Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[Marlowe]

So. An renegade guardsman, a medic-gunslinger who thinks she's a Space Nazi, and a hired killer from Foster's Laager.

Sieg us.

[Malak'ai]

So. An renegade guardsman, a medic-gunslinger who thinks she's a Space Nazi, and a hired killer from Foster's Laager.

Sieg us.

And not one Face or Techie amoung you .

Oh, and the Assassin from the Penal Colony has the highest Influence in the party so far.

[Marlowe]

Well, Szofiya has A rank in Tech Use and decent intelligence, for what that's worth. But I guess we'll just have to get used to no-one liking us.

Rimmer:It's hard to be me, you know. It's not easy to look in the mirror every morning and see the face of a man that nobody likes.
The Cat: How do you think we feel? We've got to look at it all day!

ooh. Variable laser-weapon settings.

I'm guessing Szofiya's going to collect laspistols and fire them on overdrive.

[Marlowe]

Just spotted we've been filling in our armour diagram wrong.

The value we're supposed to fill in is the total soak. Armour+Toughness bonus. The little box in the corner is to record the armour value alone.

I was wondering why all the sample NPCs seemed to have much better armour than us.

[Malak'ai]

Just spotted we've been filling in our armour diagram wrong.

The value we're supposed to fill in is the total soak. Armour+Toughness bonus. The little box in the corner is to record the armour value alone.

I was wondering why all the sample NPCs seemed to have much better armour than us.

Yeah, I spotted that as well, was gonna tell you when I saw you next.

[Delta]

Quick question: I've got a few Dark Heresy 1st books and a bunch of PDF (got most of DH cheap on a Bundle of Holding deal a while ago), I don't have anything from DH 2nd and heard that it's all running out of print because there's a new 40K game around the corner coming from Ulisses which I don't know much about yet. I got a few friends who like the 40K background and would like to give a campaign there a shot, and I really like the look of Dark Heresy on the game world. Sooooo any of you with more experience with DH 2nd and maybe know more about the new game coming out, which is the best way to go here?

a) Stick to DH1, I already got that stuff after all
b) Get my hands on some DH2 pdfs (is it a big improvement on 1st?)
c) Wait for the new game (it's not like we're in a hurry to get the new campaign running, will take a couple months at the very least so if it's coming out this year that's an option as well)

[Aneurin]

Quick question: I've got a few Dark Heresy 1st books and a bunch of PDF (got most of DH cheap on a Bundle of Holding deal a while ago), I don't have anything from DH 2nd and heard that it's all running out of print because there's a new 40K game around the corner coming from Ulisses which I don't know much about yet. I got a few friends who like the 40K background and would like to give a campaign there a shot, and I really like the look of Dark Heresy on the game world. Sooooo any of you with more experience with DH 2nd and maybe know more about the new game coming out, which is the best way to go here?

a) Stick to DH1, I already got that stuff after all
b) Get my hands on some DH2 pdfs (is it a big improvement on 1st?)
c) Wait for the new game (it's not like we're in a hurry to get the new campaign running, will take a couple months at the very least so if it's coming out this year that's an option as well)

The two editions are swings and roundabouts, really. I like some of the stuff 2e does better than 1e, but I also like some of the things 1e does better than 2e. Broadly speaking, characters are less competent in 1e - that is, they're less likely to succeed at basic tasks - and the feel is much more one of a hostile universe waiting to kill the unwary. 2e is a bit more heroic (though the universe will still totally eat you if you're stupid), and the characters are somewhat more combat capable and better rounded. Plus I really, really like the freedom of the aptitude system in 2e instead of the advance tables that 1e had for the freedom they give in making your character what you want it to be - but it does make spending experience a bit of a nuisance sometimes, especially if you're new to the system.

I don't think 1e and 2e will be going out of print any time soon - not as long as Ulisses has the rights to them and are making money off them.

I don't know much about the new 40k line, though, I'm afraid, so can't help you save to say it's a very different mechanical base. They've dropped the percentile system, in favour of... I think a d6 dice pool system? I forget. I sort of decided I wasn't that interested at that point since I really like the d100 system, though I'll probably check it out when it comes out just in case I really do like it.

[Delta]

Well since I'm not a big fan of d100 that's not a big negative for me, just not sure what to expect from the new system. As with all things Warhammer, I often fear they focus too much on the "War! War! WAAAAAAR!" part which is kind of the least interesting thing about 40K for me.

[Malak'ai]

Well since I'm not a big fan of d100 that's not a big negative for me, just not sure what to expect from the new system. As with all things Warhammer, I often fear they focus too much on the "War! War! WAAAAAAR!" part which is kind of the least interesting thing about 40K for me.

From what I've read (haven't played all systems), Deathwatch (that's the Space Marines ones) is the MurderHobo ruleset where as Dark Heresy is more subterfuge and investigation with combat sprinkled in just to keep things interesting.

I'm more familiar with DH 2E as I'm about to start a campaign, and the characters are kinda squishy at low experience, so unless they fight smart, they'll get hurt (or dead).
And the percentile system is actually really quite easy to understand. Figure out target number (base stat +/- bonuses) roll, did you get under target number? Yes, you secceed, No, you failed. Degrees of success is based on how many units of 10 you rolled under the target; eg: Basic Ballistic skill of 45, firing a single shot (+10), red dot sight (+10), half action aim (+10) short range (+10) dim lighting (-10) = Target 75, roll = 27 = success + 4 extra degrees of success for a total of 5.


@Marlowe: B just came round. He's made an Adeptus Mechanicus Sage from a Frontier world.

[Delta]

From what I've read (haven't played all systems), Deathwatch (that's the Space Marines ones) is the MurderHobo ruleset where as Dark Heresy is more subterfuge and investigation with combat sprinkled in just to keep things interesting.

I know all of the old systems, it's just that Dark Heresy is by far my favorite there ("doing unspeakably evil things to save the universe" is such a great core story that I can't imagine a better setting for it than 40K in all it's grimdark megalomanical glory)

I'm just not sure what to expect from the new one (Wrath & Glory I think it's called?), all I've heard so far is pretty much "You'll be able to play characters in the 40K universe", which is great but doesn't say a lot about the specific theme of the game.

And the percentile system is actually really quite easy to understand.

I understand that, it's just a personal thing, I just don't really enjoy rolling a d100 as much as other systems, that's all, so the d6 pool system for the new one at least looks interesting to me.

[Malak'ai]

I know all of the old systems, it's just that Dark Heresy is by far my favorite there ("doing unspeakably evil things to save the universe" is such a great core story that I can't imagine a better setting for it than 40K in all it's grimdark megalomanical glory)

I'm just not sure what to expect from the new one (Wrath & Glory I think it's called?), all I've heard so far is pretty much "You'll be able to play characters in the 40K universe", which is great but doesn't say a lot about the specific theme of the game.



I understand that, it's just a personal thing, I just don't really enjoy rolling a d100 as much as other systems, that's all, so the d6 pool system for the new one at least looks interesting to me.

Ah, must have just misunderstood what you were meaning, everyone has their own personal preference. I haven't heard anything about any new 40K rpg's until you just mentioned it.

[Marlowe]

@Marlowe: B just came round. He's made an Adeptus Mechanicus Sage from a Frontier world.

We certainly are a scrappy, seedy, roughnecky bunch aren't we? Here's hoping we can fix up that little frustercluck over "Rely on none but yourself".

On a random note; I'm amused that every second illustration is of somebody using a bolt pistol when almost nobody gets to start with one.

Did he choose the autogun or the hand cannon?

[Malak'ai]

We certainly are a scrappy, seedy, roughnecky bunch aren't we? Here's hoping we can fix up that little frustercluck over "Rely on none but yourself".

On a random note; I'm amused that every second illustration is of somebody using a bolt pistol when almost nobody gets to start with one.

Did he choose the autogun or the hand cannon?

How do you mean? He'll get +20 to Tech-Use when modifying his own weapons, and a +10 to Tech-Use when he tried to repair an Item. The repair modifiers for an items quality are on page 141 in the box at the bottom of the page titled: Table 5-2: Craftmanship, Requisition and Repair, the rest are situational modifiers for "how damaged" the item is, the workshop the character is working in and tools readily avaliable (So anywhere between +60 to -60).

This is B we're talking about... Of couse the chose the weapon with "Cannon" in it's name....

[Marlowe]

How do you mean? He'll get +20 to Tech-Use when modifying his own weapons, and a +10 to Tech-Use when he tried to repair an Item. The repair modifiers for an items quality are on page 141 in the box at the bottom of the page titled: Table 5-2: Craftmanship, Requisition and Repair, the rest are situational modifiers for "how damaged" the item is, the workshop the character is working in and tools readily avaliable (So anywhere between +60 to -60).

This is B we're talking about... Of couse the chose the weapon with "Cannon" in it's name....

I mean the rules for "applying personal modifications" on p 162 say that this is done using the Trade (Armoury) skill. NOT Tech-Use. By RAW the the first part of "Rely on none but yourself" does nothing.

[Malak'ai]

I mean the rules for "applying personal modifications" on p 162 say that this is done using the Trade (Armoury) skill. NOT Tech-Use. By RAW the the first part of "Rely on none but yourself" does nothing.

I'm going to rule that Specific trumps General in the case of Rely on None But Yourself as it specifically calls for a Tech-Use test, where-as anyone else would have to use the general rule of a Trade (Armourer) test.

[shadow_archmagi]

Hey, I'm thinking of running a oneshot game that is System Shock 2 (Or Dead Space 1, I guess) with the serial numbers filed off, and I suspect that any of the 40k RPGs could serve, but each has its own kinks. I've mostly played Rogue Trader, which I suspect is the least appropriate. The core premise is that the PCs are, for some contrived reason, trapped on a giant spaceship. It's a three-way free for all between monsters, the ship's AI, and the PCs (and inevitably probably a couple survivors.) My intuition tells me that Only War is the most appropriate because it'll have slightly better combat rules, but I'm interested in everyone's take.

[Destro_Yersul]

The combat rules are actually pretty much the same for every game, with only a few changes here and there. Only War or Dark Heresy would be most appropriate for that, depending on whether you like the career system or the aptitude system. I like the former, so I'd use DH1 if it were me. That one's also the most similar to Rogue Trader in terms of ruleset.

[shadow_archmagi]

The combat rules are actually pretty much the same for every game, with only a few changes here and there. Only War or Dark Heresy would be most appropriate for that, depending on whether you like the career system or the aptitude system. I like the former, so I'd use DH1 if it were me. That one's also the most similar to Rogue Trader in terms of ruleset.

I'm not too worried about progression systems for a oneshot though.

[LeSwordfish]

The differences then is the diversity of character classes. Who do you want your players to be? Who do they want to play?

If it's going to be a combat focused game, Only War has a more tidy, neat combat system. To be frank, though, its much of a muchness.

[Delta]

To be honest, if it's going to be a combat focused one-shot, I'd consider looking at another system entirely, like Savage Worlds for example.

[Malak'ai]

Question about XP in DH2;

Spoiler: Marlowe, stay out!

Show

For the first mission, which I'm hoping to get started this Sunday, I have 1 Primary objective, 3 Secondary objectives and almost a dozen Tertiary objectives mapped out (will just see how many the players actually acheive) and I was wondering how much XP each of these would typically be worth for a starting party? I don't want to be stingy, but I don't want to give them an over abundance either.

[shadow_archmagi]

Question about XP in DH2;

Spoiler: Marlowe, stay out!

Show

For the first mission, which I'm hoping to get started this Sunday, I have 1 Primary objective, 3 Secondary objectives and almost a dozen Tertiary objectives mapped out (will just see how many the players actually acheive) and I was wondering how much XP each of these would typically be worth for a starting party? I don't want to be stingy, but I don't want to give them an over abundance either.

Spoiler: This probably doesn't need to be a spoiler but whatever

Show

I haven't gotten to run DH2 yet, but as someone that's GMed for a long time, I'd suggest starting by asking what seems like the highest acceptable number to you, and then make that the value of completing the highest number of objectives possible (all of them, assuming that there's no mutually exclusive ones.) Then I'd pick the lowest possible amount you'd be okay with, and make that the primary objective's value.

Then you can distribute the remaining XP between the smaller objectives using your best judgement on how difficult and how valuable they are or whatever criteria you want to use.

IE: "3000 XP seems like quite a lot, but I don't think it'd completely break the game. And I'd feel bad if I gave less than 1000. So that gives me 2000 discretionary XP for the secondaries and tertiary. I think I'll make each of my three secondary worth 300 (900 total) and each of my eleven tertiary worth 100. (1100 total)"

NOTE: Again, I have no idea if the actual number 3000 is appropriate. I'd check the book's starting adventure for a baseline number.

[Destro_Yersul]

Spoiler: XP advice!

Show

I typically don't worry about XP values for particular objectives, myself. I'll wait until the advenutre has passed a point where a key thing has been discovered or revealed, or a particularly tough fight has been overcome, then I'll hand out enough XP to buy a couple of basic advances. My advice is to check how much XP it costs to buy a couple skills/talents that the character has both aptitudes for, and give that much. Sometimes I'll hand out some bonus XP if someone did something especially clever. I also pass out a bigger chunk at the end of the adventure, enough to pick up a handful of skills/talents, or splurge for something more expensive.

[Malak'ai]

Well we started the game yesterday. Nobodies dead as yet, though there were a couple of times it came close, and the party hasn't even seen combat yet lol.

Most of them did pretty well on their req rolls and have a few extra basic toys (and a couple not so basic e.g. a red-dot laser sight and an auspex), oh and the use of an Avrus Lighter they've nicknamed "Jenny", who's machine spirit seems to like them.

[Marlowe]

Guardsman: I roll Stealth-
Tech-Adept: You don't need to roll Stealth! You guys are acting as my bodyguards! We're just walking down the street-
Guardsman: I roll Stealth.
Malak'ai: FAILED!
Desperado: I roll Deceive to make it LOOK like I'm trying to be stealthy and failing!
Malak'ai: FAILED!
Tech-Adept: What does that even mean?! You failed at deceiving people into thinking you were failing at being stealthy?!? What?
Malak'ai: The Adeptus Arbites are looking at you.
Desperado: I smile and wave.

[Much Later]

Tech-Adept: Okay, let's go meet and greet the Tech Priest...I don't suppose you two want to roll Stealt--PUT THOSE DICE DOWN! THAT WAS A JOKE!

[Malak'ai]

*smacks forehead* I had almost forgotten that... At least the Skitarii (refluffed Guardsman) pulled off the vital stealth roll for using the auspex to find the tracking bug without being noticed.

[Marlowe]

Also, my Disguise kit makes no mention of including hair dye but I'm going to just say it has it anyway.

And mister Tech-Adept can really talk. He referred to the Tech Priest as "Mister Don't-kill" thoroughout the session and in character.

[Malak'ai]

Well to be fair to B, I had forgotten the Magos' name and it wasn't until later on in the session that I remembered it

[Marlowe]

And already I'm being pressured into putting more in Operate (Aeronautica)!

Like any of them could do it!

Who's afraid of crashing into the ground and dying in a fireball anyway? Wimps.

[Malak'ai]

You can spend your XP how you see fit, just don't blame me if you end up dying because your character can't see anything beyond her own nose .

NOTE: There has been no pressuring of any kind on what to spend XP on, just suggestions of good skills to get as soon as they can be afforded (eg; Awareness and Scrutiny).