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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Valairn's Avatar

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    Default Sneak Attack Blaster

    I've tried building one of these before, and failed... Quite miserably I might add, I can sometimes do very well optimizing and sometimes I SUCK, so regardless. What are some of the common builds and feat selections for putting silly amounts of sneak attack dice while throwing spells?

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Sorcerer 1/Rogue 19? Stupid amount of sneak attack on Ray of Frost spells...

    It wouldn't be a very good build, of course!
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2007-04-26 at 01:58 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Why Sneak Attack? If you're a caster, why not just optimize strait blaster damage? It's a lot easier, and it doesn't have all the restrictions of Sneak Attack. Or do you have a larger build in mind that you haven't described?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    No time to create a build but the first thing that comes to mind is the Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel (or is it Comp Mage?)
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Well, since it fits the thread, is there any feat that allows sneak attack progression to stack with caster progression (like the abundance of feats that allow it to stack with monk, etc)?
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Sorcerer 1/Rogue 19? Stupid amount of sneak attack on Ray of Frost spells...

    It wouldn't be a very good build, of course!
    Why Ray of Frost? Go Acid Splash, no concern with SR.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Rogue 20, buy wands?

    A good Wand of Ray of Frost is cheap, and would provide a good deal of situational damage. Get a few other wands of other cheap elemental damage spells (Scorching Ray, etc) and you can easily be the character with an elemental (or negative/positive energy) damage solution to everything.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    I have to second the question, why are you looking to sneak attack as a source of damage for your spells? Casters can already toss a handful of d6 and at a group no less, the advantage of sneak attack damage is in it's repeated application. TWF, multiple limbs, iterative attacks, etc are the way to make good use of it, not trying to boost a single hit.

    The point I'm trying to make is that sneak attacking with a spell can only be optimized so far, because it's not a great tactic. Even if you do manage to find a full caster build that gets a rogues sneak attack progression, a rogue built for damage will floor you. Looking at master thrower tricks and twf and other sneak attack damage builds, none of them work off of one shot, because frankly 9d6 isnt that much. Repeatable delivery is what you should aim for.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Rogue or Spellthief 1 (using Master Spellthief)
    Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 4.
    Unseen Seer 10
    Spellwarp sniper 4 or 5 or Arcane Trickster 4 or 5

    1d6 Sneak Attack from Rogue or Spellthief
    4d6 Sneak Attack from US
    2d6 Sneak Attack from Arcane Trickster
    Caster Level/3*d6 Sneak Attack by getting the Spell Hunter's Eye from PHB2 via the US advanced learning. Hunter's Eye is normally a 2nd lvl Ranger spell, Persist it.
    Polymorph into certain forms can get you up to 8d6 more sneak attack

    More here
    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=745321
    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754824
    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817309
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2007-04-26 at 04:31 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Unseen Seer 10
    Source? I don't recognize that one...
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Prestige Class in Complete Mage. Divination Specialist. Gives 6 skill points, 3/4 bab, full caster, 3 advanced learnings for divination, +4d6 damage boost to sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike (only one of those 3 though). Also some minor other goodies.

    Only requirements are skill points, and knowing 2 1st lvl divination spells.

    It redid sneak attack mages just like abjurant champion redid the gish.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Spellthief 20.

    No, seriously. Pump your UMD and your CHA and blast away with ray spells. You'll even be able to recover spells or gain spells through the cunning use of the Steal Spell ability.

    As for PRCs, Spellwarp Sniper and Unseen Seer are both solid choices for the Spellthief, though I prefer SS for the Sudden Raystrike and the increased potential for SA-able spells. Note also how the Spellwarp ability doesn't specify only being usable on spells you cast naturally: this means you can warp, say, a fireball from a wand of fireball into a sneak attackable ray.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Prestige Class in Complete Mage.
    Thanks. That explains it - I started reading it, then got pulled away to other things and haven't finished.
    John Ling
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    Spellthief 20.

    No, seriously. Pump your UMD and your CHA and blast away with ray spells. You'll even be able to recover spells or gain spells through the cunning use of the Steal Spell ability.
    Spellthief? Fax, I can't believe you're suggesting that. A core only Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has more Sneak Attack, access to much more and higher level spells, and comparable Skills.

    I have to say though, I'd love to see someone actually try and play a Spellthief some day. It'd be a huge challenge, worse then playing Dan in Street Fighter.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by BCOVertigo View Post
    The point I'm trying to make is that sneak attacking with a spell can only be optimized so far, because it's not a great tactic.
    Some of the multiple touch spells can get quite insane (storm touch for instance).

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Is there a Greater Manyshot equivalent for spells? Something that'd allow a caster to get Sneak Attack on, say, all the blasts of a Scorching Ray?

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Is there a Greater Manyshot equivalent for spells? Something that'd allow a caster to get Sneak Attack on, say, all the blasts of a Scorching Ray?
    I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2007-04-26 at 06:23 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.
    Oh, really? Well, perhaps someone with some feats that let them sub in different elements in place of fire for Scorching Ray (or find alternative element equivalents of the spell), for multi-attack elemental sneakiness.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Spellthief? Fax, I can't believe you're suggesting that. A core only Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has more Sneak Attack, access to much more and higher level spells, and comparable Skills.

    I have to say though, I'd love to see someone actually try and play a Spellthief some day. It'd be a huge challenge, worse then playing Dan in Street Fighter.
    Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.
    I glanced over the class, and I think it'd be pretty scary in conjunction with a couple of Luck feats. (Oh, I see I've been Feebleminded. *roll* *roll* *roll* YOINK!)

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    I really don't mind spellthieves. They are a cool concept which is remotely useful in the right kind of campaign. The master spelltheif feat makes them an excellent multiclass option.
    Johannes factotum of the Bard Defense League

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    "Jack of all trades, master of none, though ofttimes better than master of one."

    The main question that any DM should ask before making a house-rule or exception is, "Is it balanced?"

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    I'm actually playing a spellthief now. They may not be optimized, but they have a lot of nice abilities. They're fun to play.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Rog3/Sorc6/Arcane Trickster10/AM1.

    Spells to grab: Lesser Sonic Orb (1st level spells, Conjuration, so no SR, and Sonic damage, which is rarely, if ever, resisted), Sonic Orb (4th level version), Greater Invisibility, Gravebane, Golembane.

    AM ability: Mastery of Elements. This lets you change out the flavor of your damage to whatever you want in case you run across something with an elemental weakness (burn trolls, for instance).

    Why this works: Impromptu Sneak Attack. Even if they aren't flat-footed, they are now. Plus Greater Invisibility gives you Sneak Attacks against anyone who can't see invis. For those few who do... they are nailed anyways. Golembane/Gravebane lets you SA normally un SA'able opponents.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.
    You'll probably want to look at Complete Arcane, page 86, top of the second column.

    Some weapon-like spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

    For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (2 rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals d6d+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.
    John Ling
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    So, we're going to need Greater Improved Manyray (or whatever) after all, eh?

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Indeed. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but that's the official ruling on it.


    The reasoning behind it: While you're making multiple attack rolls, it's all still part of one action - the "cast a spell" action, to be exact. It's a standard action spell with an instantaneous duration, so in theory all the rays go off at once and you can only precisely aim one of them.

    I think if you're going to go with the official ruling, a feat is a fine way to resolve it. Off the top of my head, prereqs of Point Blank Shot and Caster Level 9 should be fine.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    Indeed. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but that's the official ruling on it.


    The reasoning behind it: While you're making multiple attack rolls, it's all still part of one action - the "cast a spell" action, to be exact. It's a standard action spell with an instantaneous duration, so in theory all the rays go off at once and you can only precisely aim one of them.

    I think if you're going to go with the official ruling, a feat is a fine way to resolve it. Off the top of my head, prereqs of Point Blank Shot and Caster Level 9 should be fine.
    Umm... you realize just how broken that's going to make an already powerful spell? Scorching Ray already does 4d6 X 3. If you allow SA on all three, you're looking at something like 11d6 each, for a total of 33d6. That's just for a 2nd level spell. Now let's Metamagic it. Rod of LESSER Maximize (since it's only a 2nd level spell) and that's a flat guarenteed 198 damage. For a 2nd level spell. Grab a single level of Archmage so you can change your flavor as needed and you're seriously talking Stinky Cheeze.

    Besides, I'd just go with Lesser Sonic Orb from Complete Arcane or Spell Compendium. Does up to 5d6, NO SR, as a 1st level spell. Fun times. Does less damage than the scorching ray, but doesn't allow SR, and Sonic is rarely, if ever, resisted. It's not so stinky cheeze.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    You can't maximize sneak attack damage.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    a warlock/rogue would be good as well
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Blaster

    The lesser rod of maximise would maximise the SPELL damage, so it'd be 24+xd6. Not nearly as amazing.
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