Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[druid91]

It could be a romance story, a clerk stuck in one of the more repetitive boring administrative roles, marred by aesthetically unpleasant augmetics for their job, finally gets a chance to go to a festival with the other workers because one of their colleagues offered to finish up some paperwork for them as a thank you for some favour. While there they bump into someone cute and have to relearn how to interact with non-clerks and try to juggle their heavy workload with their desire to spend more time with their new love interest and eke out their own little spot of brightness among the drudgery.

Something short, simple but sweet. It's quite a common story at the core.

Only to find out their love interest is actually a cultist of some kind, because happy endings are forbidden.

[Anonymouswizard]

Only to find out their love interest is actually a cultist of some kind, because happy endings are forbidden.

Nah, go for an even more grimdark angle. Their love interest isn't a cultist of Chaos or involved with genestealers. They follow am inherently wrong version of the Imperial Cult!

Honestly written correctly it could be a really depressing ending without involving anything non-human or even having the love interest get killed. The two just end up being so fanatical that they can't accept somebody with different beliefs about the Emperor to themselves.

[The Glyphstone]

Turns out both characters are cultists from different cults. They both die horribly when an Inquisitorial kill-team raids their sanctum. Then the planet they lived on is Exterminatus'd.

[Delta]

You end with them all smooching up and happy and stuff, when there's a sudden flash of light, followed by a scene aboard an imperial warship with an enraged captain who realized that because of an incompletely transmitted astropathic message she just exterminatus'd the wrong planet.

[Grim Portent]

Or just end on the fact that as happy as they are in that brief moment, they and any children they have are still part of the Imperium, their lives have no consequence and their love means nothing in a cosmic sense.

[Lanlaorn]

Or just end on the fact that as happy as they are in that brief moment, they and any children they have are still part of the Imperium, their lives have no consequence and their love means nothing in a cosmic sense.

In "a cosmic sense" your life has no consequence and your love means nothing right now so uh...?

Honestly the scale is so large in 40k that while there's an apocalypse every other week for someone like an Inquisitor or your local Space Marine chapter / Sisters of Battle mission / Imperial Guard regiment / whatever to handle, most planets go thousands, or tens of thousands!, of years without an incident. So most worlds go longer than the span of recorded human history without a problem and the vast, vast majority of people living on those worlds do not know that demons even exist, maybe don't even know there are other alien species.

You could tell a standard cyberpunk story set in the middle of some Hive City and be totally in setting, the Arbites are a complete Judge Dredd ripoff so of course any of those stories would work seamlessly, etc. etc.

The fans love to go all-in on the grimdark, and sure that's fun, but the setting absolutely has room for any story you want to tell.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I just feel like the fanbase could use a reminder sometimes that the 40k universe CAN have nice things, no matter how briefly. Honestly I think that's an advantage the RPGs have: you can tell those stories, have PCs make small victories and stuff.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I just feel like the fanbase could use a reminder sometimes that the 40k universe CAN have nice things, no matter how briefly. Honestly I think that's an advantage the RPGs have: you can tell those stories, have PCs make small victories and stuff.

I once ran Dark Heresy as a pure comedy, almost a farce. Chaos was behind everything, and it was always the same Chaos Cult and the same Daemons, but the PCs would always win because the bad guys were incompetent at best.

Ialso ran it straight, where there was a lot of corruption but everything was kind of okay, and the Cell would be sent in to determine if some small problem was a sign of Chaos and either deal with it or report back. If it was a big threat they'd get a skirmish or two with the cult before calling in the actual troops, but even the legitimate Chaos cults they encountered could be dealt with a few Guard squads or Arbiters. They eventually stopped being moved around, one section in one hive on a minor Hive World had an unusually high level of corruption and their job was to keep it in line as best they could (which involved Chaos cults, breaking up some gangs, and would have ended up with them removing a politician from office if the game hadn't fizzled out.


I always considered Dark Heresy 1e the best of the games because, despite it's rough edges, it was focused on those small stories. Getting everybody in flak armour and trained to use a lasgun* helped to boost survivability and most people you met were going to be relatively normal relatively honest people. I once had half a session lost to the party realising it had no communication devices amongst them, they almost abandoned an ambush to get comms so that they could coordinate better.

It's one of the reasons Wrath and Glory annoys me so much. It wants me to play a Space Marine, but I've always wanted to play the Ganger or Guardsperson in over his head struggling to work out why they're the one who has to keep the mining laser on the daemonhost. I actually dislike it's 'somebody from every archetype has to be able to play together' ideology for weird things like Commisars being ranked as suitable for play with Space Marines but not Guardsmen (in fact, I don't see much justifying them not being an unusually expensive Rank 2 career).

* I still swear by the lasgun over the autogun, if only because once you have a couple of power packs you can save money for reloading the guns that actually kill the nasty things.

[Delta]

I once ran Dark Heresy as a pure comedy, almost a farce. Chaos was behind everything, and it was always the same Chaos Cult and the same Daemons, but the PCs would always win because the bad guys were incompetent at best.

So in other words, you ran a 40k game? :D

I mean let's be honest, there's a reason they had to do a massive retcon and go "Oh no, Abaddon isn't the most incompetent idiot of all time, he didn't really get spanked every single time on those last dozen crusades, in reality they were a great success, really! You all just didn't realize the genius of his grand design!!!", I always thought Chaos being immensely powerful and only failing to roflstomp the whole galaxy because time and time again all its servants are massively incompetent idiots is kind of the core concept driving the whole conflict.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Got a couple of questions regarding playing 4th Edition WHFRP:

Which character creation method is the more popular one; rolling everything and benefiting from the extra XP it gives, or selecting your various selectable options so you can play what you want but lose the bonus XP? I know neither method is "right" or "wrong," but WHFRP's reputation as a punishing experience that chews up and spits out unoptimized characters precedes it, making me worry that every scrap of XP I can get is necessary to increase a character's chances of survival, even if they're not necessarily the character I actually WANT to play...

Second, in the event I were to play a Wizard of any kind, what Wind of Magic would be the most advantageous for the aid of a party? My general impression is that Ghyran would be best, as it has the most healing abilities, followed maybe by Hysh as it also has a healing spell and also has powers that are helpful against undead and Chaos. Again, I know technically I could pick what I want, but again, I worry that WHFRP is much less forgiving of unoptimized characters than, say, D&D is.

Finally, according to what research I've done, Wood Elves don't have to worry about Slaanesh or Ereth Kial the way High Elves do because Athel Loren absorbs and protects their souls after death, but there's the rub: that protection seems only to extend to the Asrai, the Wood Elves of Athel Loren proper. Do the Eonir, the Wood Elves of Laurelorn in the Empire, need to use the same protections High Elves do with Waystones and stuff? Or does Laurelorn function like a mini-Athel-Loren, protecting their souls the same way Athel Loren protects the Asrai? Or are they basically out of luck and doomed for XTRA GRIMDARK TRAJADEE?

Thank you in advance!

[druid91]

It's worth noting that Both Life and Light Magic have relatively high CNs. In order to cast a spell, you need to have enough SL's on your casting test to match the CN. Meaning you need bonuses. In particular, in order to cast even the weakest Healing spell from Ghyran you would need at least a 61 to casting, and to roll a 1.

Also, as to your other question, it's worth noting that the XP Bonus for randomizing your character is less than the XP for any given session, less so than even a session where you get poor XP.

It's not worth nothing, so it's worth rolling to see if you get what you want. But it's still better to take the class you want, rather than the class it gives you. A beggar with 70 XP is still a beggar, and will still contribute less than a wizard with no XP.

[Morty]

Which character creation method is the more popular one; rolling everything and benefiting from the extra XP it gives, or selecting your various selectable options so you can play what you want but lose the bonus XP? I know neither method is "right" or "wrong," but WHFRP's reputation as a punishing experience that chews up and spits out unoptimized characters precedes it, making me worry that every scrap of XP I can get is necessary to increase a character's chances of survival, even if they're not necessarily the character I actually WANT to play...

The reputation is exaggerated and memetic. Your actions and choices during the game, as well as the GM's style, are going to matter a lot more than squeezing XP at the expense of your concept. Besides, poor luck with rolling can negate whatever XP advantage you get with it; from what I could tell it's really not much.

[Anonymouswizard]

So in other words, you ran a 40k game? :D

I mean let's be honest, there's a reason they had to do a massive retcon and go "Oh no, Abaddon isn't the most incompetent idiot of all time, he didn't really get spanked every single time on those last dozen crusades, in reality they were a great success, really! You all just didn't realize the genius of his grand design!!!", I always thought Chaos being immensely powerful and only failing to roflstomp the whole galaxy because time and time again all its servants are massively incompetent idiots is kind of the core concept driving the whole conflict.

So Abaddon is a Power Rangers villain?

The reputation is exaggerated and memetic. Your actions and choices during the game, as well as the GM's style, are going to matter a lot more than squeezing XP at the expense of your concept. Besides, poor luck with rolling can negate whatever XP advantage you get with it; from what I could tell it's really not much.

To be fair, even by reputation it's closer to 'it doesn't matter what you roll as, if you don't pay smart you're dead', compared to Paranoia's meme of 'it doesn't matter what you roll, because you'll have died at least six times before the end of the session'.

[Telok]

To be fair, even by reputation it's closer to 'it doesn't matter what you roll as, if you don't pay smart you're dead', compared to Paranoia's meme of 'it doesn't matter what you roll, because you'll have died at least six times before the end of the session'.

Hey now! Half my Paranoia players lost fewer than 5 clones each session!

My general experience was that how you roll in play and how well the DM understands basic probability often matters more than anything else. How well you play is a close third, and with your character it mostly matters if it matches the campaign or not.

One game, this is nigh on 20 years ago now, there wasn't any real coherent campaign so we didn't have much to guide us character prep-wise except the DM's personality. The party ended up two high rolled melee monsters, one barely qualified to be a archer, one barely qualified as some sort of priest. The DM ended up running a mostly melee combat game a d thought 3 chances at 30% was equal to a 90% chance.

Needless to say the not-melee monsters suffered. Both had no fate points by the end, didn't have the trappings needed to get into their final advanced classes, and were literally incapable of participating in the final fight against a daemon (it was immune to ranged attacks and everything the priest guy had). Mostly it was the undetectable ambushes from behind during fights that got us. Being unable to not be in melee, surprised, and out numbered, no matter what we did or where we were, pretty much negated to non-melee oriented characters.

The DM wasn't a bad person, he just didn't grok how probability worked or how WHFRP differed from more forgiving or shining hero systems. He thought he was giving us chances to shine and the dice just weren't cooperating.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see...So if I had my heart set on playing a Wizard I'd probably be fine. For a given value of fine, anyway.

Out of curiosity, which lores have the easiest CNs? Like, I get why Hysh does, it's the most difficult one to master in the lore, and I suppose Ghyran's is high to discourage players from relying on a Jade Wizard to keep them alive the way D&D players rely on Clerics, forcing PCs to adopt strategies that AVOID starting fights that risky in the first place...

And does anyone have any lore insight on the afterlife for Laurelorn wood elves? The wikis don't really elaborate beyond what's in the corebook and in older editions, but I imagine that it's important for someone who wants to play a Wood Elf from there to know, as it's more than just a cultural difference!

[druid91]

I see...So if I had my heart set on playing a Wizard I'd probably be fine. For a given value of fine, anyway.

Out of curiosity, which lores have the easiest CNs? Like, I get why Hysh does, it's the most difficult one to master in the lore, and I suppose Ghyran's is high to discourage players from relying on a Jade Wizard to keep them alive the way D&D players rely on Clerics, forcing PCs to adopt strategies that AVOID starting fights that risky in the first place...

And does anyone have any lore insight on the afterlife for Laurelorn wood elves? The wikis don't really elaborate beyond what's in the corebook and in older editions, but I imagine that it's important for someone who wants to play a Wood Elf from there to know, as it's more than just a cultural difference!

Easiest is Bright Wizards/Aqushy.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Easiest is Bright Wizards/Aqshy.

Of COURSE the boring flashy fireball magic's the easiest.

[druid91]

Of COURSE the boring flashy fireball magic's the easiest.

They have low CN's, and also get +10 to cast for every ablaze condition around them. Note you can stack multiple ablaze conditions on people.

Ghyran does have an advantage in so far as +10 to cast in 'natural' areas.

Mind you, Ghyran and Hysh are doable. But channeling is dangerous, and it's weird to me to think about a Ghyran mage spending most of their time hurling blasts of life energy to attack people in order to build up to cast a healing spell.

[Aneurin]

They have low CN's, and also get +10 to cast for every ablaze condition around them. Note you can stack multiple ablaze conditions on people.

Ghyran does have an advantage in so far as +10 to cast in 'natural' areas.

Mind you, Ghyran and Hysh are doable. But channeling is dangerous, and it's weird to me to think about a Ghyran mage spending most of their time hurling blasts of life energy to attack people in order to build up to cast a healing spell.

It's also a terrible idea, since Ghyran spells remove Bleed and Fatigue from anyone they target (note: this does not apply to Father of Thorns as it doesn't actually target anyone).


All the Lores are viable; but not all of the spells are good for in combat use right out the door; even Lore of Fire's lower CNs. For a good while they're something you cast at the outset of combat (having done your Channeling before hand) if you've time to prepare, and then stick with smaller spells for the rest of the fight. It's quite late game before they become reliable enough to use mid-fight (without sticking a "kill me first" sign on yourself by Channeling). The generic Arcane spells are your friend early on, and do get a bonus and a twist depending on your chosen Lore (like Fire spells set people Ablaze, Death spells give them Fatigue, etc.).

Also, if you can get +10 to something you absolutely should. WFRP has always been about stacking the odds in your favour.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, there's clearly a LOT more going on in spellcasting than the TTS special or the Total War games implied. So spells have additional effects besides the ones in the actual entry by virtue of their school?

[druid91]

Okay, there's clearly a LOT more going on in spellcasting than the TTS special or the Total War games implied. So spells have additional effects besides the ones in the actual entry by virtue of their school?

Yes. Basically, each school has an ability that's part of just how that wind of magic works. So even basic spells like 'dart' work differently depending on school.

A dart from a Bright Wizard will light the target on fire. A dart from a Light wizard will blind the target. A dart from an Amythest Wizard will fatigue the target. And a dart from a celestial wizard will hop from target to target like chain lightning.

Different schools get different bonuses.

Also, at creation you're stuck with petty magic, rather than Lore magic anyway. You're still bound to a wind, but don't unlock any of the crazy spells.

[Morty]

Okay, there's clearly a LOT more going on in spellcasting than the TTS special or the Total War games implied. So spells have additional effects besides the ones in the actual entry by virtue of their school?

TTS used the second edition rules and the Total Warhammer games use the battle game, so the assumptions from either of those don't necessarily apply.

(The TTS special also took some liberties for the sake of humour and a spectacle, obviously)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So magic got stuff added to it as the editions changed?

And how do those school benefits work if you're playing an elf (High or Wood) who can ostensibly learn from multiple ones?

[LeSwordfish]

So magic got stuff added to it as the editions changed?

And how do those school benefits work if you're playing an elf (High or Wood) who can ostensibly learn from multiple ones?

Do you have access to the rulebook? A lot of these questions feel like ones that will be answered there. The editions are similar in some ways but you can't assume there's crossover between them at all.

[druid91]

So magic got stuff added to it as the editions changed?

And how do those school benefits work if you're playing an elf (High or Wood) who can ostensibly learn from multiple ones?

RAW I think they just all apply. Because they're contingent on having the Arcane (Lore) trait.

Lorewise, you would have to decide what Wind you were using to cast.

[Morty]

Do you have access to the rulebook? A lot of these questions feel like ones that will be answered there. The editions are similar in some ways but you can't assume there's crossover between them at all.

Yeah, if you're going to play WFRP 4E just read the 4E rulebook and disregard contradictory material from elsewhere.

Elven wizards can learn multiple Lores but they need to master one before starting to learn another, so it's a pretty far-away concern.

[LCP]

Also worth noting that magic in 4E is kind of a mess mechanically. The Channelling skill is a pure trap choice, and the interaction of overcasts and Advantage makes it often better to just spam petty magic spells like Dart than to use your Arcane Lore spells, even at high XP levels.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Do you have access to the rulebook? A lot of these questions feel like ones that will be answered there. The editions are similar in some ways but you can't assume there's crossover between them at all.

It's at home, but I've been posting from my phone during my work breaks, so yes and no?

[LeSwordfish]

Not that people here don't seem to be hapoy to help but asking lots of questions that are right there in the book, when you own the book, is a bit disrespectful of their time.

[druid91]

Not that people here don't seem to be hapoy to help but asking lots of questions that are right there in the book, when you own the book, is a bit disrespectful of their time.

Eh, it's fairly easy to miss the lore effects. I've been making up a wizard character for some time now, so it was easy to comment.