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2018-09-28, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
What are the major differences between DH1 and DH2? And was Only War written with the DH2 "engine"?
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2018-09-28, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
Strictly speaking, Dark Heresy (2014) was written using the Only War (2012) engine. But they do use the same ruleset.
Primary changes:
-Characters have Aptitudes that make certain skills or talents cheaper/more expensive, instead of locked Career tracks with fixed options.
-Characters requisition items with Influence like Rogue Trader instead of earning and spending money.
-New rules for Subtlety and investigations mechanically encourage less kick in the door style gameplay.
-An overhauled combat system with too many small changed to list here.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2018-09-28 at 02:12 PM.
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2018-09-29, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
Technically, they were both based on the Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play 2nd Edition system (2005), which itself was based on the 1986 version. Take out the setting and more greater focus on ranged combat, and they're basically the same.
Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
He's surprisingly well written, given the memes that have been generated - a surprising blend of confidence/arrogance (because he is THE EMPEROR after all) with self awareness, because he knows that even his omniscience is limited and that there are more things that he should have done before relying on his sons.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2018-09-29, 05:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
The one huge thing I still have a problem with is what I mentioned before. After Ullanor, he went home, left Horus in charge and didn't tell anyone anything. I just don't get his motivation not to at least tell Horus "Listen, there are incredibly powerful beings in the warp, forces of Chaos which will sooner or later attack us, I have to go back to Terra to prepare for that, because I'm the only one who can. You continue the Crusade to get as many people as possible into the Imperium to be saved, and beware the dangers of Chaos!"
It shouldn't need a genius to figure out that a) Horus and the other primarchs would be miffed about the whole situation, just leaving them without a word and b) wasn't it inevitable that they'd run into Chaos-natured trouble sooner or later? He left them absolutely defenseless against that by either lying to them or not telling them anything at all, that just feels weird and reeks of massive hubris to me.Last edited by Delta; 2018-09-29 at 05:19 AM.
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2018-09-29, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-29, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I can understand the Emperor being so cautious when it came to teaching his sons about Chaos, merely knowing that it exists invites potential corruption. Ignorance is safer if it can be properly managed, but that would recquire personally checking up on them or sending Malcador to do it periodically, but the Emperor had to stay on Terra to work on the webway and Malcador was busy ruling the Imperium on his behalf.
Not telling the Primarchs about the webway project seems more foolish, but something that important I can understand keeping a secret. If the Eldar of any breed found out they'd try to storm Terra with everything they had to stop it, keeping the knowledge in the minds of two of the greatest human psykers and otherwise within the warded walls of the Palace is probably the best way to keep it secret from xenos psykers or chaos sorcerers, as well as more mundane espionage.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2018-09-30, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I don't have a problem with not telling anyone while he was personally leading the crusade. As long as he was there, and would've been able to personally intervene, sure, I get being confident you can contain any catastrophe.
Not telling the Primarchs about the webway project seems more foolish, but something that important I can understand keeping a secret. If the Eldar of any breed found out they'd try to storm Terra with everything they had to stop it, keeping the knowledge in the minds of two of the greatest human psykers and otherwise within the warded walls of the Palace is probably the best way to keep it secret from xenos psykers or chaos sorcerers, as well as more mundane espionage.Last edited by Delta; 2018-09-30 at 04:18 AM.
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2018-09-30, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I wonder if the Emperor really underestimated how capable of independent thought the Primarchs were and just assumed they'd keep nicely on the tracks he'd laid down for them. Interestingly in 'Master of Mankind' the Emperor seems quite contemptuous of Space Marines in general, referring to one of the Primarchs ( Magnus, I think) as 'A weapon that thought it was my son '
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2018-09-30, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
There's a world of difference between not trusting someone to keep a secret and not trusting them to stay loyal. It might not even have been a question about whether the Emperor thought that Horus would tell the secret, and that he might, entirely inadvertently, let on that there is a secret to begin with.
Besides, if the goal is to quash Chaos by eliminating all knowledge of it telling anyone is entirely counter-productive. It's just one more person you're going to have to eliminate to destroy that knowledge forever. If the Emperor had any plans for Horus beyond the Crusade, then telling him is a terrible idea.
Then again, nothing I've heard or read makes me think the Emperor ever had much use for the Primarchs beyond the Crusade, or at least outside of some very specific end-goals. He certainly didn't intend for them to lead the Imperium, or he wouldn't have formed the Council of Terra out of pure humans.Amazing Banshee avatar by Strawberries. Many, many thanks.
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2018-09-30, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I'm going to use 'Massive Hubris' as a ship name sonewhere.
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2018-09-30, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
That doesn't make sense. So the Emperor didn't trust Horus to not fall to the seduction of Chaos, so he didn't tell him about Chaos causing him to face it completely unprepared? Especially if you fear that the Chaos Gods might try to seduce him, wouldn't it make sense to prepare for that eventuality?
And the second point doesn't make much more sense, because Horus did know there were daemon-like beings living in the Warp, so if you fear he might inadvertently reveal there's a secret about the Warp... well, guess what, he can already do that.
If he really feared about the primarchs loyalty, what he did was about the worst thing he could've done. Put them far away, way beyond his control, with all the armies still massed together giving them ample time, space and opportunity to not only become disloyal, but also the means to wage war against him. Wouldn't it have made much more sense then to divide the primarchs up as much as possible, spread them out, don't give them a leader to rally around but fractured so at worst you'd have to deal with one or two of them rebelling?
In my opinion, the most reasonable explanation is and remains limitless hubris. The Emperor just didn't think anyone could ever challenge him. He simply didn't care much for the Crusade after Ullanor, he either thought Horus would never rebel against him or more probably that if he did, it simply wouldn't matter because he could just strike him down if need be. Same as he never expected Magnus would blast through his defenses, so he never took care to mention any of that to him. He viewed the primarchs as weapons to be discarded after use and never even thought of the eventuality that they might do things he did not expect, and that several of these incidents could work together in a way that might even beyond his ability to handle.
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2018-09-30, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
As Aneurin says below, telling Horus what Chaos was, defeated the entire objective of the Crusade and the Imperial Truth, as that knowledge only fed the enemy. All Horus - or any of the Primarchs or Astartes - needed to know was that there bad things out in the galaxy, and that they could be killed with enough Boltguns and chainswords like any kind of human or xenos; anything beyond that was irrelevant.
Originally, the Emperor never had any intention of using the Primarchs and the Astartes together. The Primarchs were, as children, stolen away by Chaos and hidden around the galaxy; unable to create more Primarchs, the Emperor instead used what was left of their genetic makeup, watered it down, and made a million transhuman soldiers to take the place of his 20 superhuman generals.
The Primarchs returning was a surprise; one or two of them would have been reasonable (one of which would have been Magnus, who was in constant psychic communication with his father) but all of them returning was staggeringly unlikely. As such, the devotional bond between them and their Astartes was probably coincidental - it certainly shouldn't have been deliberately designed to be strong enough to overpower the devotion between Astartes and Emperor.
So anyway... The Emperor probably had a plan for what to do with 20 Primarchs after the Crusade was won, and when that wasn't relevant he cobbled together a plan for what to do with the Astartes (ie, Thunder Warriors mark 2)... but both together went in a way he couldn't have predicted.
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2018-09-30, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I'm saying he did trust Horus not to fall to the seduction of Chaos. Or, at least that he thought it more important not to let on about the existence of Chaos to anyone than it was to prepare Horus to face it. Suppressing knowledge of Chaos and, subsequently, its power was more important to the Emperor than dealing with Chaos on a local level.
Maybe the Emperor thought he'd weakened Chaos enough not to worry about the Primarchs. Maybe he thought Horus could resist anyway. Maybe he believed he could handle Horus no matter what. I completely agree with you about the massive hubris thing - after all, the Emperor did set out to establish his own vision on how the galaxy ought to be, regardless of whether anyone else agreed or wanted him to do it.
And the second point doesn't make much more sense, because Horus did know there were daemon-like beings living in the Warp, so if you fear he might inadvertently reveal there's a secret about the Warp... well, guess what, he can already do that.[/QUOTE]
This goes to illustrate my point about the Emperor not trusting Horus not to share this knowledge: because Horus did share this knowledge. Horus knew there was a secret about the warp, but did not know there were god-like creatures living within. Just horrible monsters. He knew he wasn't supposed to tell, and he did it anyway. I completely understand the Emperor not wanting to share something he did not want getting out.
I've never quite been sure why the Emperor didn't just make another set of Primarchs. I mean, yeah, I understand wanting to get the first lot back or at least neutralize them so they don't end up working against him, but it seems a little silly to trust them after Chaos basically stole them. Especially when one comes back with wings, and another with hands of living metal. And a third one's completely insane. A fourth one won't tell anyone where he'd been or what he'd been up to, and has somehow become two people.
Surely that's just a little bit suspicious.Amazing Banshee avatar by Strawberries. Many, many thanks.
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2018-09-30, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
That illustrated my point perfectly. Yes, that's exactly what the Emperor thought. Obviously, he was very, very wrong.
If Horus had known about Chaos, they would've been able to establish a rapport with the Interex much easier. If Erebus (seriously, **** that guy) still tried to steal the anathame, maybe they would manage to sort it out instead of just insta-killing each other. The whole affair on Davin would've played out very differently if Horus understood what to expect there, and even if he still ended up in the warp vision, understanding what the Chaos Gods are would've surely helped him understand that he's being tricked.
And on the notion of the Interex, well, guess what, there are already many people in the universe who know about Chaos and some even dabble with it, letting an army rage through the galaxy without any informed supervision, if he seriously expected none of the Astarted to ever find out... well, he was wrong, obviously. If you don't believe me, go and ask a couple of Chaos Marines how well all that "No one can know about Chaos!" worked out.
I understand what the purpose of the Crusade was, but the fact remains, simple as that, that his plan failed because it was based on some very wrong assumptions, coupled with him overestimating his own ability to handle complications, and a lot of people paid the price for that.
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2018-10-01, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
He physically couldn't. Making the Primarchs wasn't just genetics, the Emperor also used sorcery to bargain with the Chaos Powers and then he refused to honour his side of the deal after he had gotten what he wanted. As such, the Chaos Powers withdrew their support and made it their business to upset his plans, more so than had he started the crusade without their help.
Similarly, the laboratory were he made them was destroyed when the Primarchs were taken away, and the tech in there was unique and irreplaceable, due to it being partly sorcerous and partly archeotech.
A fourth one won't tell anyone where he'd been or what he'd been up to, and has somehow become two people.
Originally Posted by Delta~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2018-10-01, 05:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
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2018-10-01, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
Magnus was going to be plugged into the Golden Throne, which at the time was the control panel for the Eternity Gate - the human-built entrance into the Webway. The Emperor only did it in his place because it had to be converted into his life-support machine after the Heresy.
Presumably there might have been similar roles planned for the others, if they weren't just disposed of.
The Primarchs' "mansions", if I remember right, were built as a part of the foundations to the Imperial Palace. They were probably meant to be for the Primarchs all along, given that the Emperor intended for them to be born and raised there. Whether or not they were built as living space or as a prison has not really been clarified....~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2018-10-01, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-02, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
Tzeentch portrays it to Magnus as being an involuntary and painful thing. Magnus strapped to the throne, his body a husk writhing in constant pain as I recall.
Obviously this is suspect because it's Tzeentch saying it, but I don't think he ever actually lied to Magnus about anything and it came during his big revelation moment to Magnus. The Emperor always was a 'Greater Good' kind of guy too, so I could easily see him planning to enslave Magnus to the task of maintaining the webway in order to provide a safe FTL system for humanity.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2018-10-03, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
In all likeliness, the Emperor would have instructed Magnus to take the Throne - not a direct order or demand, but it would have been explained as something that he needed Magnus to do - and Magnus would have obeyed willingly, because he loved his father.
At that point, the process was not particularly painful, just a matter of will. It only became so when Magnus broke the wards around the Eternity Gate and it was attacked by the daemonic legions; the effort of keeping the Gate sealed became more intense than was ever expected, and the Emperor had to shoulder the burden himself while also projecting the Astronomicon and all the other things that he is suspected of doing at the same time, like sending visions to Sanguinius, directing and conversing with the Custodes in the Impossible City, and (allegedly in some circles) maintaining the psychic projection that was Malcador. [unconfirmed, but still a SPOILER]~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2018-10-03, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
Does anyone know how many Space Wolves there are? It seems like every source is massively contradictory. Some imply that that each Great Company is about the size of a Codex Company, and thus the entire chapter is somewhat larger then a Codex Chapter. Others place it at a oversized chapter, similar in size to the Black Templars (about 3 thousand Astates), and a few make it seem that each Great Company is about the size of a Codex Chapter, making about 12 thousand Space Wolves. Which would make it about half the size it was before the Horus Heresy.
Personally, I go with the last option. But am curious about other people's opinions.
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2018-10-09, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
But that's drifting into another discussion, all I wanted is to correct the opinion that Crusade-era Space Marines where by definition "the good guys", they were weapons to be used by whoever gave the command without any hesitation or consideration for human life, even if the guy giving the orders has good intentions, a lot of the things they did could've been done with a massively lower bodycount without endangering the Crusade itself.
B: I also stopped short of saying that the Great Crusade era marines were good guys too, I said that modern marines with their traditions from the Imperial Truth era were the 'good guys', and there is a huge difference there - look at the Heresy Era Space Wolves, and the Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar. Their traditions were founded in a time of optimism and atheism, and are being followed in a time where their followers are restricted to defence and salvation rather than attack and oppression.
I've never quite been sure why the Emperor didn't just make another set of Primarchs. I mean, yeah, I understand wanting to get the first lot back or at least neutralize them so they don't end up working against him, but it seems a little silly to trust them after Chaos basically stole them. Especially when one comes back with wings, and another with hands of living metal. And a third one's completely insane. A fourth one won't tell anyone where he'd been or what he'd been up to, and has somehow become two people.
Surely that's just a little bit suspicious.
Obviously this is suspect because it's Tzeentch saying it, but I don't think he ever actually lied to Magnus about anything and it came during his big revelation moment to Magnus.
Does anyone know how many Space Wolves there are?
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2018-10-09, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
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2018-10-09, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2018-10-09, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
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2018-10-10, 03:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I specifically remember it being referenced in The First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit. I seem to remember it also coming up in A Thousand Sons, but I won't swear to it as I can't recall the details.
Originally Posted by lightningcat
What is notable is that their fleet is about twice as big as that of the Ultramarines - but then, Space Wolves are often depicted as there being one Pack (Squad) being sent out on an errand, rather than mass deployments like other Chapters, so twice as many ships doesn't necessarily mean twice as many Astartes.
Either way; Twelve Thousand is hugely unlikely, though.
Which would make it about half the size it was before the Horus Heresy.Last edited by Wraith; 2018-10-10 at 03:26 AM.
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2018-10-11, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I think Space Wolves also use a wider variety of space ships instead of the standard Space Marine Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. I know that the 6th edition codex talked about them reclaiming space ships from chaos pirates to use and whatnot, so I imagine their fleets include a wider variety craft and models than a normal Chapter might have. They also have deep ties with a Navigator House.
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2018-10-12, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
I remember the Space Wolves being one of the smaller legions. Not as small as either the Salamanders or Thousand Sons, but below the average size, which was in the 100,000 Astartes range. But I think they were smaller then the World Eaters during the Night of the Wolf, although I don't know by how much. While the Ultramarines were much larger then the average.
But the Canis Helix was no more of a problem in 39k then it was in 30k, and they did not have any reason (that mattered to them) to not remain at full legion strength if they could. Although they did have a lot of disasters hitting them at the end of 40k and early 41k, which would decimate them.
Although that does bring up a different question. Why are there no Salamander successor chapters? Or if there are, what are they? Both the Salamanders and the Raven Guard were almost wiped out during the drop site massacre. But the Raven Guard rebuild and have plenty of successors chapters, even with the problems they have.
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2018-10-12, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
Last edited by Haval; 2018-10-12 at 08:29 PM.
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2018-10-13, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?
The Canix Helix is a mutation - it's unstable and due to ten thousand years of 'natural selection' it now only works on humans from Fenris, who are the descendants of colonists who underwent gene-therapy in order to better survive on a Death World.
Back in M31 it wasn't such a big deal - the mutation hadn't yet set in or developed. In M41 it makes a huge difference; it's why the Space Wolves can only recruit from one world, and why all of their successor Chapters (who CAN'T recruit from that world) have failed and become extinct.
Although that does bring up a different question. Why are there no Salamander successor chapters? Or if there are, what are they? Both the Salamanders and the Raven Guard were almost wiped out during the drop site massacre. But the Raven Guard rebuild and have plenty of successors chapters, even with the problems they have.
The reason as to why the Salamanders have so few is because their geneseed is also ridiculously unstable - that's why there were only around 29,000 of them at the Drop Site Massacre, while other Legions were rocking 100,000 or even 250,000 in the case of the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers. Even in M31 it was a problem, and with the decline of technology it has never been solved until Belisarius Cawl unveiled Astartes 2.0 and also when Primaris Marines were introduced.
The Raven Guard, while depleted, had no such weakness and they were able to found successors at a "normal" rate. Although there is some disparity in how they did that, as after Istvaan V they were said to have only 3,000 Astartes left, but somehow managed to remain as a Chapter AND to have at least 3 confirmed Second Founding successors, with one unconfirmed, only 7 years later.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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