Feat Solution

[Rahdjan]

It's pretty much agreed that certain feats, unles taken as a prereq, are fairly useless/weak. What if they scaled as you leveled without having to burn another feat on the "greater" Version? For instance, feats that normaly only give a +1 bonus scale at the rate of 1 per 5 levels. I think this could solve some of the problems with those feats, but it raises another question. Would it scale at the 1 per 5 levels AFTER you take the feat or would it be static? Anyone ever think of doing something like this?

[brian c]

There's a "scaling feats" thread in the homebrew forum right now, and Fax Celestis had a system of "perfecting feats" that you might want to look up also. Both of those are very similar to what you're saying.

[Matthew]

Yes indeed, there are three or four active Threads proposing different solutions to this problem. Divorcing Feats and Skills from Class and Level seems to me to be the optimum solution in conjunction with a 'Character Point' Cost or somesuch mechanism.

The solution you are proposing sounds reasonable enough, but I doubt that in and of itself it will make much of an impact on the core problem.

[brian c]

Yes indeed, there are three or four active Threads proposing different solutions to this problem. Divorcing Feats and Skills from Class and Level seems to me to be the optimum solution in conjunction with a 'Character Point' Cost or somesuch mechanism.

The solution you are proposing sounds reasonable enough, but I doubt that in and of itself it will make much of an impact on the core problem.

Play GURPS or something. D&D mechanics are based on the class system, with skills and feats dependent on class level. If you don't like that, then you'd probably enjoy a different system better instead of trying to modify D&D.

[Matthew]

Thiat's a bit of a knee jerk reaction, don't you think? (A)D&D 2.x worked with exactly the system described above and worked perfectly well. If I wanted to play GURPS, I'd play GURPS (which I have), but I want to play a balanced version of D&D, which is exactly the problem being addressed.

[brian c]

Thiat's a bit of a knee jerk reaction, don't you think? (A)D&D 2.x worked with exactly the system described above and worked perfectly well. If I wanted to play GURPS, I'd play GURPS (which I have), but I want to play a balanced version of D&D, which is exactly the problem being addressed.

I didn't mean it like that, I'm jsut saying that D&D is balanced based on the level system, and that if you change that then it's not quite D&D anymore. Disassociating feats and skillpoints with level advancement would be a major, major change to the mechanics of the game. If you don't like the main game mechanics, you're probably better off playing a different game. Leveling is almost as essential to playing D&D as rolling dice is; if you don't like games that involve dice rolling then you can't play anything resembling D&D.

edit: obviously when i say D&D i mean 3.x edition. If you liked playing 2nd edition, feel free to play that. I'm just saying that what you want to do is a very big change to 3.x D&D

[Rahdjan]

The systems I've seen that use point buy don't take into account loot.

[Matthew]

I didn't mean it like that, I'm jsut saying that D&D is balanced based on the level system, and that if you change that then it's not quite D&D anymore. Disassociating feats and skillpoints with level advancement would be a major, major change to the mechanics of the game. If you don't like the main game mechanics, you're probably better off playing a different game. Leveling is almost as essential to playing D&D as rolling dice is; if you don't like games that involve dice rolling then you can't play anything resembling D&D.

edit: obviously when i say D&D i mean 3.x edition. If you liked playing 2nd edition, feel free to play that. I'm just saying that what you want to do is a very big change to 3.x D&D

Nobody is talking about getting rid of levels or archetypes, though. The way it works is that when Characters go up a Level they gain a discrete number of 'Character Points' to spend on advancing Skills and Feats (the number may vary from Class to Class). However, the Dungeon Master is also free to award additional Character Points during play to take into account 'events' and such. Basically it is a mechanism for awarding Bonus Feats and Bonus Skill Points (which may or may not already go on in play), whilst at the same time seeking to balance Feats (as more powerful ones cost more Character Points and less powerful ones cost less).
Believe you me, I do play (A)D&D 2.x and D&D 3.x as well. When I play D&D 3.x I play by the RAW (barring misunderstandings and contradictions) and I recognise its limitations. If we are seeking a solution to the 'Weak Feat' problem, though (which is the subject of this Thread, as far as I can see), then I am suggesting rating Feats via Character Points, rather than trying to balance things so that Feat X = Feat Y.

Rahdjan: What do you mean they 'don't take into account loot'?

[Rahdjan]

Mutants and Masterminds and the Chapmions system are both point buy. You use points to buy every little thing which includes attacks. They are both no loot games. Now idealy they are used for Superhero games, but I've seen them used for DnD style games too. I don't know of any point systems that actually have rules for offering loot.

[Matthew]

What do you mean by 'loot'? Do you mean Starting Equipment/Wealth? If so, Rifts, I think, allowed for that.