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  1. - Top - End - #661
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    What are the major differences between DH1 and DH2? And was Only War written with the DH2 "engine"?
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Strictly speaking, Dark Heresy (2014) was written using the Only War (2012) engine. But they do use the same ruleset.

    Primary changes:
    -Characters have Aptitudes that make certain skills or talents cheaper/more expensive, instead of locked Career tracks with fixed options.
    -Characters requisition items with Influence like Rogue Trader instead of earning and spending money.
    -New rules for Subtlety and investigations mechanically encourage less kick in the door style gameplay.
    -An overhauled combat system with too many small changed to list here.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2018-09-28 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Strictly speaking, Dark Heresy (2014) was written using the Only War (2012) engine. But they do use the same ruleset.
    Technically, they were both based on the Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play 2nd Edition system (2005), which itself was based on the 1986 version. Take out the setting and more greater focus on ranged combat, and they're basically the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
    Pretty much. The Emperor was far from perfect, he had innumerable flaws that inevitably ended up causing gigantic problems. He obviously thought he was perfect and his strategies were flawless, and the number of humans who died in the greater service of Humanity was never even on his radar of consequences to be considered. The only way he could possibly be considered Good would be if you accept his long-term motive of forging an immortal, all-powerful humanity. He was never Nice.
    I agree with everything else you've said, but the bolded part is, respectfully, the one that I don't. There isn't a lot written from the Emperor's perspective, but we get quite a bit in The Outcast Dead and also Master of Mankind - both of them feature lengthy conversation where the Emperor explains his regrets and laments on some of the mistakes he's made, but by and large he genuinely believes that what he was doing was necessary for the survival of mankind as a species and he just wishes that he could have done more before the cracks started to show.

    He's surprisingly well written, given the memes that have been generated - a surprising blend of confidence/arrogance (because he is THE EMPEROR after all) with self awareness, because he knows that even his omniscience is limited and that there are more things that he should have done before relying on his sons.
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  4. - Top - End - #664
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    The one huge thing I still have a problem with is what I mentioned before. After Ullanor, he went home, left Horus in charge and didn't tell anyone anything. I just don't get his motivation not to at least tell Horus "Listen, there are incredibly powerful beings in the warp, forces of Chaos which will sooner or later attack us, I have to go back to Terra to prepare for that, because I'm the only one who can. You continue the Crusade to get as many people as possible into the Imperium to be saved, and beware the dangers of Chaos!"

    It shouldn't need a genius to figure out that a) Horus and the other primarchs would be miffed about the whole situation, just leaving them without a word and b) wasn't it inevitable that they'd run into Chaos-natured trouble sooner or later? He left them absolutely defenseless against that by either lying to them or not telling them anything at all, that just feels weird and reeks of massive hubris to me.
    Last edited by Delta; 2018-09-29 at 05:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    reeks of massive hubris to me.
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    I can understand the Emperor being so cautious when it came to teaching his sons about Chaos, merely knowing that it exists invites potential corruption. Ignorance is safer if it can be properly managed, but that would recquire personally checking up on them or sending Malcador to do it periodically, but the Emperor had to stay on Terra to work on the webway and Malcador was busy ruling the Imperium on his behalf.

    Not telling the Primarchs about the webway project seems more foolish, but something that important I can understand keeping a secret. If the Eldar of any breed found out they'd try to storm Terra with everything they had to stop it, keeping the knowledge in the minds of two of the greatest human psykers and otherwise within the warded walls of the Palace is probably the best way to keep it secret from xenos psykers or chaos sorcerers, as well as more mundane espionage.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I can understand the Emperor being so cautious when it came to teaching his sons about Chaos, merely knowing that it exists invites potential corruption. Ignorance is safer if it can be properly managed, but that would recquire personally checking up on them or sending Malcador to do it periodically, but the Emperor had to stay on Terra to work on the webway and Malcador was busy ruling the Imperium on his behalf.
    I don't have a problem with not telling anyone while he was personally leading the crusade. As long as he was there, and would've been able to personally intervene, sure, I get being confident you can contain any catastrophe.

    Not telling the Primarchs about the webway project seems more foolish, but something that important I can understand keeping a secret. If the Eldar of any breed found out they'd try to storm Terra with everything they had to stop it, keeping the knowledge in the minds of two of the greatest human psykers and otherwise within the warded walls of the Palace is probably the best way to keep it secret from xenos psykers or chaos sorcerers, as well as more mundane espionage.
    Sure, but even then, not telling Horus about it just seems dumb. You put the guy in charge, at least tell him what he's dealing with. If you don't trust Horus to keep this knowledge secret, then you really shouldn't put him in charge of the Crusade... Sure, maybe he couldn't foresee exactly how it would happen, but the Emperor obviously knew the Chaos Gods would sooner or later make their move, and since he personally witnessed/stole some of their power, he should have known that there was at least a chance a completely ignorant Horus might be susceptible to their seduction, so why not prepare him for that? I just don't see the downside...
    Last edited by Delta; 2018-09-30 at 04:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    I wonder if the Emperor really underestimated how capable of independent thought the Primarchs were and just assumed they'd keep nicely on the tracks he'd laid down for them. Interestingly in 'Master of Mankind' the Emperor seems quite contemptuous of Space Marines in general, referring to one of the Primarchs ( Magnus, I think) as 'A weapon that thought it was my son '
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Sure, but even then, not telling Horus about it just seems dumb. You put the guy in charge, at least tell him what he's dealing with. If you don't trust Horus to keep this knowledge secret, then you really shouldn't put him in charge of the Crusade... Sure, maybe he couldn't foresee exactly how it would happen, but the Emperor obviously knew the Chaos Gods would sooner or later make their move, and since he personally witnessed/stole some of their power, he should have known that there was at least a chance a completely ignorant Horus might be susceptible to their seduction, so why not prepare him for that? I just don't see the downside...
    There's a world of difference between not trusting someone to keep a secret and not trusting them to stay loyal. It might not even have been a question about whether the Emperor thought that Horus would tell the secret, and that he might, entirely inadvertently, let on that there is a secret to begin with.

    Besides, if the goal is to quash Chaos by eliminating all knowledge of it telling anyone is entirely counter-productive. It's just one more person you're going to have to eliminate to destroy that knowledge forever. If the Emperor had any plans for Horus beyond the Crusade, then telling him is a terrible idea.


    Then again, nothing I've heard or read makes me think the Emperor ever had much use for the Primarchs beyond the Crusade, or at least outside of some very specific end-goals. He certainly didn't intend for them to lead the Imperium, or he wouldn't have formed the Council of Terra out of pure humans.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    I'm going to use 'Massive Hubris' as a ship name sonewhere.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aneurin View Post
    There's a world of difference between not trusting someone to keep a secret and not trusting them to stay loyal. It might not even have been a question about whether the Emperor thought that Horus would tell the secret, and that he might, entirely inadvertently, let on that there is a secret to begin with.
    That doesn't make sense. So the Emperor didn't trust Horus to not fall to the seduction of Chaos, so he didn't tell him about Chaos causing him to face it completely unprepared? Especially if you fear that the Chaos Gods might try to seduce him, wouldn't it make sense to prepare for that eventuality?

    And the second point doesn't make much more sense, because Horus did know there were daemon-like beings living in the Warp, so if you fear he might inadvertently reveal there's a secret about the Warp... well, guess what, he can already do that.

    If he really feared about the primarchs loyalty, what he did was about the worst thing he could've done. Put them far away, way beyond his control, with all the armies still massed together giving them ample time, space and opportunity to not only become disloyal, but also the means to wage war against him. Wouldn't it have made much more sense then to divide the primarchs up as much as possible, spread them out, don't give them a leader to rally around but fractured so at worst you'd have to deal with one or two of them rebelling?

    In my opinion, the most reasonable explanation is and remains limitless hubris. The Emperor just didn't think anyone could ever challenge him. He simply didn't care much for the Crusade after Ullanor, he either thought Horus would never rebel against him or more probably that if he did, it simply wouldn't matter because he could just strike him down if need be. Same as he never expected Magnus would blast through his defenses, so he never took care to mention any of that to him. He viewed the primarchs as weapons to be discarded after use and never even thought of the eventuality that they might do things he did not expect, and that several of these incidents could work together in a way that might even beyond his ability to handle.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Sure, but even then, not telling Horus about it just seems dumb. You put the guy in charge, at least tell him what he's dealing with.
    As Aneurin says below, telling Horus what Chaos was, defeated the entire objective of the Crusade and the Imperial Truth, as that knowledge only fed the enemy. All Horus - or any of the Primarchs or Astartes - needed to know was that there bad things out in the galaxy, and that they could be killed with enough Boltguns and chainswords like any kind of human or xenos; anything beyond that was irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aneurin View Post
    Then again, nothing I've heard or read makes me think the Emperor ever had much use for the Primarchs beyond the Crusade, or at least outside of some very specific end-goals. He certainly didn't intend for them to lead the Imperium, or he wouldn't have formed the Council of Terra out of pure humans.
    Originally, the Emperor never had any intention of using the Primarchs and the Astartes together. The Primarchs were, as children, stolen away by Chaos and hidden around the galaxy; unable to create more Primarchs, the Emperor instead used what was left of their genetic makeup, watered it down, and made a million transhuman soldiers to take the place of his 20 superhuman generals.
    The Primarchs returning was a surprise; one or two of them would have been reasonable (one of which would have been Magnus, who was in constant psychic communication with his father) but all of them returning was staggeringly unlikely. As such, the devotional bond between them and their Astartes was probably coincidental - it certainly shouldn't have been deliberately designed to be strong enough to overpower the devotion between Astartes and Emperor.

    So anyway... The Emperor probably had a plan for what to do with 20 Primarchs after the Crusade was won, and when that wasn't relevant he cobbled together a plan for what to do with the Astartes (ie, Thunder Warriors mark 2)... but both together went in a way he couldn't have predicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haval View Post
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    That doesn't make sense. So the Emperor didn't trust Horus to not fall to the seduction of Chaos, so he didn't tell him about Chaos causing him to face it completely unprepared? Especially if you fear that the Chaos Gods might try to seduce him, wouldn't it make sense to prepare for that eventuality?
    I'm saying he did trust Horus not to fall to the seduction of Chaos. Or, at least that he thought it more important not to let on about the existence of Chaos to anyone than it was to prepare Horus to face it. Suppressing knowledge of Chaos and, subsequently, its power was more important to the Emperor than dealing with Chaos on a local level.

    Maybe the Emperor thought he'd weakened Chaos enough not to worry about the Primarchs. Maybe he thought Horus could resist anyway. Maybe he believed he could handle Horus no matter what. I completely agree with you about the massive hubris thing - after all, the Emperor did set out to establish his own vision on how the galaxy ought to be, regardless of whether anyone else agreed or wanted him to do it.

    And the second point doesn't make much more sense, because Horus did know there were daemon-like beings living in the Warp, so if you fear he might inadvertently reveal there's a secret about the Warp... well, guess what, he can already do that.[/QUOTE]

    This goes to illustrate my point about the Emperor not trusting Horus not to share this knowledge: because Horus did share this knowledge. Horus knew there was a secret about the warp, but did not know there were god-like creatures living within. Just horrible monsters. He knew he wasn't supposed to tell, and he did it anyway. I completely understand the Emperor not wanting to share something he did not want getting out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Originally, the Emperor never had any intention of using the Primarchs and the Astartes together. The Primarchs were, as children, stolen away by Chaos and hidden around the galaxy; unable to create more Primarchs, the Emperor instead used what was left of their genetic makeup, watered it down, and made a million transhuman soldiers to take the place of his 20 superhuman generals.
    The Primarchs returning was a surprise; one or two of them would have been reasonable (one of which would have been Magnus, who was in constant psychic communication with his father) but all of them returning was staggeringly unlikely. As such, the devotional bond between them and their Astartes was probably coincidental - it certainly shouldn't have been deliberately designed to be strong enough to overpower the devotion between Astartes and Emperor.

    So anyway... The Emperor probably had a plan for what to do with 20 Primarchs after the Crusade was won, and when that wasn't relevant he cobbled together a plan for what to do with the Astartes (ie, Thunder Warriors mark 2)... but both together went in a way he couldn't have predicted.
    I've never quite been sure why the Emperor didn't just make another set of Primarchs. I mean, yeah, I understand wanting to get the first lot back or at least neutralize them so they don't end up working against him, but it seems a little silly to trust them after Chaos basically stole them. Especially when one comes back with wings, and another with hands of living metal. And a third one's completely insane. A fourth one won't tell anyone where he'd been or what he'd been up to, and has somehow become two people.

    Surely that's just a little bit suspicious.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    All Horus - or any of the Primarchs or Astartes - needed to know was that there bad things out in the galaxy, and that they could be killed with enough Boltguns and chainswords like any kind of human or xenos; anything beyond that was irrelevant.
    That illustrated my point perfectly. Yes, that's exactly what the Emperor thought. Obviously, he was very, very wrong.

    If Horus had known about Chaos, they would've been able to establish a rapport with the Interex much easier. If Erebus (seriously, **** that guy) still tried to steal the anathame, maybe they would manage to sort it out instead of just insta-killing each other. The whole affair on Davin would've played out very differently if Horus understood what to expect there, and even if he still ended up in the warp vision, understanding what the Chaos Gods are would've surely helped him understand that he's being tricked.

    And on the notion of the Interex, well, guess what, there are already many people in the universe who know about Chaos and some even dabble with it, letting an army rage through the galaxy without any informed supervision, if he seriously expected none of the Astarted to ever find out... well, he was wrong, obviously. If you don't believe me, go and ask a couple of Chaos Marines how well all that "No one can know about Chaos!" worked out.

    I understand what the purpose of the Crusade was, but the fact remains, simple as that, that his plan failed because it was based on some very wrong assumptions, coupled with him overestimating his own ability to handle complications, and a lot of people paid the price for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aneurin View Post
    I've never quite been sure why the Emperor didn't just make another set of Primarchs.
    He physically couldn't. Making the Primarchs wasn't just genetics, the Emperor also used sorcery to bargain with the Chaos Powers and then he refused to honour his side of the deal after he had gotten what he wanted. As such, the Chaos Powers withdrew their support and made it their business to upset his plans, more so than had he started the crusade without their help.

    Similarly, the laboratory were he made them was destroyed when the Primarchs were taken away, and the tech in there was unique and irreplaceable, due to it being partly sorcerous and partly archeotech.

    A fourth one won't tell anyone where he'd been or what he'd been up to, and has somehow become two people.
    The Emperor knew that Alpharius Omegon was two beings; they were separate even in their birthing pod before kidnap, as Argul Tal witnessed in The First Heretic. It's strongly implied that the only other people who knew that were Malcador and Horus, especially in the 40k universe when Alpharius was "officially" killed by Rogal Dorn and passed into myth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta
    I understand what the purpose of the Crusade was, but the fact remains, simple as that, that his plan failed because it was based on some very wrong assumptions, coupled with him overestimating his own ability to handle complications, and a lot of people paid the price for that.
    Without doubt. An alternative title for the Great Crusade could well have been "The Emperor deliberately creates Daddy Issues and then leaves Malcador to clean up the mess".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    So anyway... The Emperor probably had a plan for what to do with 20 Primarchs after the Crusade was won, and when that wasn't relevant he cobbled together a plan for what to do with the Astartes (ie, Thunder Warriors mark 2)... but both together went in a way he couldn't have predicted.
    He was going to lock the Primarchs up in his basement the secret mansions located beneath the Palace.
    I don't know when they were build, it could have been after the Primarchs returned, or it could have been the plan all along.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    He was going to lock the Primarchs up in his basement the secret mansions located beneath the Palace.
    I don't know when they were build, it could have been after the Primarchs returned, or it could have been the plan all along.
    Magnus was going to be plugged into the Golden Throne, which at the time was the control panel for the Eternity Gate - the human-built entrance into the Webway. The Emperor only did it in his place because it had to be converted into his life-support machine after the Heresy.
    Presumably there might have been similar roles planned for the others, if they weren't just disposed of.

    The Primarchs' "mansions", if I remember right, were built as a part of the foundations to the Imperial Palace. They were probably meant to be for the Primarchs all along, given that the Emperor intended for them to be born and raised there. Whether or not they were built as living space or as a prison has not really been clarified....
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Magnus was going to be plugged into the Golden Throne, which at the time was the control panel for the Eternity Gate - the human-built entrance into the Webway. The Emperor only did it in his place because it had to be converted into his life-support machine after the Heresy.
    Presumably there might have been similar roles planned for the others, if they weren't just disposed of.
    Which makes it even weirder for him not to include Magnus in that project somehow, given he'd have to find out about it sooner or later anyway.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Tzeentch portrays it to Magnus as being an involuntary and painful thing. Magnus strapped to the throne, his body a husk writhing in constant pain as I recall.

    Obviously this is suspect because it's Tzeentch saying it, but I don't think he ever actually lied to Magnus about anything and it came during his big revelation moment to Magnus. The Emperor always was a 'Greater Good' kind of guy too, so I could easily see him planning to enslave Magnus to the task of maintaining the webway in order to provide a safe FTL system for humanity.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    In all likeliness, the Emperor would have instructed Magnus to take the Throne - not a direct order or demand, but it would have been explained as something that he needed Magnus to do - and Magnus would have obeyed willingly, because he loved his father.

    At that point, the process was not particularly painful, just a matter of will. It only became so when Magnus broke the wards around the Eternity Gate and it was attacked by the daemonic legions; the effort of keeping the Gate sealed became more intense than was ever expected, and the Emperor had to shoulder the burden himself while also projecting the Astronomicon and all the other things that he is suspected of doing at the same time, like sending visions to Sanguinius, directing and conversing with the Custodes in the Impossible City, and (allegedly in some circles) maintaining the psychic projection that was Malcador. [unconfirmed, but still a SPOILER]
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Does anyone know how many Space Wolves there are? It seems like every source is massively contradictory. Some imply that that each Great Company is about the size of a Codex Company, and thus the entire chapter is somewhat larger then a Codex Chapter. Others place it at a oversized chapter, similar in size to the Black Templars (about 3 thousand Astates), and a few make it seem that each Great Company is about the size of a Codex Chapter, making about 12 thousand Space Wolves. Which would make it about half the size it was before the Horus Heresy.

    Personally, I go with the last option. But am curious about other people's opinions.
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    But that's drifting into another discussion, all I wanted is to correct the opinion that Crusade-era Space Marines where by definition "the good guys", they were weapons to be used by whoever gave the command without any hesitation or consideration for human life, even if the guy giving the orders has good intentions, a lot of the things they did could've been done with a massively lower bodycount without endangering the Crusade itself.
    A: I meant good guys in the context of the Imperium.

    B: I also stopped short of saying that the Great Crusade era marines were good guys too, I said that modern marines with their traditions from the Imperial Truth era were the 'good guys', and there is a huge difference there - look at the Heresy Era Space Wolves, and the Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar. Their traditions were founded in a time of optimism and atheism, and are being followed in a time where their followers are restricted to defence and salvation rather than attack and oppression.

    I've never quite been sure why the Emperor didn't just make another set of Primarchs. I mean, yeah, I understand wanting to get the first lot back or at least neutralize them so they don't end up working against him, but it seems a little silly to trust them after Chaos basically stole them. Especially when one comes back with wings, and another with hands of living metal. And a third one's completely insane. A fourth one won't tell anyone where he'd been or what he'd been up to, and has somehow become two people.
    Surely that's just a little bit suspicious.
    It's strongly implied (if not outright stated) that the Emperor made pacts with the Chaos Gods to create the primarchs, and then betrayed them. They likely wouldn't be up for another round.

    Obviously this is suspect because it's Tzeentch saying it, but I don't think he ever actually lied to Magnus about anything and it came during his big revelation moment to Magnus.
    Yeah, Tzeench loves his self-fulfilling prophecies. My interpretation was that Magnus' throne would be this way because of the actions Magnus took breaking through the gate!

    Does anyone know how many Space Wolves there are?
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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinewmire View Post
    It's strongly implied (if not outright stated) that the Emperor made pacts with the Chaos Gods to create the primarchs, and then betrayed them. They likely wouldn't be up for another round.
    Where was that even implied? I've read a lot of out-there and often wild 40k speculation, but I've never even heard of the idea that the Emperor had a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Where was that even implied? I've read a lot of out-there and often wild 40k speculation, but I've never even heard of the idea that the Emperor had a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs.
    That's something I'd have said was implied in 40K but now that you mention it I'm not sure where I read it. I've got a vague idea it was early in the Horus Heresy series but couldn't say ( at the moment) clearer than that
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Where was that even implied? I've read a lot of out-there and often wild 40k speculation, but I've never even heard of the idea that the Emperor had a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs.
    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    That's something I'd have said was implied in 40K but now that you mention it I'm not sure where I read it. I've got a vague idea it was early in the Horus Heresy series but couldn't say ( at the moment) clearer than that
    I'm fairly certain that it was implied when Horus was being shown the Primarch creation chamber. But it might also be the jealousy of Chaos speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Where was that even implied? I've read a lot of out-there and often wild 40k speculation, but I've never even heard of the idea that the Emperor had a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs.
    I specifically remember it being referenced in The First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit. I seem to remember it also coming up in A Thousand Sons, but I won't swear to it as I can't recall the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat
    Does anyone know how many Space Wolves there are? It seems like every source is massively contradictory. Some imply that that each Great Company is about the size of a Codex Company, and thus the entire chapter is somewhat larger then a Codex Chapter. Others place it at a oversized chapter, similar in size to the Black Templars (about 3 thousand Astates), and a few make it seem that each Great Company is about the size of a Codex Chapter, making about 12 thousand Space Wolves.
    Despite there being 12 Companies (rather than a Codex Chapter's 10), the sources I know of tend to suggest that they are significantly smaller than their cousins due to the Canix Helix instability - they physically couldn't make enough Space Wolves to keep them up to strength. As such, assuming that is still true, 800-1000 is probably about right, especially after they were hugely depleted following the Hunt for the Wulfen, the Siege of Fenris, the Third War for Armageddon and the Thirteenth Black Crusade and had to be rebuilt by a huge influx of Primaris Marines.

    What is notable is that their fleet is about twice as big as that of the Ultramarines - but then, Space Wolves are often depicted as there being one Pack (Squad) being sent out on an errand, rather than mass deployments like other Chapters, so twice as many ships doesn't necessarily mean twice as many Astartes.

    Either way; Twelve Thousand is hugely unlikely, though.

    Which would make it about half the size it was before the Horus Heresy.
    Not quite. Estimates suggest that pre-Heresy the Space Wolves numbered 95-100,000 Astartes plus support. Possibly you are thinking of the Salamanders, who have been occasionally numbered around 26,000 at their conception?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    What is notable is that their fleet is about twice as big as that of the Ultramarines - but then, Space Wolves are often depicted as there being one Pack (Squad) being sent out on an errand, rather than mass deployments like other Chapters, so twice as many ships doesn't necessarily mean twice as many Astartes?
    I think Space Wolves also use a wider variety of space ships instead of the standard Space Marine Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. I know that the 6th edition codex talked about them reclaiming space ships from chaos pirates to use and whatnot, so I imagine their fleets include a wider variety craft and models than a normal Chapter might have. They also have deep ties with a Navigator House.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Not quite. Estimates suggest that pre-Heresy the Space Wolves numbered 95-100,000 Astartes plus support. Possibly you are thinking of the Salamanders, who have been occasionally numbered around 26,000 at their conception?
    I remember the Space Wolves being one of the smaller legions. Not as small as either the Salamanders or Thousand Sons, but below the average size, which was in the 100,000 Astartes range. But I think they were smaller then the World Eaters during the Night of the Wolf, although I don't know by how much. While the Ultramarines were much larger then the average.

    But the Canis Helix was no more of a problem in 39k then it was in 30k, and they did not have any reason (that mattered to them) to not remain at full legion strength if they could. Although they did have a lot of disasters hitting them at the end of 40k and early 41k, which would decimate them.


    Although that does bring up a different question. Why are there no Salamander successor chapters? Or if there are, what are they? Both the Salamanders and the Raven Guard were almost wiped out during the drop site massacre. But the Raven Guard rebuild and have plenty of successors chapters, even with the problems they have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat View Post
    I remember the Space Wolves being one of the smaller legions. Not as small as either the Salamanders or Thousand Sons, but below the average size, which was in the 100,000 Astartes range. But I think they were smaller then the World Eaters during the Night of the Wolf, although I don't know by how much. While the Ultramarines were much larger then the average.
    For what it's worth, Inferno says there were about 75,000 Space Wolves at the Burning of Prospero and 20-25,000 who weren't able to join in.

    The Ultramarines book says they had 200,000 at Calth alone.

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    Default Re: Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat View Post
    But the Canis Helix was no more of a problem in 39k then it was in 30k, and they did not have any reason (that mattered to them) to not remain at full legion strength if they could. Although they did have a lot of disasters hitting them at the end of 40k and early 41k, which would decimate them.
    The Canix Helix is a mutation - it's unstable and due to ten thousand years of 'natural selection' it now only works on humans from Fenris, who are the descendants of colonists who underwent gene-therapy in order to better survive on a Death World.

    Back in M31 it wasn't such a big deal - the mutation hadn't yet set in or developed. In M41 it makes a huge difference; it's why the Space Wolves can only recruit from one world, and why all of their successor Chapters (who CAN'T recruit from that world) have failed and become extinct.

    Although that does bring up a different question. Why are there no Salamander successor chapters? Or if there are, what are they? Both the Salamanders and the Raven Guard were almost wiped out during the drop site massacre. But the Raven Guard rebuild and have plenty of successors chapters, even with the problems they have.
    The Black Dragons and the Storm Giants are both suggested to be Salamanders successors, but without proof.

    The reason as to why the Salamanders have so few is because their geneseed is also ridiculously unstable - that's why there were only around 29,000 of them at the Drop Site Massacre, while other Legions were rocking 100,000 or even 250,000 in the case of the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers. Even in M31 it was a problem, and with the decline of technology it has never been solved until Belisarius Cawl unveiled Astartes 2.0 and also when Primaris Marines were introduced.

    The Raven Guard, while depleted, had no such weakness and they were able to found successors at a "normal" rate. Although there is some disparity in how they did that, as after Istvaan V they were said to have only 3,000 Astartes left, but somehow managed to remain as a Chapter AND to have at least 3 confirmed Second Founding successors, with one unconfirmed, only 7 years later.
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