invest more maneuvers in Martial Augments/.
    Prerequisites: One Martial Augment feat, Wis 13, Initiator level 12th.
    Benefit: You are limited to expending one third of your initiator level in maneuvers per round to power your Martial Augment feats.
    Normal: You are limited to expending one quarter of your initiator level in maneuvers per round to power your Martial Augment feats.

    Instant Boost [Martial Augment]
    You may instantaneously initiate a boost with but the slightest bit of concentration.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 8th, one Diamond Mind stance, Concentration 12, Two Diamond Mind maneuvers.
    Benefit: While in a Diamond Mind stance you may make a Concentration check to initiate a boost as a free action. The Difficulty Class of this Concentration check is 20 + the boost's level. If this check is a failure you initiate the boost as a swift action and lose one of your other readied maneuvers. If this check is a success you initiate the boost as a free action and lose 3 of your other readied maneuvers. You may use this feat to initiate only one boost per round as a free action.
    Normal: Boosts require a swift action to initiate.

    Immediate Boost [Martial Augment]

    You may ready a boost and initiate it as an immediate action.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 8th, one Diamond Mind stance, Concentration 12, Two Diamond Mind maneuvers.
    Benefit: While in a Diamond Mind stance you may choose one boost as a free action during your turn. You may initiate this boost as an immediate action by making a Concentration check (DC 20 + the boost's level) at any time after the end of your current turn until the beginning of your next turn. Successfully initiating a boost as an immediate action expends two additional maneuvers.
    A boost with the duration of '1 round' initiated while it is not your turn lasts until the end of your next turn. A boost with the duration of 'End of turn' lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

    Intensify Inferno [Martial Augment]
    You may intensify the fires you create.
    Prerequisites: Three Desert Wind maneuvers, Initiator level 6th.
    Benefit: You may take a free action to intensify the fire damage you deal for 1 round. In order to do so you must expend one of your readied maneuvers. For the rest of the round, whenever you deal fire damage the fire damage ignores fire resistance and immunity. This feat does not effect fire damage from spells.

    Stance Duality [Martial Augment]
    You may exist in two different stances concurrently at the expenditure of some of your abilities.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 9th, Martial Lore 12, Two Maneuvers.
    Benefit: When you enter a stance you can take a free action to enter an additional stance. Every round Stance Duality is active you must make a Martial Lore check to maintain both stances (DC 15 + level of both stances). A successful check allows you to gain the benefits of both stances and expends two of your readied maneuvers. A failed check allows you to gain the benefits of only one stance and expends one of your readied maneuvers.
    At the beginning of a turn you may choose not to make a Martial Lore check and thus exit one of your stances without taking an action and without expending maneuvers.
    Normal: Normally (unless you have the Dual Stance ability of the Warblade or Master of Nine) you can only be in one stance at a time.

    Double Strike [Martial Augment]
    Your mastery of battle has taught you how to merge two different combat maneuvers into a single one.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 12th, one stance, Two maneuvers, Martial Lore 15.
    Benefit: While in any martial stance you may take a full round action to initiate one of your strikes. The strike must require a standard action to initiate. While initiating this strike you may initiate an additional strike that requires a standard action to initiate (the two strikes are initiated together so that one does not effect the other) by making a skill check at the difficulty class of 20 + the level of both strikes. The skill involved is the highest level strike's discipline skill. If this check is successful you initiate the second maneuver as intended and expend 4 additional maneuvers. If this check fails you fail to initiate the second maneuver and expend 1 additional maneuver.

    Rushing Mountain [Martial Augment]
    You may rush at a foe and initiate a strike.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 8th, one Stone Dragon stance, Two Stone Dragon maneuvers.
    Benefit: While in a Stone Dragon stance you can take a full round action to charge an enemy and, instead of making a melee attack against the target, initiate a strike. The strike must require a standard action to initiate and must involve at least one melee attack. One of the strike's targets must be the enemy you charge at. If the maneuver involves more than one melee attack you may direct this second attack at an additional enemy if you wish. You gain the effects of the charge against all the enemies you strike as a part of the initiated maneuver.

    Volcanic Synergy [Martial Augment]
    you can channel the energies of the desert into strikes of other disciplines.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 8th, one Desert Wind stance, Two Desert Wind maneuvers.
    Benefit: While in a Desert Wind stance you may initiate a strike with the initiation time of a standard action, one that requires a single melee attack, and one that has a single target. If the strike hits you may make a Tumble check (DC 20 + the level of the initiated strike). On success you deal 1d6 points of fire damage per level of the initiated strike in a 5-foot burst and expend 2 of your readied maneuvers. If the check fails you deal 1d4 points of extra fire damage to the target of the strike and lose one of your readied maneuvers.

    Joint Maneuver [Martial Augment]
    You can communicate a maneuver to an ally while initiating it.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 12th, White Raven stance, Two White Raven maneuvers.
    Benefit: While in a White Raven stance you may initiate a maneuver and allow one ally within 10 feet to initiate the same maneuver against the same target (unless the target is personal, in which case the ally initiates the maneuver on himself). This is done by making a Diplomacy check (DC 20 + twice the maneuver's level). If this check is successful the ally initiates the maneuver as an immediate action (treat his initiator level as his hit dice) and you expend 4 additional maneuvers. If the check fails the ally wastes an immediate action but does not initiate the maneuver. You initiate the maneuver as normal, however, and also expend an additional maneuver.
    If your ally's hit dice are less than the initiator level required to access the maneuver or if the ally cannot detect you you automatically fail the Diplomacy check.

    Well, what do you think? Obviously, there should be more Martial Augment feats but currently I just want an opinion about the concept.

    Edited feats in general... added some skill use, some new feats.

    Removed 4 round recovery restriction (reason: I thought it was too steep -- practically makes you lose your maneuvers for the rest of the encounter, almost. Maybe I should make it a 1d4 round recovery restriction and have a feat that will lower it by -1?)

    Wording... also, Joint Maneuver.


    Augment Points
    Every character with initiator levels gains half her initiator level in Augment Points. These points may be expended to power [Martial Augment] feats – feats that allow you to use advanced forms of your maneuvers. A character can regain her Augment Points by meditating for 5 minutes.

    Martial Augment feats

    The aforementioned [Martial Augment] feats may also require a Martial Lore check that tests your familiarity with the advanced form in question. If you succeed on this check you may initiate the maneuver in its augmented state, paying the standard Augment Point cost. If you fail the check you fail to initiate as intended, though you may perform some other action (as written in the description of the Martial Augment feat).
    You do not expend augment points for failing a Martial Lore check as a part of using a Martial Augment feat unless its description explicitly states otherwise.

    Master of Martial Lore [Martial Augment]
    You gain additional Augment Points.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 6th, Martial Lore 9, two Maneuvers.
    Benefit: You gain a number of Augment Points that equals your highest mental ability score modifier.

    Dual Stance [Martial Augment]
    You can enter an additional stance.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 6th, Martial Lore 9, two Maneuvers.
    Benefit: When entering a stance you can take a free action to enter an additional stance, thus allowing you to be in two or more stances at the same time. Every round this ability is active you must make a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + level of both stances). If you succeed you gain the benefits of both stances and pay the Augment Point cost. Otherwise, you gain the benefit of only one stance of your choice.
    Normal: You can enter only one stance unless you have the Dual Stance ability of the Master of Nine or Warblade. In addition, entering a stance requires a swift action.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 3 Augment Points.
    This feat stacks with other abilities that allow you to enter more than one stance.

    Instant Boost [Martial Augment]
    You can instantly initiate a boost.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 6th, Martial Lore 9, two maneuvers.
    Benefit: Once per round you may attempt to initiate one of your boosts as a free action. This requires a Martial Lore check with the difficulty class of 20 + twice the level of the boost.
    Normal: Initiating a boost requires a swift action.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 3 Augment Points.

    Ready Boost [Martial Augment]
    You can prepare a boost ahead of time.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 6th, Martial Lore 9, two maneuvers.
    Benefit: Once per round you can take a free action to designate one of your boosts and make a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + twice the boost's level). If this check is successful you may initiate the boost at any time before the beginning of your next turn as an immediate action as if it was a Counter and in doing so pay the Augment Point cost.
    Normal: Initiating a boost requires a swift action.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 2 Augment Points.

    Extend Boost [Martial Augment]
    You can double the duration of one of your boosts.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 6th, Martial Lore 9, two maneuvers.
    Benefit: By making a Martial Lore check while initiating a boost you may attempt to double its duration, but only of it is 1 round. The difficulty class of the check is 20 + twice the level of the boost.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 3 Augment Points.

    Boost Companion [Martial Augment]
    You can affect an ally with one of your boosts.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 6th, Martial Lore 9, two maneuvers.
    Benefit: When initiating a boost with the target of 'self' you can make a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + twice the level of the boost) to effect an ally within 5 feet/4 initiator levels with the boost instead of yourself. If the boost requires some sort of choice to be made (for example, Shadow Blink requires the initiator to choose which square to teleport to) it is made by the new target of the boost.
    Normal: Boosts with the target of 'self' can effect only yourself when initiated.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 3 Augment Points.

    Double Strike [Martial Augment]
    You can initiate two strikes in a row.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 9th, Martial Lore 12, three maneuvers.
    Benefit: As a full round action you may initiate two strikes, both of which must have the initiation time of one standard action. The strikes are initiated together so that one does not affect the other. This ability requires a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + the level of both strikes).
    If you fail you initiate only one strike of your choice as a part of the full round action. The other strike is not expended, however.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 4 Augment Points.

    Resounding Dragon Hammer [Martial Augment]
    You can create powerful, destructive shockwaves with your Stone Dragon strikes.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 9th, two Stone Dragon maneuvers, one Stone Dragon stance, Martial Lore 12, Balance 12.
    Benefit: While in a Stone Dragon stance and initiating a strike you can create a powerful shockwave by making a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + twice the strike's level). This wave can deal damage in one of the following forms (your choice), centered on the first creature to take damage from the strike (if any).

    Code:
    Area                                    Damage (Sonic)
    5 foot Burst                    1d6 per level of the strike
    10-foot Burst                  1d6 per two levels of the strike
    20-foot Burst                  1d6 per three levels of the strike

    Creatures caught in the burst effect can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + strike's level + your Strength modifier) to take half damage.
    At any rate, any creature in a Stone Dragon stance does not suffer any damage from this effect.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 5 Augment Points.

    Inspire Maneuver [Martial Augment]
    You can allow an ally to initiate the maneuver you initiate.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 9th, two White Raven maneuvers, one White Raven stance, Martial Lore 12, Diplomacy 12.
    Benefit: Once per round when initiating a maneuver while in a White Raven stance you can make a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + twice the level of the maneuver) to temporarily 'teach' the maneuver to one ally within 10 feet. The ally gains a readied version of the maneuver for 1 round if the check is successful. If the ally already has the maneuver readied, however, he does not gain the ability to use it again. Treat the maneuver's initiator level as if it was equal to the creature's Hit Dice.
    A maneuver granted this way cannot be used to fulfill prerequisites and cannot be augmented through Martial Augment feats.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 5 Augment Points.

    Steel Master's Assault [Martial Augment]
    You can exchange your normal attacks for martial strikes.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 9th, two Iron Heart maneuvers, one Iron Heart stance, Martial Lore 12, Balance 12.
    Benefit: Once a round while in an Iron Heart stance you can attempt to initiate a strike that normally requires a standard action and involves an attack roll as an attack action so that it can be made whenever you would normally be allowed to make a melee attack. To initiate the strike you must make a Martial Lore check with the difficulty class of 20 + twice the strike's level. If you fail the strike fails as well (it is not expended), though you still waste an attack action.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 4 Augment Points.

    Volcanic Synergy [Martial Augment]
    You can create powerful infernos through the use of martial strikes.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 9th, two Desert Wind maneuvers, on Desert Wind stance, Martial Lore 12, Tumble 12.
    Benefit: When initiating a strike while in a Desert Wind stance you can make a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + twice the level of the maneuver) to create a 15-foot cone or 30-foot line of fire that starts from your square, with the first target of the strike as a part of its area (otherwise, you can decide where to aim the cone). The cone or line deals 1d8 points of fire damage per level of the initiated strike, though creatures can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + the strike's level + your Dexterity modifier) to take half damage.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 4 Augment Points.

    Focused Mind [Martial Augment]
    You are constantly under the effects of a boost, though they are hidden from others.
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 12th, Martial Lore 15, two Diamond Mind maneuvers, one Diamond Mind stance.
    Benefit: You may take a minute to prepare your mind and body to your next encounter, allowing you to start it with one boost already initiated. If you are in a Diamond Mind stance, at the start of the encounter, before rolling initiative (in fact, before anyone has acted yet) make a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + twice the maneuver's level). If this check is a success treat the boost as active until the end of your next turn, as long as it has a duration. If it does not have a duration this ability does nothing.
    Normal: Initiating a boost requires a swift action, and thus is not usable until your first action.
    Special: This Martial Augment costs 6 Augment Points.


    Last edited by IonizedChicken; 2007-05-04 at 07:28 AM. Reason: Changed lots of stuff.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    just no, seen people try to do this on other boards and its just silly. They are not casters, don't compare them to casters, thats the problem with class's in general. The fighter isnt a caster so it sucks, and the list goes on. Incarnum dosnt have them, psionics arnt that great, and neither are the metapsionic feats. I think they are a terrible idea, and some of them are very powerful for a feat, heck some of them should only be given as a PrC. All in all bad form sir.
    Last edited by Innis Cabal; 2007-04-26 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    It seems to me that these are only useful to swordsages. Warblades and crusaders have very limited maneuvers, why would they use them up faster with these? It also seems to step on the toes of their class's capstone abilities, except Double Strike.

    If you can come up with more innovative metamartial feats, though, this seems like a good idea. Mabye a set that grants a discipline-related ability?
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    I like these in theory, but I think the execution suffers a bit.

    These could have been done much better, by basing them off existing Metamagic and Metapsionics; make the feats usable once per encounter (you regain them only when you recover maneuvers between encounters; recovery through a class recovery method, the Adaptive Style feat, or a feat to recover a maneuver does not help).

    Then you can get things like:
    Enlarge Maneuver [ Metamaneuver ]
    You can apply your maneuvers at an extended range.
    Prerequisite: One martial maneuver
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you initiate a martial maneuver with a range greater than Melee Attack, you can apply this feat to double its range.
    Special: If this feat is applied to a stance, such as Leading the Charge, the stance is initiated as a boost with a duration of one round. You are still considered to be in that stance, however, and so cannot be in another stance (unless you can be in two at once). If range and area are interrelated (as with Ballista Throw or Leading the Charge) you must apply Widen Maneuver to enhance the area along with the range (an Enlarged Ballista Throw would throw the target 120', but would only damage others in the first 60')

    Extend Maneuver [ Metamaneuver ]
    Your maneuvers can last phenomenally long
    Prerequisite: One martial boost
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you initiate a martial maneuver, you may double its duration. A duration of "End of Turn" becomes "One Round," allowing you to benefit from it even when it is not your turn.

    Maximize Maneuver [ Metamaneuver ]
    You can deliver a maneuver to maximum effect
    Prerequisites: Two Martial Strikes from different disciplines, one of which must be 2nd level or higher, two Metamaneuver feats.
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you initiate a martial maneuver that inflicts a random amount of damage, you may use this feat to instead inflict the maximum amount of damage. This does not apply to normal weapon damage.
    Special: A mighty, maximized maneuver inflicts maximum damage, plus half of the normal, rolled damage.

    Mighty Maneuver [ Metamaneuver ]
    You can deliver a maneuver with a mighty blow.
    Prerequisite: One martial strike, any other Metamaneuver feat.
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you initiate a martial maneuver that inflicts damage, you may use this feat to multiply all variable damage inflicted by 1.5. Do not multiply normal weapon damage, even if the maneuver also inflicts normal weapon damage.
    Special: A mighty, maximized maneuver inflicts maximum damage, plus half of the normal, rolled damage.

    Quicken Maneuver [ Metamaneuver ]
    Prerequisite: Four martial strikes, three other Metamaneuver feats.
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you initiate a martial strike with an initiation action of one standard action that requires that you make a melee attack, you may make all extra attacks granted by sources such as feats, Haste, or a high base attack bonus. The strike provides no special benefits to your additional attacks. Initiating a maneuver this way is a full-round action.

    Widen Maneuver [ Metamaneuver ]
    Prerequisite: Three martial strikes, Enlarge Maneuver, one other Metamaneuver feat.
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you initiate a martial maneuver with an area of effect greater than your melee reach, you may increase all dimensions of its area of effect, except line width, by 100%.
    Special: In some cases (such as when range and area are interrelated), you must apply both this feat and Enlarge Maneuver to benefit from this feat.
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    now those look better, tried and trued..though i still do not like the idea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    just no, seen people try to do this on other boards and its just silly. They are not casters, don't compare them to casters, thats the problem with class's in general. The fighter isnt a caster so it sucks, and the list goes on. Incarnum dosnt have them, psionics arnt that great, and neither are the metapsionic feats. I think they are a terrible idea, and some of them are very powerful for a feat, heck some of them should only be given as a PrC. All in all bad form sir.
    I'm somewhat confused by your post. Why are meta-maneuver feats a silly concept? Because maneuvers shouldn't be treated as spells? One could say they are not. They are given separate feats that augment their abilities. What's wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by thevorpalbunny View Post
    It seems to me that these are only useful to swordsages. Warblades and crusaders have very limited maneuvers, why would they use them up faster with these? It also seems to step on the toes of their class's capstone abilities, except Double Strike.

    If you can come up with more innovative metamartial feats, though, this seems like a good idea. Mabye a set that grants a discipline-related ability?
    While Swordsages gain many more readied maneuvers than Warblades you must remember than the Warblade's recovery method requires a mere swift action with a full attack, while swordsages need to take an entire full-round action to regain their maneuvers (and you need a feat to do even that). This means that if a Swordsage blows through his maneuvers quickly he will be in a much worse position than a Warblade who does so, so both classes must strike some sort of balance. Ideally, a Swordsage should never need to recover this maneuvers in an encounter, since that means a round of doing nothing at all.

    As for stepping of the toes of capstone abilities, well I think the 'capstone' abilities of the Swordsage and the Warblade are necessary for every martial adept character to equal casters in power and versatility, at least in some degree. And they may not step on their toes -- a character with the Dual Boost class ability may use Sudden Boost to initiate three boosts in a single round. A Warblade may be able to enter three stances at once with the Stance Duality feat and his own Dual Stance class ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Got_This_Name View Post
    I like these in theory, but I think the execution suffers a bit.

    These could have been done much better, by basing them off existing Metamagic and Metapsionics; make the feats usable once per encounter (you regain them only when you recover maneuvers between encounters; recovery through a class recovery method, the Adaptive Style feat, or a feat to recover a maneuver does not help).

    Then you can get things like:
    *Snip*[Feats]*Snip*
    Could you please explain what you think is bad about expending maneuvers to enhance others? Do you think the concept is overpowered? If so, show me some proof.

    Alright, I linked some of my feats to various disciplines and added another one. They also require skill checks now, which I think is sort of cool, but I dunno.
    Last edited by IonizedChicken; 2007-04-27 at 05:09 AM. Reason: Editing about the edit...
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    The problem with requiring the use of skill checks (such as balance) to initiate two maneuvers at the same time is that they may have absolutely nothing to do with the enumerated skill. For instance, a white raven maneuver and a devoted spirit heal - requiring a balance check?

    It's an easy fix though: Require a DC 15+Level check for each strike - the skill required is the discipline's core skill.

    So, tiger claw + diamond mind = A Jump + Concentration check.

    That said, I like where you're headed! The problem, as was hinted at before, is that your feats are very discipline-specific, whereas 'Enlarge Spell' works on whatever school of magic it's applied to.

    So, something like that would be wonderful - Instant and Immediate boost, for instance, wouldn't require Diamond Mind maneuvers - instead, something of the same school expended, and then make a check with that discipline's class skill.

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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Tying it to a discipline was a new change actually, and one I think should stay. Maybe not through skill checks, but having feats tied to disciplines gives a better feel to the meta feats. For example, I don't like metapsionic feats because they are all the same as metamagic feats. The meta feats should add to the identity of the flavor. I think that making new feats tied to the disciplines is the way to go, not reworking old feats to affect maneuvers and require specific disciplines.
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Yes, I see what you mean Legoman. Some of these feats should be a little more general. Not all of them though. I rather like that Instant and Immediate Boost are connected to the Diamond Mind discipline.

    Right, so I made Double Steel (Strike) more general. It now doesn't require anything Iron Heart. I like how the rest are associated with disciplines though.
    Last edited by IonizedChicken; 2007-04-27 at 03:15 PM.
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Quote Originally Posted by IonizedChicken View Post
    Could you please explain what you think is bad about expending maneuvers to enhance others? Do you think the concept is overpowered? If so, show me some proof.
    Personally, I don't think expending additional maneuvers isn't that bad. However, your 'pseudomaneuver' feat is just bleh in terms of clarity.

    Wouldn't it be simpler to run it like luck feats, allowing you to use metamaneuvers once per encounter per metamaneuver feat, and Extra Augments (said 'pseudomaneuver' feat) can simply read 'you may use metamaneuvers an additional 3 times in an encounter'?

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    the problem is that making meta feats for them does, in fact, link them to spells. Name one type of metafeat that does not refer to a spell or spell like ability(Not the Sp, like psionics). If you can find one non-home brewed example i will eat my hat.
    They are silly, why do you need feats to make them better? They are good as they are, without such limits they would outshine any fighter more then they already do. And before you say that metamagic feats are silly lets not forget that spells are limited to a per day ability, not every encounter, and even if the wizard and sorcerer are "overpowered" lets not put the martial adepts on that plane shall we?
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    the problem is that making meta feats for them does, in fact, link them to spells. Name one type of metafeat that does not refer to a spell or spell like ability(Not the Sp, like psionics). If you can find one non-home brewed example i will eat my hat.
    They are silly, why do you need feats to make them better? They are good as they are, without such limits they would outshine any fighter more then they already do. And before you say that metamagic feats are silly lets not forget that spells are limited to a per day ability, not every encounter, and even if the wizard and sorcerer are "overpowered" lets not put the martial adepts on that plane shall we?
    Well, you don't have to use them. Things like these are about options, much, in fact, like metamagic feats themselves are.

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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    The wizard's power has precious little to do with metamagics.

    I designed my system the way I did because that's where the precedent is; I based it off the Shadowcaster's Metashadow feats (which, incidentally, apply to (su) abilities), or the Sudden Metamagics, except that they can't be taken multiple times, but can be used once/encounter rather than once/day (just like how maneuvers are limited by encounter).
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    the problem is that making meta feats for them does, in fact, link them to spells. Name one type of metafeat that does not refer to a spell or spell like ability(Not the Sp, like psionics). If you can find one non-home brewed example i will eat my hat.
    They are silly, why do you need feats to make them better? They are good as they are, without such limits they would outshine any fighter more then they already do. And before you say that metamagic feats are silly lets not forget that spells are limited to a per day ability, not every encounter, and even if the wizard and sorcerer are "overpowered" lets not put the martial adepts on that plane shall we?
    Well, in practice, I never 'called' them meta-maneuver feats. I called them Maneuver Augment feats. In the 'official' (as official as it can be) description of the feats there is no reference to meta-magic feats at all. Honestly, their effects are even completely different. I tried to stay as far as possible away from meta-magic feats.

    And the reason I need feats to make them better? Because, when compared to casters, they are not that good, and my goal is for them to equal the casters. If martial adept characters became equal to casters they would be much more powerful than others melee classes. This will make them more powerful, yes, but in a game where characters are restricted to only Tome of Battle classes or in a game in which Tome of Battle maneuver rules are house ruled into other classes (the Fighter for instance) it will only contribute to game balance, not detract from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Got_This_Name View Post
    The wizard's power has precious little to do with metamagics.

    I designed my system the way I did because that's where the precedent is; I based it off the Shadowcaster's Metashadow feats (which, incidentally, apply to (su) abilities), or the Sudden Metamagics, except that they can't be taken multiple times, but can be used once/encounter rather than once/day (just like how maneuvers are limited by encounter).
    Well, for one I never claimed the Wizard's power had anything to do with meta-magic feats, though it's hard to say they do not help.
    And there is another problem: as you say, Wizards do not draw their power from meta-magic feats. Thus, making meta-maneuver feats that are identical to meta-magic feats will likely not help martial adepts that much either.

    Edit
    Do you think the following method for implementing these feats is a better idea?

    Maneuver Augments
    [Maneuver Augment] feats allow you to improve your maneuvers by wasting Augment Points. If you have any Martial Augment feat you gain 1 Augment point per two initiator levels and some feats may grant you additional augment points.
    Wasting Augment Points and using Martial Augments never requires an action as it is always a part of initiating the maneuver.
    You may recover Augment Points by meditating for 5 minutes.

    Instant Boost [Martial Augment]
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 8th, Martial Lore 12.
    Benefit: You may select one boost as a free action during your turn. You may initiate this boost at any time after the end of your current turn and before the start of your next turn by making a Martial Lore check (DC 20 + level). If you succeed in the check you waste 3 Augment Points. If you fail you waste only 2.

    Double Strike [Martial Augment]
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 12th, Marital Lore 15.
    Benefit: You may take a full round action to initiate one strike that requires a standard action to initiate and while doing so make a Martial Lore check to initiate a second strike that also requires a standard action to initiate. The DC of the Martial Lore check is 20 + the level of both strikes.
    If the check is successful you initiate the second maneuver as normal and waste 6 Augment Points. If the check fails you fail to initiate the maneuver but waste 2 Augment Points. In both cases you initiate the first maneuver normally.

    Extra Augments [General]
    Prerequisites: Initiator level 8th, Martial Lore 12.
    Benefit: You gain a number of additional Augment Points that equals half your highest mental ability score modifier. You gain additional Augment Points if your highest mental ability score increases.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. It's effects stack but each time increase the required initiator level by 4.
    Last edited by IonizedChicken; 2007-04-28 at 06:55 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    It's always easier to balance something with precedent, and to judge the balance of things with precedent. I can't say whether or not these are balanced without playtesting.

    I'd probably change your terminology away from "Wasting" points. Also, I'd raise the DCs, possibly to 20+2*Maneuver level. Maybe also make it a check with the key skill for the maneuver being initiated instead of Martial Lore, but, on the other hand, tying it to Martial Lore makes that skill useful.

    The things regarding mages' power coming from MM feats weren't addressed to you, sorry if I was unclear; Innis Cabal was the one making that claim.
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    i wasnt making the claim that it makes them powerful, i am saying that the idea is silly becuase this isnt casting, and every other meta feat is applied to a casting. And ya you do call it a meta feat in the title. Want it to be clear they arnt meta feats? Change the title. Thinga augmenting maneuvers are silly becuase they arnt spell's. Think about higher levels, do an instant extra 100 damage, apply a feat that allows you to double that damage, so 200 damage, rinse and repeat. Even if its once a combat and you waste maneuvers to do so, since your maneuvers are near infinite, you will outshine just about everyone by the end of the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Innis, the title does not change the nature of the feats. The feats are unlike meta-magic feats. Really, it's fairly plain to see. Even if they were similar to them, it still wouldn't be 'silly'. Why the hell can't someone port the concept of meta-magic feats to other classes?

    Also, none of the feats I made double the damage you deal with maneuvers. If you want to initiate 2 9th level maneuvers you might deal just that (though the Martial Lore check will be pretty steep and there is the attack roll to consider), but there are the maneuver's requirements to considered. And you can't 'rinse and repeat', since you lose maneuvers after initiating them. You'll need to 'rinse', either take a full round action to do nothing or make a full attack without any maneuvers (depending on your class), and then you'll be able to do it again. You'll also have to make the steep Martial Lore check and the attack roll(s).
    Anyway, at 20th level maybe, possibly dealing 200 points of damage isn't that much.

    I_Got_This_Name: I understand your point, but the fact something has precedent doesn't mean it's ideal. I'm not saying that my own feats are ideal, of course. Just that directly porting meta-magic feats and applying them to maneuvers isn't what I believe is necessary here.
    You do think the point system is better, though, I take it?
    Last edited by IonizedChicken; 2007-04-28 at 02:34 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    ya, at 20th level 200 damage isnt that much but its not what the tank should be doing. They are there to take the hits not deal them
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Not saying that precedent makes things better, just that it makes them easier to balance and easier to judge balance on.

    Spending points does seem somewhat better than expending extra maneuvers, especially since it doesn't have to overpower the Swordsage (it's one full round action to recover all maneuvers, since all 'sages take Adaptive Style) to be balanced for the other classes. Still, it adds an extra mechanic to track (points), admittedly an easy one to track.
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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    I like this concept. While some feats were introduced in Tome of Battle, most of them had nothing to do with using or enhancing the maneuvers themselves, and feats that allow players to increase the effectiveness of their maneuvers would most certainly be welcome.

    I can't understand why someone would be against the idea of ToB types getting access to these kinds of feats, given that magic users and psionics have access to Mega-Magic and Meta-Psionic feats to increase their spell/power usage. If ToB is designed with the intent of making melee fighters more effective and fun to play alongside caster types, then I see no logical reason to deny them feats that would allow them to increase their goodies the same way casters and psychics can. To me, Meta-Martial feats are simply a logical progression of the concept.

    I think there should be a solid mix of feats that are geared towards General use and those that are geared towards specific classes and disciplines. Some feats, such as Empower, Enlarge, Extend, Heighten, Maximize, and Widen Maneuver would be usable with any discipline. Other feats would allow bonuses only with certain disciplines.

    There are several good ways to limit how often these feats can be used:
    -1- Using one of these maneuvers requires you to expend an additional readied maneuver. This can work both for feats that increase a maneuvers effectiveness or a feat that gives you a one time bonus or ability, such as a feat that would let you heal your own wounds by expending a maneuver or gaining a +5 bonus to jump checks.
    -2- Limit the feats use per day or per encounter based on a certain stat bonus, based on the style. Desert Wind might use Dex while Stone Dragon would use Con. Feats designed for regularl use could have a numeric value, such as 3 or 5, in addition to your stat modifier.
    -3- The Feat requires you to make a Skill check with the Key Skill associated with each maneuver, with a DC equal to 10-15 + maneuver level. You might need to make a Jump check to gain a Tiger Claw feat bonus, for example, though it would get redundant if you made a Jump Check only to get a bonus to a Jump check.
    -4- The Feat only works while you're in a Martial Stance, with some working while in any stance while others only work while in the stance of a particular style. This could include bonuses to accuracy, damage, AC, bonuses to that styles maneuvers, etc.

    Any or all of these would work well, and it would probably be good to mix up the number of spending options so the feats have different flavors. I like the Stance one for certain effects, and think they should include feats that could let you make a Swordsage more "Monk"-ly while in a martial stance, such as bonuses to AC, running speed, gaining the slow fall ability, etc.

    Overall, I hope that when we finally get a source book with more ToB goodies, feats like this are incorporated.

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    Default Re: "Meta Maneuver" feats

    Uh. I edited the main post, made it work using Augment Points.
    I think the Augment Point costs need some work, and perhaps I should cut down on the feats that allow you to have multiple boosts active per round.
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