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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    that does get into another topic, are there worlds that fall into multiple categories, like say a shrine world that has a large monument to a saint and alot of imperial presence in that area but on other continents feudal or feral world sections? Or say a world that is hard to tell whether it is a hive world or forge world?
    Absolutely. The categories are broad descriptors, based on the most relevant feature of the planet.
    With the vast colonization of the empire, most planets will fall pretty solidly into one category, but with the right description and background (and GM permission as always) you could easily have a feral world filled with shrines.
    Hive and Forge worlds might be a stretch to combine with other types, as I imagine most of the planet will be stripped of resources in order to build the massive structures, but there will always be exceptions.

    With different levels of technology on the same planet, you have to ask, "Why?"
    Why would the imperium, in its infinite might, not convert the ferals into citizens and put lasguns into their hands?
    Most feral worlds stay feral because the planet is either completely worthless, or too dangerous for anyone to risk it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louro View Post
    Thanks for the answer Grim, but... that's not exactly what I'm trying to figure out.
    I'm wondering how life is from the common citizen perspective. Do Empire citizens have rights? Do they have TV? Independent News?
    Do they know the Emperor didn't want religion? Do they know about the Inquisition?

    I'm picturing something like pseudo-slaves on forge planets and planets nearby, and a wealthy living on planets with heavy Adeptus Ministorum infraestructures. Maybe very vigilant/reluctant society in mechanus planets and high morale on people living neaby military training centers.

    40.000 is very disturbing setting.
    You see those marines in videogames and such... oh boy! Those guys rock. Sure I wanna play that!
    Then you realize how fake that **** was. Like an advertisement trick.
    Because 40K is not an epic game... it feels more like a survival horror. And that's the best/worse part about 40K.
    Yeah, 40k is very much a dystopia. That said there are shining lights in the gloom. The Space Marines, by and large, are much more enlightened than the rest of the Imperium. The Space Wolves, for example, went to war with the entire inquisition to protect the soldiers of Armageddon after a demonic war. They were willing to risk everything to protect common soldiers who had fought bravely. Logan Grimnar is one of the Big Goods of the setting.

    40k is "inspired" from a lot of sources, so you could make it whatever you like. Blade-runner style pretty gritty cities for itty bitty PCs, or american style frontiersmen making a living on backwater worlds with a lasrifle next to the front door.

    Do Empire citizens have rights?
    ++++YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, ONLY DUTIES++++
    The Imperium is a top-down authoritarian system, meaning all power comes down from above. Planetary overlords and enforcers owe the Imperium allegiance, their masters fealty, and owe the people beneath them nothing.

    Do they have TV? Independent News?
    ++++An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates open and unbarred++++
    Holovids for entertainment certainly exist, and there are frequent newscasts on most worlds. These will NOT be independent, and will range from entertainment with some propaganda (the movie Starship Troopers would be ideal) to outright propaganda (medieaval style morality plays, indoctrination via news etc).

    Do they know the Emperor didn't want religion?
    ++++From the alien and the heretic, our Emperor, deliver us++++
    Absolutely not. The actual laws and deeds of the Emperor were 10,000 years ago, and even during his lifetime the Cult of the Emperor began to take root. The Space Marines maintain their own traditions, mostly venerating the Emperor as a great and powerful man, but not a god. The rest of the Imperium absolutely demands the Emperor be worshipped, and the Cult Imperialis is a cornerstone of the Imperium.

    Do they know about the Inquisition?
    ++++A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of damnation++++
    Most do, albeit in vague terms. The Inquisition is usually portrayed as an always watching secret policeman who can see into your very soul. Heretics and aliens beware. The Inquisition will often have official HQ buildings, always huge, black and intimidating so that everyone will feel watched. Most will imagine someone like Inquisitor Coteaz, grim faced, silver armoured and with a mighty wrath and hammer ever ready to destroy the impure.

    You see those marines in videogames and such... oh boy! Those guys rock. Sure I wanna play that!
    Then you realize how fake that **** was. Like an advertisement trick.
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  3. - Top - End - #633
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    With different levels of technology on the same planet, you have to ask, "Why?"
    Why would the imperium, in its infinite might, not convert the ferals into citizens and put lasguns into their hands?
    Most feral worlds stay feral because the planet is either completely worthless, or too dangerous for anyone to risk it.
    Because that conversion isn't a fast process. It's happening, and some parts of the world have adapted faster than others. But full Compliance takes a long time to establish, and the best way to achieve it is to prop up a local regime and supply them with gear that is better than their planet's standard, but not as good as Imperial standard (so laslocks, rather than lasguns) in case they try to turn on you. And you have to make sure said regime is suitable for your purposes, and interested in aligning with you. And you have to subtly alter their culture (ideally the missionaries will have already converted the planetary leadership) and economy without accidentally wrecking it. Then, from there, you have to raise everything to Imperial standards after they've finished subjugating their planet.

    All of which takes a lot of time. Full Compliance takes generations to achieve.

    Yes, you could just drop a couple of armies on the planet and force co-operation, but global warfare will still take a horribly long time, is very costly, and the world will probably bitterly resent the Imperium for many, many generations. It'll have to be garrisoned for a very long time, and, at the end of the day, conquest still hasn't noticeably reduced the time Compliance takes, while upping the cost of it significantly.


    Differing tech-levels can also be accounted for by geographical isolation - if one part of a planet's population live across an ocean from the rest of it, goods, religion and culture will be slower to reach them. Particularly if they have nothing the better-equipped civilization(s) actually want in trade.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    With different levels of technology on the same planet, you have to ask, "Why?"
    Why would the imperium, in its infinite might, not convert the ferals into citizens and put lasguns into their hands?
    Most feral worlds stay feral because the planet is either completely worthless, or too dangerous for anyone to risk it.
    The might of the Imperium is far, far from infinite (you want practically infinite might? Weight till the Tyranid main fleet arrives one day...), and the area it has to protect with this might is vast beyond compare.

    Maybe just no one cared. Maybe someone suggested converting the ferals, then that request was put in line and forgotten in some Administratum queue a couple thousand years ago, and any new request will be denied because there's already a note a similar request is "being processed"

    The reality is, the one thing that the Imperium has lots and lots and lots of is people and planets. Those are the two resources they have in abundance, and it's easy to get a feral tribal warrior, put him into body armor and give him a one week (if that) crash course on "This is your lasgun. Don't eat it, point it that way and pull the trigger when your CO tells you to. This is all, the Emperor protects", there's simply no particularly urgent need to "uplift" them as a whole.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    The Space Marines, by and large, are much more enlightened than the rest of the Imperium. The Space Wolves, for example, went to war with the entire inquisition to protect the soldiers of Armageddon after a demonic war.
    I disagree with this pretty strongly. For every "honest defender of the normal people" marine, there's a Black Templar who'll purge your whole town, or a Minotaur who'll punch you with a powerfist because you're in his way.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I disagree with this pretty strongly. For every "honest defender of the normal people" marine, there's a Black Templar who'll purge your whole town, or a Minotaur who'll punch you with a powerfist because you're in his way.
    Well they are more "enlightened" in the sense that they know infinitely more about the truth of things than most of the Imperium, which isn't hard because most people in the Imperium know next to nothing and what little they know is mostly made up of utter and complete lies and fabrications. That doesn't make automatically make them nice people, though... and tbh, "We're the good guys, not the nice guys" could be the tagline for how most big players in the Imperium view themselves, they're way too busy fighting for humanity to care about something as trivial as a small number of individual humans, say 9 to 10 figures, the Imperium itself will hardly notice those few missing so it's a price well worth paying if you make the Imperium as a whole safer that way.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    The poster child for this behavior being the Marines Malevolent, who will deliberately shell inhabited civilian towns to pre-emptively deny an enemy fortified positions before engaging. They are still considered the Good Guys.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    With different levels of technology on the same planet, you have to ask, "Why?"
    Why would the imperium, in its infinite might, not convert the ferals into citizens and put lasguns into their hands?
    Most feral worlds stay feral because the planet is either completely worthless, or too dangerous for anyone to risk it.
    *Raises a hand* Sometimes they do. There are regiments of feral-world Guardsmen. Despite appearences, they tend to require far less attention from the Commissariat than you might expect - they're too ill-educated to really question technology, and their savage, brutalistic interpretation of "Emperor As God" doesn't leave much room for questions and heresy to creep in, once some of the more.... exotic practices have been curbed.

    Similarly, one of the reasons that they DON'T always do it is because feral world humans tend to make excellent recruiting worlds for Astartes. As they tend to have a more sparse population than Imperial Worlds, Civilised Worlds and most Feudal worlds, they're not always able to support Astartes recruitment and answer a Guard levy, so it's one or the other and Astartes get first pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish
    I disagree with this pretty strongly. For every "honest defender of the normal people" marine, there's a Black Templar who'll purge your whole town, or a Minotaur who'll punch you with a powerfist because you're in his way.
    I've seen this said a couple of times lately, and I'm not sure where it comes from - I mean yeah, the Black Templars aren't the nicest Astartes out there, but they're far and away not the worst by a long shot, it's just odd to see the same thing said in quick succession. Have I missed a meme, perhaps?
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    If you have, I have as well - I just reached for the first examples of "nasty marines" I could think of. Glyphstone has given an example that i was struggling to remember.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Probably because out of all the Loyalist chapters, I think the Black Templars are the most outwardly and openly pious and accepting of the Emperor-As-God creed, so by extension they are one of the most strident and intolerant towards any deviation from that belief. I'm not familiar with any specific examples of them brutalizing civilians the way, say, Marines Malevolent or Carcharodons are known for, unless your community is unlucky enough to have a psyker living in it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    Absolutely. The categories are broad descriptors, based on the most relevant feature of the planet.
    With the vast colonization of the empire, most planets will fall pretty solidly into one category, but with the right description and background (and GM permission as always) you could easily have a feral world filled with shrines.
    Hive and Forge worlds might be a stretch to combine with other types, as I imagine most of the planet will be stripped of resources in order to build the massive structures, but there will always be exceptions.

    With different levels of technology on the same planet, you have to ask, "Why?"
    Why would the imperium, in its infinite might, not convert the ferals into citizens and put lasguns into their hands?
    Most feral worlds stay feral because the planet is either completely worthless, or too dangerous for anyone to risk it.
    I feel like I should clarify a bit, I was suggesting a forge world with stereotypical traits of a hive world like sarcastically dense population or heavy industry to supply basic materials like lasguns or boltshells or a hive world with a large sect of adeptus mechanicas more in line with what would be expected of a forge world.

    As for the tech level of planets, I can fairly easily visualize a world that has one thing on it that draws in outsiders like a large temple, specific resource deposit, or a noble families crash pad but is otherwise undeveloped. However, I am not sure how common that is in the setting.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish
    I disagree with this pretty strongly. For every "honest defender of the normal people" marine, there's a Black Templar who'll purge your whole town, or a Minotaur who'll punch you with a powerfist because you're in his way.
    How many "honest defenders" are there? It seams to me that the Imperium has run quite short on those and the ones I can think of would be guardsmen not marines.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2018-09-27 at 03:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Probably because out of all the Loyalist chapters, I think the Black Templars are the most outwardly and openly pious and accepting of the Emperor-As-God creed, so by extension they are one of the most strident and intolerant towards any deviation from that belief. I'm not familiar with any specific examples of them brutalizing civilians the way, say, Marines Malevolent or Carcharodons are known for, unless your community is unlucky enough to have a psyker living in it.
    Fair enough, I was just curious

    My most keen memory of the BTs is the novel Helsreach, wherein they're predominantly shown to be determined defenders of humanity. They take no nonsense of course, and verbally smack down the "cowardly" Salamanders when they show up, but by and large they're pretty friendly even to the lowly mortals.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aneurin View Post
    All of which takes a lot of time. Full Compliance takes generations to achieve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    (snip) but with the right description and background (and GM permission as always) you could easily have a feral world filled with shrines.
    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    Why would the imperium, in its infinite might, not convert the ferals into citizens and put lasguns into their hands?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    *Raises a hand* Sometimes they do. There are regiments of feral-world Guardsmen.
    Thats my point, why would they not. Its a proces, of cause, but that proces is your description and background. That is what makes your character cool and relevant to the universe. Use it to tell a story of a feral learning the ways of the imperium.

    When I say you have to ask "why", its not for my sake. Its so you can come up with an answer and use it for the story you want to tell :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    The might of the Imperium is far, far from infinite (you want practically infinite might? Weight till the Tyranid main fleet arrives one day...)
    That sounds like radical thinking. Tyranid are small bugs of no consequence, be at peace citizen! The Emperor, the astartes, and the brave soldiers of the imperium are unbeatable.
    Last edited by Incorrect; 2018-09-27 at 03:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    If you consider the RP aspect, you might want to consider alternatives to Tortle Str Ranger.
    I mean, why would the rest of the party trust this Tortal StRanger...

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    The Emperor, the astartes, and the brave soldiers of the imperium are unbeatable.
    To get a second opinion on this, we're now going live to our war correspondent embedded with the forces on Cadia...

    *vacuum crickets*

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    I feel like I should clarify a bit, I was suggesting a forge world with stereotypical traits of a hive world like sarcastically dense population or heavy industry to supply basic materials like lasguns or boltshells or a hive world with a large sect of adeptus mechanicas more in line with what would be expected of a forge world.

    As for the tech level of planets, I can fairly easily visualize a world that has one thing on it that draws in outsiders like a large temple, specific resource deposit, or a noble families crash pad but is otherwise undeveloped. However, I am not sure how common that is in the setting..
    Sure. Feral worlds make good spots for Adeptus Mechanicus reserch bases, Hive Worlds usually have significant industry, Forge Worlds need plenty of labourers within a short range to chant the prayer and pull the lever. The designations are descriptive, not proscriptive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    How many "honest defenders" are there? It seams to me that the Imperium has run quite short on those and the ones I can think of would be guardsmen not marines.
    The Salamanders are famously caring and humane. The Space wolves are, for the most part, unflinchingly heroic and understanding of human frailty. The Ultramarines want to see Roboute Guillimans' dream of good lives for the people of the Imperium and Captains like Uriel Ventris and Titus are great examples of real heroes - Uriel is sickened and furious when the Mortifactos help inquisitor Kryptmann use Exterminatus on a world to deny it to the Tyranids. The Blood Angels, when not going into psychotic sanguinary rages are hopeful (presumably a pun on "sanguine") and passionate in defense of mankind. The Dark Angels... uh... moving on. The Black Templars embody a great deal of the nobility of the Knights they are based on - the squad in the X of Mars books are noble defenders and just so damn cool.

    In my opinion, the chapters who keep to their own traditions, by and large, are good guys, because those traditions were established during the Golden Age of the Imperium. Subsequent foundings tend to be a bit more influenced by the modern Imperium ie Ecclesiarchy or Inquisitorial meddling.
    Last edited by Sinewmire; 2018-09-27 at 06:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinewmire View Post
    In my opinion, the chapters who keep to their own traditions, by and large, are good guys, because those traditions were established during the Golden Age of the Imperium. Subsequent foundings tend to be a bit more influenced by the modern Imperium ie Ecclesiarchy or Inquisitorial meddling.
    Just to chime in on this, but this doesn't have to be a strict rule either. Space Marine Chapters are famously independent, such that Inquisitors and the like generally have to ask for help from a Chapter Master instead of simply ordering it as per usual for them. Granted that there are specific groups of Space Marines, ala the Death Watch and Grey Knights, who basically only work hand in hand with the Inquisition, but those are the vast minority of Space Marines out there in the setting.

    Another way to look at it besides is that anyone who goes through, like, WWI levels of trauma to get into a fighting unit before becoming a post-human behemoth is going to have lots of troubles staying connected to humanity. Especially since Space Marines are all cloistered off from the rest of humanity for the most part, living their entire centuries-long lives fighting or training to fight.

    As far as the "one planet sharing several homeworlds" thing goes, I think it should be fine in a lot of cases. It should be kept in mind though that in many cases, like having an AdMech factory on a Hive World pumping lasguns, that seems like a character from there should just be a tech priest from a Hive World.

    Now, a character from the vast industrial wastelands between the hives would make a lot more sense as being from a Feral World than a Hive World.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinewmire View Post
    In my opinion, the chapters who keep to their own traditions, by and large, are good guys, because those traditions were established during the Golden Age of the Imperium. Subsequent foundings tend to be a bit more influenced by the modern Imperium ie Ecclesiarchy or Inquisitorial meddling.
    The interex, diasporex and several trillion other humans and xenos who were living more or less peacefully and content on their worlds and never bothered anyone may disagree with the assumption that Space Marines were "good guys" by default in those days.

    The Grand Crusade was just about the most brutal holocaust you could imagine, and in the Horus Heresy novels, lots of Space Marines are depicted of having pretty much no respect or regard for the life of regular humans, Space Marines who do socialize with remembrancers and dare to utter that maybe it's not too bad to remember that in theory, they should be doing this to help those regular human beings are ridiculed and laughed at for being soft.

    Think of the incident when a group of Luna Wolves tramples several dozen unarmed civilians to death on their own ship because they don't want to waste any time bringing Horus to get medical attention, even the human-friendly Marines at the very best are like "Yeah, maybe we shouldn't have done that. But you need to understand our side, we really really care about Horus so we shouldn't get any blame for that." and that some people actually dare ask for any kind of punishment for the Space Marines involved is one of the key factors that helps instigate the Heresy because how dare they ask Space Marines to respect the lives of such puny beings as regular Imperial humans?

    Lots of Space Marines were pretty far beyond any reasonable Moral Event Horizon long before the Heresy.
    Last edited by Delta; 2018-09-27 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    The whole point of this discussion was that 'Good Guys' are not 'Nice Guys', in a great many ways. Some, like the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, manage to be both. Some, like the Black LegionLuna Wolves, don't.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    But especially back in those days, it was arguable if they were even the good guys. In 40k, at least they really do fight against existential threats so unimaginably powerful that they really can argue that sacrificing whole worlds might be necessary to keep humanity as a whole safe.

    During the Crusade, they were simply conquerors who showed up, killed everything that wasn't human whether it posed any threat or not, and everything that was human got exactly one chance to shout "All hail the Emperor!" and surrender or be brutally struck down, and none of them had any idea about Chaos Gods or anything like that, they weren't doing this to protect humanity from any existential threat, they were just doing it to spread the glory of the Emperor. They were neither nice nor good guys if you look at it like that.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Fair. The Emperor (who is neither a Good Guy nor a Nice Guy) was in charge then, and they were both honor-bound and probably psychically compelled into doing whatever he felt like. So maybe it's telling that the Marines started getting more 'good' after he was crippled.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2018-09-27 at 12:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    But especially back in those days, it was arguable if they were even the good guys. In 40k, at least they really do fight against existential threats so unimaginably powerful that they really can argue that sacrificing whole worlds might be necessary to keep humanity as a whole safe.

    During the Crusade, they were simply conquerors who showed up, killed everything that wasn't human whether it posed any threat or not, and everything that was human got exactly one chance to shout "All hail the Emperor!" and surrender or be brutally struck down, and none of them had any idea about Chaos Gods or anything like that, they weren't doing this to protect humanity from any existential threat, they were just doing it to spread the glory of the Emperor. They were neither nice nor good guys if you look at it like that.
    There is a school of thought on that that's existed for a few years, and it's this: Even though the Imperium as a whole didn't know it, Chaos was real. It was an actual, tangible force of destruction and corruption at large in the galaxy, and the Emperor knew that. That is why he began the Crusade - because if he didn't then, as cruel and violent as the Imperium seems, the alternative was to allow Chaos to continue unchecked which would categorically bring about the extinction of all human life in the galaxy.

    There isn't just one source that confirms that - various human and xenos characters have walked the webway, swam through the warp, experienced visions or even travelled through time and seen it occur first hand - if Chaos wins, all of humanity burns without exception.

    So in a way, saying that the Crusade isn't good is an anachronism - *WE* obviously know that genocide and conquest are not good things. But in the 30k plotline, knowing what the Emperor knew, it was necessary because the alternative was worse. Allowing people to continue mixing with xenos and worshipping their false gods and revering their shamen and witches (unsanctioned psykers, as we now call them) guaranteed the corruption of their souls; death is a genuinely preferable alternative, in the 40k lore.

    Don't get me wrong, we're absolutely talking "Greater Good" here insofar as killing some humans to ensure the survival of others, and no one is arguing that they are Nice. But it remains true that in 30 and 40k, Chaos is not just a religion or a philosophical theory - it genuinely is the extinction of the galaxy, and to oppose it is the default "Good" position.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Of course the Emperor knew about Chaos, that's not a theory, that can be considered fact. Some primarchs obviously knew a little about it too, but what I remember from the first Horus trilogy, even his most trusted son knew nothing beyond "There are entities living in the warp, they can sometimes enter our world and do things that seem supernatural" (he clearly denies the idea of "Chaos Gods" being a thing when Erebus (**** that guy) first tells him about them), and the regular Space Marines knew nothing.

    So that's not an argument here, arguing about whether what the Emperor did was for better or worse is pointless, because we have no idea what limits his knowledge of the future had. Maybe he did what he did because it was the best possible future and every other would have been worse, maybe he was just a **** blinded by his own hubris, we simply don't know and I'm pretty sure there will never be a definitive answer to this.

    But I'm talking about the Space Marines, they knew nothing about Chaos, they knew nothing about dangers that threatened the whole of mankind, they were just being told "Go out there, conquer, crush and kill, for the Emperor!" and they did, and it's quite clear that by the end of the Crusade, most of them had lost any respect for regular human beings if they ever had a lot of that, they are absolutely fine with killing people and letting even Imperials die not for some Greater Good, but because they simply don't care. They casually annihilated xenos cultures that posed absolutely no threat to the Imperium, and as soon as a human culture posted even the slightest bit of resistance to joining up and immediately kneeling before the Imperium they were brutally crushed not because they thought they were protecting them from some great evil, but just because they were convinced that the Imperium was such a swell place that it's quite acceptable to kill a few millions here and there to get some more billions to join up, whether they wanted to or not.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    I think youre still giving them too much...not thought, they can think for themselves...volition, i guess. They didnt conquer and convert non Imperial planets because they believed the Imperium was a better place to live; they did it because the Emperor told them to. They would disobey him as easily as they would voluntarily cough up their own lungs. He did the same thing with the Thunder Warriors before them, the Astartes were nothing but tools bound to obey his will without question or hesitation. And he wanted the galaxy compliant to his vision of humanity's future.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    He did the same thing with the Thunder Warriors before them, the Astartes were nothing but tools bound to obey his will without question or hesitation. And he wanted the galaxy compliant to his vision of humanity's future.
    It's been suggested, more than once, that the Emperor knew this also, and was planning for the Astartes to ultimately end up in the same position as the Thunder Warriors, leaving only pure humans behind.

    In many ways, that explains a great deal of the problems with Astartes in the Heresy and then the 41st millenium; they were never meant to be around as long as they were, because they were unstable and prone to detaching from their humanity and lapsing into megalomania, so that even the "good" ones are bound to end up like the Marines Malevolent, the Flesh Tearers and the Minotaurs.

    It also explains why he was so determined that the Crusade happened quickly, and that he was so obsessed with getting into the webway; the sooner he did that, the sooner he could do away with Astartes, and ideally do so before they reached their... "expiration date".
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    In many ways, that explains a great deal of the problems with Astartes in the Heresy and then the 41st millenium; they were never meant to be around as long as they were, because they were unstable and prone to detaching from their humanity and lapsing into megalomania, so that even the "good" ones are bound to end up like the Marines Malevolent, the Flesh Tearers and the Minotaurs.
    It's not all of them. Loken is shown to be especially "human-friendly", and one of the oldest ones (Cruze, I think?) is really appalled by what has become of the Crusade, I wouldn't absolve them of all blame simply because they were indoctrinated, some of them were able to second guess themselves, it's just really easy to think everyone else is worthless because you're so much bigger, stronger and tougher than anyone else.

    But that's drifting into another discussion, all I wanted is to correct the opinion that Crusade-era Space Marines where by definition "the good guys", they were weapons to be used by whoever gave the command without any hesitation or consideration for human life, even if the guy giving the orders has good intentions, a lot of the things they did could've been done with a massively lower bodycount without endangering the Crusade itself.

    And the Emperor sent them out to spread the Imperial Truth as gospel knowing full well that it was not only a blatant lie, but that it would leave his elite forces completely unprepared if they ever encountered the forces of Chaos. I mean, imagine how differently things might have gone if he had warned Horus about the Chaos Gods before Davin? If he had just told Magnus "Um, yeah, maybe better not disturb me for the next couple years because I'm doing some really important stuff that could doom everyone if things go wrong, if you have a really important message please leave it with Malcador, okay son?", stuff like that makes it hard to consider the Emperor a "good guy", he had/has good intentions for humanity, but it seems as if he was way too focused on his endgame and too convinced of his own power to think of the "short-term" consequences of his actions (again, that's of course my personal speculation since we simply have no idea what his actual thoughts were)

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    What can you guys tell me about the Thunder Warriors? I've never heard about them before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    What can you guys tell me about the Thunder Warriors? I've never heard about them before.
    They were, essentially, proto-Space Marines. The Emperor designed and grew them in his secret laboratories, then used them as shock troops during his campaign to conquer unify Earth. They were taller, stronger, and more savage than modern-day Astartes - stronger even then the Custodes - but had a built-in genetic sequence that gave them an exceptionally short lifespan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    It's not all of them. Loken is shown to be especially "human-friendly", and one of the oldest ones (Cruze, I think?) is really appalled by what has become of the Crusade, I wouldn't absolve them of all blame simply because they were indoctrinated, some of them were able to second guess themselves, it's just really easy to think everyone else is worthless because you're so much bigger, stronger and tougher than anyone else.
    Possible - if anyone was exempt from the Emperor's unwavering control, it would be the Primarchs. Not only were they raised away from him instead of direct in his labs, they were both his 'sons' (Worst. Father. Ever.) and intended as his substitute generals. Giving them enough autonomy to interpret his instructions was necessary, and naturally it bit him in the butt in a gigantic fashion.

    But that's drifting into another discussion, all I wanted is to correct the opinion that Crusade-era Space Marines where by definition "the good guys", they were weapons to be used by whoever gave the command without any hesitation or consideration for human life, even if the guy giving the orders has good intentions, a lot of the things they did could've been done with a massively lower bodycount without endangering the Crusade itself.
    I'd agree that Crusade-era Marines weren't good guys, but that's because I don't also think they were bad guys, because as you said they were living weapons with very little choice in their means of use. Attributing moral descriptors like Good or Bad or Merciful or Humane would be like giving those labels to a chainsword or bolt pistol; the only thing that matters is the person wielding it, and the Emperor was none of these things. While it's notable that the worst traits of the Marines savagery and inhumanity (Marines Malevolent, Carcharodons, etc.) are post-Great Crusade, so are chapters like the Space Wolves and Salamanders being pro-human. They only had the chance to develop these attitudes and opinions once they were free of the Emperor's unwavering attention.

    And the Emperor sent them out to spread the Imperial Truth as gospel knowing full well that it was not only a blatant lie, but that it would leave his elite forces completely unprepared if they ever encountered the forces of Chaos. I mean, imagine how differently things might have gone if he had warned Horus about the Chaos Gods before Davin? If he had just told Magnus "Um, yeah, maybe better not disturb me for the next couple years because I'm doing some really important stuff that could doom everyone if things go wrong, if you have a really important message please leave it with Malcador, okay son?", stuff like that makes it hard to consider the Emperor a "good guy", he had/has good intentions for humanity, but it seems as if he was way too focused on his endgame and too convinced of his own power to think of the "short-term" consequences of his actions (again, that's of course my personal speculation since we simply have no idea what his actual thoughts were)
    Pretty much. The Emperor was far from perfect, he had innumerable flaws that inevitably ended up causing gigantic problems. He obviously thought he was perfect and his strategies were flawless, and the number of humans who died in the greater service of Humanity was never even on his radar of consequences to be considered. The only way he could possibly be considered Good would be if you accept his long-term motive of forging an immortal, all-powerful humanity. He was never Nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    What can you guys tell me about the Thunder Warriors? I've never heard about them before.
    From what I gather they were the ultimate hipsters, Space Marines before they were cool. They were the first superhuman warriors the Emperor created for his war to unify Terra under his leadership, the official story is that they were all wiped out toward the end of the unification wars, but in reality they were most likely either intentionally sacrificed or massacred by the Emperor because he expected them to be more dangerous than useful at this point (they had a limited lifespan and started to decay both physically and mentally after a while), and he replaced them with the Astartes.

    But feel free to correct me, anyone, I haven't read any of the books directly concerned with the Thunder Warriors.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    What can you guys tell me about the Thunder Warriors? I've never heard about them before.
    The Horus Heresy novel 'The Outcast Dead' features a couple of Thunder Warriors and isn't a bad book as well
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    The Horus Heresy novel 'The Outcast Dead' features a couple of Thunder Warriors and isn't a bad book as well
    Yeah, the little TW lore we really have is from the perspective of the handful of surviving TW themselves, so it's as unreliable as everything else in 40k.




    Now, in other news, a shameless self-plug for anyone who isn't already hanging out in the Discord channel - I've been undertaking a project to rebuild Rogue Trader into a DH2e-styled format, and patching a bunch of other things along the way. My 1.0 alpha draft is complete, and while I'll put a compendium link up in Homebrew later, mentioning it directly here in the 40K RPG thread is probably the best way to get potential eyes on it for reading and critique.

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